about low probability. so it has a political consequences particularly for our trust init institution. that makes sense. >> host: as a university and left-leaning academia and more or less lending department of sociology and having the views that you have, have you ever been canceled? >> i haven't. i don't know that i have any views in particular. i am not telling anyone what their views should be on anything. most of the time i don't know what i think about those things. i can imagine lots of different arguments.s >> host: is that advantage or disadvantage? >> guest: i think for what i do it is an advantage.

i have a tolerance for uncertainty and political topics and it's bottomless. so like for me it's just i just think it's interesting i just like thinking about and so i think i think i've been able to communicate to students that i'm not like here's what's going on. if you want to you know what i'm also try i also try, you know, just be careful like i don't want people insulting each other talk all kinds of things in my classes, like there are not topics that are off the table with of the things that we do that i think is helpful is we don't i don't set up classroom kinds of conversations a way that's about like, you, don, and what do you think and what do you, mary think. and mary, can you explain to john why being pro-choice is important to you like whatever. like it's much more like, what could someone think? what would it look like? >> what would it look like and getting people the permission including myself the permission to understand that questioning an idea doesn't mean disagreeing

with it necessarily and playing with an idea doesn't necessarily mean endorsing. so like, for example, if i say to students, why is slavery bad? i'm not arguing that i think it is not bad. i'm saying like can we think there'ss still value, can we put words to why it is bad. i'm not saying it is not bad. right, so giving people this space to like i think that that -- i'm not arguing for anything. and so i think that -- that's not i don't mean that as a manipulative thing that is how i -- think it's important to run a classroom. >> one last quote from the certainty tryout cancel culture i would be tied with cultural appropriation when it comes to the frequency of being brought up in class. itn is another topic where once it comes up people nod in the pier to have a shared understanding of what it was that struggle to define it

clearly and i use that term cancel culture. >> yeah. there are those i would say that's yes. w those are two topics that often come up in class with students. and people think that -- we -- it is like shared understanding but once you sort of dig in and start asking questions, and i go into a fair amount of particular culture appropriation example i talk about that a bunch in the book. all of these conclusions that we draw there are questions there. find the question. if you think that it is obvious and you think that people who disagree are idiots or hateful. that should be your cue that there's something, you may end up -- you don't have to change your mind you may i end up with the same opinion that you had before yet that is still your cue to start to clarify and question your thinking. because it's just -- not the world is not that obvious. the problems are not that obvious and when they are --

actually the more egregious they are, sometime people will ask are you trying to both sides of slavery and the sans no. not at all and the reason why is because actually the worst something is, the more odious thee more -- horrific something is, the easier it is to name what principle rule value et cetera is being violated for me. so for when it comes to slavery maybe it is something like i believe that all lives have equal moral value. or -- that no human being should enslave another or -- someone could still challenge me on those i'm not -- i don't a little harder for me to understand what the argument would look like but i don't need to both sides of this. very clear for me and i can say why. why that's right, why i'm disagreeing with. >> the intook called the

certainty subtitle is why we need to question ourselves more and how we can judge others less the author, university of illinois professor ellona. >> thank you peter. now we want to introduce you to cooper book is call thed put y'all back in chains joe biden's policies hurt black americans, mr. cooper that's a pretty strong title. >> well i thought it was needed because it's like a counterfactual our president often says that he's the champion of black americans. that his policy have not been the champion of black americans, in fact, they're quite unpopular. what a lot of people that realize and this' is what i -- the reason that i wrote the book. black americans are assumed that since the large percentage are

democrats, that they're also woke progressives they are nos at a group. >> some but like their woke message and any group. if you compared the woke progressives view on capital punishment you would be shocked to find that black americans die verge if you talk about crime during the george floyd riots numbers were a coming out often about whether we need less law enforcement or more law enforcement. black americans in many polls whether there was gallop were saying they wanted more police not less. so why was the defund the police movement so visible? so in many ways, most of america feels blamed for the polite of black america.

