at first i thought they were full of opposites and i know they are two sides of the coin, extreme hostility and extreme politeness because both have the eye view of the dignity of the human person. the hostile think is silence and submission. there is a part to be manipulated, abused and discarded. neither have you of what we owe others by virtue of shared humility e, civility and politeness. >> who are you working for at the time? ...

so, i am honest about my prayers. in the introduction attacked my christianai faith for at home across classical liberal we are freedom fest and on the main stage today. i'm really supposed to be here. there's also a remarkable continuity acrosss philosophical and ethical cultural tradition. the type of principles that help toth flourish. the book is about how to we peacefully cover admits competing which is the essential question. especially unknown at the end. we are in the midst of the 23 --

24 presidential cycle. what i found is there is a singular because this is a timeless a problem. yes, we feel there's a problem with instability right now. but every erara has felt that. to w the most uncivil moment. what my book says is look to other times, other places, other traditions to say how do we provide these times of civility, of selflessness overcoming basic instincts and flourish across different today per. >> what did you find? >> human nature does not change where the same today as it were the dawn of our species humans all kinds of places a been defined by two competing courses love of other and love of self. we are profoundly fully human morally and biologically in the fact of who we are our intentions this is eight timeless problem ate time was a

challenge to civility and to flourish with others across time and across place. but, just as timeless as a solution. the solution is civility. the artrt of human flourishing. the bare minimum of respect it's more than mere politeness. it's more than going to the ritualspr of etiquette. it's not just the technique of politeness the outward form of goodness and virtue. and disposition of the heart. it's a way to see others as our moral equals who are worthy of a bare minimum of all being human. crucially sometimes respecting someone. someone actually loving someone requires telling them he think they are wrong, disagreeing, being impolite, tongue the hard truth engaging in a robust

debate. we are settling for mere politeness for the appearance of virtue and niceness and respect and tolerance but we failed to actually respecthe people when e hold back we actually respect ourselves to' boldly hold back o not speak up we have things to say. stu and alexandra hudson where the timeless principles when it comes to disagreeing with someone politically, how would you approach that? >> one thing i would do and this is what i address in my final chapter on misplaced forgiveness. curiosity is an underrated superpower of the 21st century. we live in an age of categorical, moral certainty where we think we know everything about someone based on one aspect of who they are. they're bidding on oneed thing. who they voted for this one election cycle. we usese edge said there's one thing about you therefore know everything about you. therefore i either went to my life i don't.

and said that categorical black or white thinking what might it mean to be curious to recognize every single one of them are complex. come at the views about the world for many different reasons. what's it like to be curious about those instead of saying this is your view on donald trump i know everything about you. that is soo interesting that you have that opinion. tell me more. how didan you come to that opinion? that's it underrated superpower and not just assuming we know everything about someone based on one aspect of who they are. another thing that would be very helpful especially in her all-encompassingre 2024 presidential election cycle counterintuitively talking about politics. i argue in my book as society and many of us as citizens have made idle because light religion

out of politics and political views. as is traditional touchstones for, family, community and politics in these political candidates. thereis are three symptoms of ts misplaced crisis. it is detrimental to our democracy and our self. one is the way in which people can go from zero -- 60. apoplectic.of just that the mere mention of an issue. you treated something they care deeplyfi about. it is ain symptom of aggravated the aspects of who they are. when you seeee that it's was misplaced or core identity. there court meeting and political issue. a second symptom is everywhere

all the time. previously apolitical venues of life. marie grocery shop, or resent our kids towh school. where we live. now everything has a political dimension to it in the ways that was not the case aga few weeks ago. we are overdoing democracy. we need a breaksy from this. of that ms. plass meeting is a tragic number ofwh people who've ended friendships or family relationships over politics and political disagreement. you see hot button controversial issues they realtors or risk in the relations that are a disagreement hand instead of seeing thatex difference in the context of a 2030 relationship or lifelong friendship they say that's all i need to know i cannot have you my life anymore that is vastly disordered. that's not how it should be.

