debatebe out here is great. the fact i'm able to put this argument out here is terrific. i got to this argument out in china and even in places like india the fact i can put this argument out there and the fact it's early days has just come out. i get a lot of positive feedback from the rights and the left on some of these issues, it makes me optimistic the fact that someone put it this is a capitalist critique of capitalism. i say yes there is so much have seen this and also from the outside i have a seen it as an immigrant who gave himnt a socialist country by the facts i can put this argument out there. we can have this hour-long debate here and discussion still give me reason in the end america will course correct. >> thank you i really appreciate it. the book is what went wrong with capitalism. so thank you very much. >> thank you, enjoyed that.

♪ if you are enjoying a book tv sent for our newsletter use the qr code on the screen to receive a schedule of upcoming programs, author discussions, book festivals and more. book tv every sunday on cspan2 or any time online apple tv.org. television for serious readers. ♪ weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday in american american historytv documents am. and on sunday book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for cspan2 comes from these television companies and more including ♪ ♪. ♪ where are you going? i may be a better question is, how far do you want to go? and how fast you want to get

there? now we are getting somewhere. so let's go. ♪ let's go faster ♪ ♪ let's go further ♪ ♪ let's go beyond ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ along with these television companies support cspan2 as a public service. >> now i'm book tv willing to introduce you his newest book is called the new puritans how religion and social justice captured the western world. before we get into your book mro the american audience regrets te going to locate my name is andrew and royal i have a writer, i'm a broadcaster, i am a comedian i have a show on uk channel everett said that which is called free-speech nation. interested in and i also write

various comedic projects plays in that kind of thing precooked how to describe it as a channel? >> i would describe it as -- well, it was set up to provide within the immediate landscape in the uk an alternative voice. in other words uk with ideological bias shall we say from the main stream media channel. if you take bbc news is not really a bias because they do try their best to be impartial. there's an ideological bias when it comes to issues of what i might cut the critical solstice devotional the channel was set up for conversations to be had if are not being had elsewhere. >> besides the bbc would you say sky news might have a bias issue as well? >> ideologicaly? yes. similarly channel four news. channel four news. i would say all of them.

i was said they do try their best to hold people to account on both sides of the aisle. when it comes to issues of gender, race, the identity movement that receives how much control of the various institutions in the uk, and certainly canada. so you need to have another channel to take place. brings invoices from the left and right. it always goes out of its way to hear it's not an echo chamber. they want if you and i were walking on the street in london right now, people stop you? >> it happens occasionally. [laughter] i would sit on occasion. [laughter] see what when you are at oxford he got a phd in renaissance ande poetry, why?

>> to be inwa academic. i was also a lecturer when his s finishing my doctorate. ultimately in a different way. be what what was the faith that moves you? >> at the same time i was also writing plays in performing standup. and i suppose it just deviated. whatever you do you'll end up running around the quad screaming. i did find spending all the time in the library. i used to work a lot withd my manuscript.ar there's only one part to do that. it's actually it's used in the

harry potter film at the library of hogwarts. it's very dusty. they spend their whole lives there and rather get out and do something else. kukla's turn to the new book the new puritans, who are they? >> that is just an analogy really. you had a sense of their own unworthiness before god. they certainly were not i declare his nucleus. what i mean is the zealot who would like to reorganize society around the group identity of pro- censorship. who would like to curtail the art so it becomes a conduit for thee message. the comparison appears to makeak

sense what appeared in london in 1642 when they were with the puritans gain control of parliament. he of a similar kind of thing now with the woke movement if you want to call it that. activists will say we need these combinations to these sites so that people are not corrupted. if you watch, it shows in the uk on bbc streaming services. all sitcoms will be removed. there's a veryof famous one unzipping this episode called adjournment and the whole scene taken out. there is use of racial. the whole joke is that the expense of the notary old man and so it's an idea they need to sanitize art and comedy as it reflects this idea of equity,

inclusion, sky on quite a lot. comedians in the uk are still policing each other and making sure they don't joke about the wrong thing. it'sy a disaster for society me and more generally. and the reason i want to compare them to the puritans, and the book i specifically mention salem. what happened in salem, massachusetts. you have a group of young girls who claim they can see devils in the shadows that witchcraft all that is point their finger and make an accusation. it is very so much of the accusations flying around right now to point the figure and say your homophobia, you are a nazi, glorify rights. and the accusation is sufficient if someone condemns. this is very similar to what happened. and similarly in salem when people stood up and said this isn't real. the girls are not being

truthful. she was hanged for being skeptical. similarly it now very, very few people are on board. and yet, you would think there's an established consensus along their line. they are so intimidating to people very, very wary. though i don't agree with any of this. you will find unconscious bias in training connected by hr departments. very few people believe they have any effect. thus not up for debate. its shows they have no effect on this whatsoever. i don't think is my employee of the right to be probing around. shut off what ultimately happened. it was not really the girl screaming about which is. they were not reading the

problem. that's identical to what's happening now. would not matter if they were caught in it that would matter the major figures in major institutions they go along with it. that's at work is the kind of analogy to show firstly how this kind of power grab works. also how we might overcome. >> do you think in a sense the conservative party in britain capitulated to this movement? >> yes the worst has been

presided over. and often understood is the battle of left and right. itri something that transcends left and right. in the uk and even more so the labour party. posted by every level and it really isn't. >> from your book when bad ideas were allowed to spread unchecked they take on an allusion that incontrovertible ability they are captured by dangerous ideologies resistance that few will there to attempt. >> yes, would like to comment on

that? there's a lot at stake. almost like being burned at the stake here. you can pretty melt pretty much make yourself unemployable and that is not true. in all industry in the uk in the national health service people aree wearing rainbow lanyards d if you don't do that it may be that person is on board with the message. very encouraged to write their pronoun which is open meetings with use of pronoun. what that does is almost a declaration of faith. it's almost a purity test. how are you going to respond? the vast majority of people genderen identity.