now, what booker t. washington said what frederick douglas said was leave black people alone because the things that you're trying to do on their behalf are horrible. many new stories now have stopped covering the serious level of crime when woke v.a.'s won't prosecute. here's what they will cover. when a tourist comes to town and gets harmed or injured. when a break-in into someone's house in newport beach those kinds of stories are still making the news of what is not making the news are the overwhelming number of black americans who are victimized almost systemically and when officers in chicago, in detroit, with claims of vaccine a lot of progress.in just seeing police officers

leave new york city. we need those officers especially in black communities. >> one the charts that you have in your book is about prison. explain that, please. >> so in the beginning of the 20th century, black men were least likely to be in federal prison. if you say that the trend that we see now the phenomenon that we see now is an outworking of slavery what explains this talk? the truth of the matter is this, if all the police did was arrest people and convict them who were lasting name mcdonald's for the crime of that mcdonalds have committed prison would be overflowing with these mcdonald's. would we then argue that somehow our prison system is

anti-mcdonald's? when young black youth and that's what i talk about in the chapter ---- young black youth are overwhelmingly more likely to be the victimizers when a grandmother reports to the police that she was assaulted. that she was raped -- woke progressives would have us believe that she was identifying as a plaque person that did that even though it was a white person. that dupght make any sense. some of the brutal crimes these people are reporting. they're telling us who did it and allll too often the most likely victimizer is someone between age of 14 and 28 who happen to be black. you're getting between 35 and 45% of all of the felonies being committed by this smaller cohort

of people. is it no wonder that they're disproportionately arrested and behind bars. what should we be doing to prevent people from assaulting grandma whom doing a g heel invaition. that's a conversation that we ought to be having. not a conversation that says, well he really didn't have any choice. he had to do it. the issue of abortion this is a quote from the book the abortion industry preys on blacks. preys, why did you say that? >> one of the founders of the planned parenthood was a real bona fide racist we overuse the word today any word that might ofngd a black person or minority is i called racist. the reason it is actually the believe that there's a

measurement you can look at dna and say one race group was inferior with that's what she believed and she often pushed to try to use abortion and contraception as a way to get those communitiesti that she believed were inferior. today planned parenthood even though it says we don't any of those view of margaret finger. disproportionately locate their facilities inn the place where march greet i think or would have recommended them. let's change it out. where does david duke want the abortion clinic to be placed? planned parenthood today would be in the same locations that david duke were asked. we should ask ourselves why are taxpayers funding this and last

point on the abortion issue. if the abortion rate which is so devastating in the black community were not black americans, would actually today be the second largestth nick group? you're not the largest second ethnic group we're the third largest ethnic group and we're rapidly declining in california we'rewe the fourth largest ethnc group. you can't slaughter as many people without it having the impact. how many members of congress, how many senators? how many doctors? are no longer here because we have systemically encouraged people to swash life rather than to say it is valuable and precious. what could we do to make it a success and achievement? >> you report that the black population in america is about 13% of our overall population. but 30 to 40% of all abortions

are done on african-american women. if that's the case, are, are they being victimized or is this a service that they're looking for? >> i -- i know we're not supposed to say holocaust i would just say -- whenen the devastation of population removal has occurred, it's probably better if people say to you and your community this is a service not a disservice. let the impact true nonetheless. now, not everyone person that gets an abortion not even half was people that get an abortion but significant percentages of women say they regret the decision because they didn't fully understand. when we asked that people see the child in utero, via video there are folks that say no,

don't do that because a woman might choose not to have the abortion. so we let the ignorance in order to achieve. >> cooper author of put y'all back in chains what's your background? >> i'm a native texan worked on capitol hill used to be a regular on c-span when i was a staff member on capitol hill but i relocated back to point blank, and i continue regularly talking about and talking to my community about important issues. >> you said you were a regular. how no >> you would call me up and say you want me to do your morning show. you have really great calling shows in the morning. and sometimes you do a republican and democratic stafferu and stagger it do the republican staffer and then the democratic but this was during the 90s right after a newt gingrich came into office my

author was army he was the majority leader at the time. >> you are associated with projects 21 and the national leadership -- the national leadership republic policy research. did i get that right? >> national center for leadershipye republic -- >> that is correct. >> an organization of black americans who are trying to promote the idea that black americans are not uniformly liberal. black americans have a diversity of opinion on a lot of issues. tax policy, abortion policy, and we make sure that that word gets out. we were created during the rodney kingro riots a bunch of blackh americans responded to maxine waters who said this kind of nearly a billion plus dollars worth of damage is normal. for black people when they're upsets and we reform to say that's not what black people think.