you mean doing democracy less. recovering things in our lives that give us joy and life like a beautyio and sublime and curiosy were overdrawn democracy and undermining as a result. write your book the soul of civility is a stressor in our nation and in our world problem with instability. >> is a great point. the early draft of your book should not mention donald trump once. i did not want to mention donald trump in my book apart my book is not a political tell all. it's not perfect. i left government as a deeply despondent disillusioned experiencee because i desperatey guarantee part of the t solutio. i wanted my work to be a tool of

reconciliation, healing and dialogue. i did not want. in mentioning trump that's all people will go too. like they were going to judge my whole book on how he treated trump. i did not even mention him. and then i was persuaded to have one paragraph about him. what i say is there is no question donald trump. it is a misguided assessment to say he caused our problems and civility. and i show that throughout the book. the oldest book in the world for millennia ago as the possibilities in grappling with this question of how dois we peacefully coexist for very long time. if we miss and diagnose the problem is still going to be a civility class. controversial public figures,

technology, new things in her world will always trust stress and contribute instability. but it's misguided andan lost. stu and you've now moved to indianapolis from d.c. what were you doing prior to joining the education department? >> guest: i was in a local education policy in milwaukee and wisconsin. i am a history of philosophy undergrad. i love intellectual h history. i love storytelling. but i wanted to understand how ideas could helpp people so i dd didmy masters in public policy. after that got married and lived in milwaukee, wisconsin with mike new husband who was clerking for a federal judge and i was in a think tank. it was my big break to move d.c. bebe offered this post to the federal government was my chance fresh out of grad school or have these ideals of what ideas could

make america's education better and i was so disillusioned while i was in government. [laughter] to see how little could be done. >> host: doocy a difference in d.c. in indianapolis when it comes to civility? >> it's a great question. a room of the day very clearly as follow 2017 i was nine or 10 months into my tenure and we came home onesb day to my husbad who iss originally from indiana said and done with washington. i'm done with d.c. i'm done witha. politics in the swamp to indiana if it was my idea to move there. most talk to one day to move there to be close to his family and have children that he said okay, sounds good. removed indiana a few months later were out there. when i first moved out there i took aov job in government once again in the governor's office. in my mind and making that transition i was escaping the

swamp. the toxicity, the backbiting, the political angle inc. with the poster of blissful of the american midwest rate that was my vision of what i though' i was getting into. when i realized is a human condition doesn't matter the time, place, geography, look out while there's politics in indiana, politics in d.c., the same dynamics is human nature is going to be people angling for power and success. i felt out of the second he focus on this book indiana did teach me a lot about civility. one of my first friends in indiana came up to me after

church one day and said hi, i am joanna taft would you like to porch with a sometimes i have never used purchased as a verb before. i was curious and went home one day it relates joanne is staging a quiet revolution in a related status quo from the vantage point covid stretches across politics, geography, race, to shared space. that is a radical or deeply divided deeply silent moment. i realize her people across the country hundreds of thousands during the same thing they are saying i cannot control who is going to win in 2024. i cannot control itty happened n at city hall but i can control myselflf. i'm s going to choose to make me better place. so what the book is called soulless civility time as solis civility time as principles to

hill society and ourselves. the author. they went on r your screen out talent rally she is the author of thise book. america's american immigration policy. thehave a chapter at beginning of the book called foundation of our national i identity. why do you go back to martin luther and the founding of the country? we can talk about immigration. click think it's very important. many people need to understand what does that mean? some people argue we are not. it's very important to talk about family. because america to somewhat like more is not much against a country it's a country with an ideal.

it actually means something to special people like me authoritarianism that's why it's important it's not just a group of people like the mayflower here. they have brought some of the best ideas in western civilization liberty, property these, they have all of ideas. and something to give us hope. eventually issues forti people o pursue the same dream and without collective efforts it's also a combination of individualism the greatest country in the world. that's why it's important to go back to very early on why

america very different food as americans along before. >> you mentioned youur are in immigrant. what is your story? >> i was born and raised in china. i came to the country 1996 as a student. i became a u.s. citizen in 2013. so between 1996 until 2013 the 17th year. i went to almost all the major legal immigration system. i was so fed up with this. i almost given up. but then does not complain about this how it did not go right. the american way i should fix it. i am a citizen now, i should fix it.

to write this book and talk about but also how can we make the system better? as well as creating for an immigrant. >> host: after 1996 to return to china? >> a return tore visit but never returned to live. >> host: now that you're citizen could you go back? >> guest: oh yes but they're not going to like me very much. [laughter] portals go back to the beginning of your book. what do you think the role of religion or thean importance? >> very much so. in my book i spend a lot of time persecuted for what they believe. they tried to fix this new age want to do that for other people as well.