that's what -- criminalized people think some ofo whom might be black and the national center for public policy research focuses on environmental issues, premarket issues, and the like. >> cooper another issue that you take on is economics. and the chapter title is bidenomics is lynching black america's economy. so -- a lot of people don't realize that there are some factors about black american as a group that you could argue, for instance, a a lower percentage f black americans choose the medical care, position field of study than the population at large. aa higher percentage choose education and teaching. a significant portion of black america work in the public sector. a higher percentage of black americans work in public sector

than anyone else. so what i wanted to do was forget out what is happening with black america from an economic perspective given where we are. it is very difficult unless you'recu the bidens or you're a nancy pelosi to become a multi, multimillionaire fromm a government job it is very difficult possible but very, very difficult school teachers, firemen, police officers, and my family, my mother, my father, my myself, four for four were government employee. i worked in congress my father worked for the city of houston my mother was a school teacher and my brother worked for county government. we represent some of the regular ways of black, so black americans start off at a financial deficit since those

kinds of jobs don't allow you to leave 100,000, 200,000 to your children so they get a leg up. then you get are the to buy a house that means that you're more likely to get an adjustable rate mortgage. when the federal reserve starts hiking the adjustable, mortgage rates, the interest rates, black americans more than any other group feel the pain. more black americans now are finding that they're being closured upon because their quote was going to get a 6% rate and rates keep dropping to refinance at four. that's not what rates are doing. if you started at 2021 you're at 9 now. that is -- a high, high level. during the truch trump years

black americans according to ford set records for the number of f-150 pickup trucks they bought during the biden years repo man set record numbers of takebacks of the vehicles that could no longer be afforded. it is harmful the way the president's policies have made it slight annoyance if you make more than 75,000 a year in america, his policies have been a slight annoyance. but ifgh you make under $50 it s almost hell only on earth for you and black americans are disproportionately more likely to be under 50 than 17 5. his policy target those people regardless off race, since blacs are there more blacks are hurt. >> cooper going from trucks into what you call energy poverty. for blacks --

>> so another issue that we've seen is that all of us have to pay for our electricity. under the trump administration energy as a cost to the average family reached some of the lowest levels. but under the biden administration, energy as a percentage of the household income dramatically increased and what that meant was that if you are a black household, you find yourself having to make tough choices. pay the electric bill get the medicine go to the grocery store. black american suffer more from spike in energy prices. not just at the gas tank. you look at the electric bill that's what i meant when i said earlier, if you make 175,000, it's an annoyance when you see your electric bill is up 25 or 35 dollars for the month.

maybe even 50 for the month. but if you're on a tight, tight budget 25, 35, or 50 dollars every month can push you over the top. >> your book back in chains you look at the issue of equity versus e equality. >> so we have been given sort of a fools choice. undo the perception of unfairness and injustice. andd let's just start equalizing outcomes. that's equity. whereas what we ought to be trying to do is saying that all americans as our founding premise that all americans are created equal. all citizens are created equal. from the beginning we didn't fully live upin to that. but we've now jumped over that to some citizens need to be more

equal thanmo others. now, theyha call it equity. butt if you say that the son ofa black engineer who just didn't score well on tests will still get into a top tier school maybe harvard, maybeen yale and then a kid who does father has a minimum wage job who hit books supersuperhard and scored 5% higher on exams sorry we have enough. that kind of equity actually creates -- when the supreme court ruled that harvard and these other elite institutions could no longer use affirmative actions

they did surveys. black americans agreed because in the equity argument is that somehow thosese blacks either deserve it or wouldn't be able to get it otherwise, and what when i was a kid my grandmother assured me, assured me you hit the books. you study, you sacrifice you effort anything you want in america is possible. now one of the things that i said in the book about our -- our former president mr. obama -- wait model potentially of what's possible. when we became president, no european nation had a minority. we had seen women as prime ministers in the u.k. and in germany. but we had not seen any nonlight european leading these countries. when america did that, that was are a first. starting to see a little bit more now. things that barack have doned

notwithstanding his policies on energy -- on healther care, on internatiol force andnd power, he could have said to students, all over america -- hit the books. study, apply. in america you can do whatever you want. you can be president. he could have done that. instead he often said america is such a bad place that if you don't let me help you, you'll never make it. >> mr. cooper in your view do we have a race relation issue in this country? >> we have an artificially created race relation issue you want to talk about where america really is. every year since 1980, racial intermarriage is increased in someea decades dramatically so there's never been a decade since 1980 when fewer whites or

blacks or inner marry than the year before as i said in some decades that's been like a 20% drop. people can't be loving one another while saying all of their neighbors hate people who look like them. that's just not true. the eoc is saying that work place investigations are declining with regard to black americans, in fact, anti-semitism is a far higher area of investigation over the last decade, and anti-asian hostility hate and acts of crime are spiking with regards to the eeoc. the measures of whether or not black americans are being unfairly treated mistreated in america the evidence doesn't show this. now let's turn immediately to law enforcement. the truth of the matter is considering the number of

victims who identify black as their victimizer, versus the actual number arrests, blacks are notar arrested at the same level. if blacks were arrested at the same level as victims who identify them we would have an even higher number. the fact is that most law enforcement most police departments are intimidated by this idea that they will be perceived as being antiblack. you can't let someone get away with robbery because you hate them. it's got to be something else. the last point i'll is it took the supreme court stopping affirmative action to end it because -- universities, law schools are so committed to the idea. how can we say that america is displaced and so hostile to

blacks or minorities in general. who designed the cover to put y'all back in chains? >> so i asked for something the publisher did the design. but i asked for something that reminded us of lbj policy of giving people public housing facilities. i today wouldn't wish on my worst enemy the sort of public housing facility that were the norm in the 60s and the 70s, in fact, even today what we see are a large number of people where there's multigenerational poverty. not just mom went in, her kids got their own apartment later and then her kids got their own apartment. all t of these hopes dashed ando i wanted to make sure that we talked about that and they had these chain length fences around them so as to, quote, prevent

factors from coming in but in many cases just trapped people inside. you know, the president said when he was a vice president that if mitt romney were elected president, black americans would be put back in chains. >> cooper, put y'all back in chains the nail of the book subtitle how joe biden's policies hurt black americans. thank you for spengtding few minutes with us here on booktv. >> i really appreciate it. if you're enjoying booktv sign up using the qr code on the screen to receive the schedule of upcoming programs, author discussions, book festivals and more, booktv every sunday on c-span2, or any time online at booktv.org. television for serious readers. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> weekends on c-span2 are an

intellectual feast every saturday american history tv documents america's stories. and on sundays, booktv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors funding for c-span2 comes from these television companies. and more -- including charter communications. charter is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet providers. and we're just getting started. building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. ♪ ♪ >> charter communications along with these television companies supports c-span2 as a public service. > i thank you for being here today to discuss your new book. what went wrong with capitalism. why don't we just start off by answering the basic question, what did go wrong with capitalism? >> yeah. i think that what's happened capitalism has been distorted.

much beyond what it found and had in mind what they had in mind for capitalism was a system which promotes competition, promotes creative destruction, promotes charm and instead we have a distorted form where the average person in america and, in fact, across the western world feels that the system is almost rigged against them. one of the basic pieces of capitalism is that it should at least give the sense that there's going to be equality of opportunity. i think the average american today feels that that is not even a quality of opportunity for them let alone the fact, of course, capitalism naturally gravitates itself to inequality of outcomes but that supposed to be based on -- so in short i think what's gone wrong with capitalism today is that it is being really distorted as argue in the book that the cities of government