religion is fundamentally .mportant in our country having religion, especially humanity but at the same time we had insight they all were believers or i believe they believed in the higher super being. i feel that iss important. even the moral clarity how they designed from the declaration of independence was reached. how the constitution would reach. there's a bunch of profound moral clarity.

driven by that moral clarity. this constant uses other providence, i believe that. so it. obviously immigration asa contemporary issue. in your book you talk about some immigration led legislation. 1790, 1795, 1798. what kind of immigration legislation are we talking about? >> historically? historically our country's immigration ---- mike there of . people who do not like to study tend to be underrepresented. that's one aspect was very simple. right thousands of pages it was very simple. just want. [inaudible] that demonstrate good moral character.a and also ate white person. unfortunates how it was. they really emphasized moral

character. from time to time there was a residency requirements but sometimes is two years, sometimes it's five years. i believe that those requirements of roman history it was a kind of roman history. and he learned it from the roman history. i have a stake in the stake. time to build up whether country philosophy laws. for they become naturalized citizens. that's what a legacy iss for. immigration has been very simple for decades and it gradually it became more and more complicated. the system leading today every

succession of government building more and more bureaucracy around immigration. and this is the funny part it's not funny for you. but the funny part is every time they add another layer to the bureaucracy to take care. this is special. but what they end up doing makes it so complicated. at such a hard immigrant. two years ago it suffered engineer protesting. because some of them based on that becomes an agency in charge of citizenship. i has the estimate. some never seen a green card. that's over 100 years to see a green card.

they are educated, they are educated, law-abiding citizens and love america. for over 100 years. incredibly unfair. supposedly end up helping neither. big change in immigration law came in the 1880s. why wasas that? >> it was because. [laughter] it has a lot to do with me. that is special i still get very emotional about chinese immigrants in this country. it means a lot to me as a

chinese immigrant. because of today this is a different kind of discrimination we are not part of america. we did not come here to take advantage of things. i think it's very important to set a record straight. early chinese immigrants have been america. with the agricultureil industry. california it would never have to become the breadbasket of the united states if not for chinese immigrants, korean immigrants, who are in deep waters. cutting dirt with barrels, with hands. i think it's very important. what we see happening in 1880

against chinese immigrants. for chinese immigrants receiving jobs. for their willingness to do anything at any wage in order to survive. and so they persuaded the democrat party representatives in 1882 to pass the china solution act. part of the group. especially after that group instrumentally help build transcontinental railroad. help see the united states into connected east coast to west coast. thousands of chinese immigrants died for doing that. the neat minute finish that work will push out lisa would never become its a threat.

>> host: how long was that exclusion act in place? >> it was in place until the second world war toward the end of the second world war when the united states became allies with china. we went to war against japan. that's when the united states decided to physically cancel the act. from 1990 until 1870 came into the country. after that the slowdown or speed up? thee actors from immigrant own country with devastation, or

persecution. pushing peopleun wanted to misld the country. it takes a special kind of person the language in the and theculture to immediately go somewhere. devastation to push people out who want to make that journey. is a push out factor. and then every generation after they came here then they joined this -- they're willing to work for anything for dirt cheap wage. the big can become an opt out

threat. there willing to do anything. even though that's not what america is about. every time you see immigration you see this approach to try to push people out and say we need to set ait barrier. we need to we see this argument again and again. >> host: in your book you spend a bit of time talking about 19204 immigration act what did that do? >> drastically lowers the quota for immigrants in the united states. this is right after the big wave. basically you can see from the statistic and that also of that

act. also very strong. i don't have to chinese immigrants.. in 1920s during this wave of isolationist movement. also the exclusion act in the asian country are not allowed to help citizens. park southern europeans are restricted to where they? >> yes. >> what did the great depression due to immigration?

>> i think the great depression, every time with the economic disaster such as the great depression happened people became very fearful. which is understandable. people here are dual citizens and struggle to support a family for the struggle to find a job. whenever we experience economic crisis like that the isolationist will when the day. we don't need immigrants you have enough jobs forde america. it's understandable but as we can see that of the economic system is what we haven't the ability of as a free people so

youu think it's barrier every will have more. again the idea must have proven to the rest ofer america that we are here to help grow. >> 1940 was alien registration act. and in 1952 the word white was removed from immigration, why? >> it was a tremendous accomplishment. even though i do not particularly like that while but i think is a giant step in the right direction. that agent for the first time asian immigrants like me who were not born here can finally applyco and have opportunity to become a naturalit