don't believe we might not align. so why are all the people playing along with thehe declaration? on this day that's debated the ministry of defense are putting out tweets. they areri not getting their priorities right there. that is the declaration. if you actually believe it. i mention the idea of courage they need to know there is a new religion that has seized control of the corporate world all other majorr institutions politics, academia, education and incredible power. incredible clout.

it will be the underdog they'reg for the marches. there's something quite incoherent about this. so my argument there is have some courage. we don't believe in this we believe in progressive values. on the content of their character not the color of their skin. that's up the likes of robert d'angelo to actually know, to achieve the idea of colorblindness. it's a form of white supremacy and there you have it. claimant effectively martin luther king was a racist. everything is upside down. what we should be reiterating it's not that we don't notice race or c race we don't treat it on an equal basis. we should be striving for that

again so you don't have situations. parents were affected in order to have conversations with the teacher they were put in separate rooms segregated children on the basis of their skin color antiracism. i would like to believe there was a consensus that racial segregation was wrong. where are we implementing that in the name of the ei? >> you write about jk rowling getting in trouble over pronouns. >> a very goodd example. she believes but it's not possible to change that.

that's not a belief it's a matter fact no human being is ever change that should not be a controversial. she is also saying women rights depend on a recognition because of safeguarding is very important given the vast majority of men towards women particularly mountain comes a hospital or combination, prison, domestic violence domestic violence reputation. there is not such a facility men who identify as women. don't matter if they think of themselves as women that's a reasonable request. as hateful as it bigots on the basis of no evidence at all. this is anotherex example they

demanded everyone else believe it. 1984 by george orwell the end of the novel parenting the party line. there's no other purging the line that is not to say called what they want the songs are encroach out people'sop rights it's one that we are able to say that. >> host: entered doyle a person like jk rowling has the clout to

defend herself. and to not worry too much. >> you make a very good point as far as cancel culture predominately affects those they do not have the financial resources or they do not have the connection. as a bit of a mess of cancel culture. you hear it's been canceled, celebrities, it's news. when kevin hart lost his gig because ofgo a joke he told 10 years ago. that was big news. but even with someone like kevin hart he is a fairly rich successful guy losing that gig it should not have happened but it's not going to ber the end of the world for him. but, the o people who are really the casualties of cancel culture is the guy who works for supermarket gets attacked because of a post he put on facebook and cannot find employment again.

the gender critical eminence you sent up and say i'm not going to say my pronouns at work. i'm not going to pretend men and women and lose her job as a result of that. there's a group in the uk called free speech union which has been invaluable he has been inundated people have lost their jobs. her having their deeply held beliefs. those are the peopled who are really affected by cancel culture. jk rolling is uncomfortable. she's far too rich, party powerful. that isn't to say she has not been' horribly courageous. she did not the say the step it would've been easier life for her not too. because as a result she receives daily threats of murder, threats of violence because remember the people who position themselves onmo being on the right side of history can be the most downright cruel individuals in the world but youto know that those of the most tyrannical

people the most wrote most cruel and the inquisition strapping people to iraq thought they were doing so on the side of the angels. so i have nothing but admiration for jk rowling. don'tst have the resources to do the same. the scottish government new hate speech law this is the law that could criminalize people progress to actual law? works in actual lawaw. it came in on april the first, april fools' day. with thought as a joke but it wasn't. you could beat criminalize for something you said in the privacy of your own home. you could be criminalize for a formatter of opinion pretty coud be criminalized to say trans women are men. so jk rowling tweeted out some opinions that would violate scottish hate speech come at me, come arrest me. she also said if any other woman

tweets outaf opinion the police went after her should tweet the identical opinion therefore they would also have to arrest jk rowling. but they're not going to do that. they do not want that publicity. smp which is the party in scotland until the last election. they were ideological they brought in the census movement they wanted to implement a law that would criminalize the start of the salt. it has been tested. went to scotland on april the third,me did make comedy night e have a night commonly unleashed. we told jokes because the police inen scotland and readiness had been undergoing training of how

to deal jokes people found offensive. we went up therere and told a lt of offensive jokes. no one arrested us. technically they could have under the new law. >> have you ever been canceled because of yourou views i think partly because my job is always to been to express myself honestly. if i was still a schoolteacher as i used toe be i would not be able to express myself of the way i do or if i did i probably would be canceled. i never have been i can write what i genuinely believe. look there are jobs i'm not going to get i'm not going to get onto a bbc comedy show. they can express the views. i don't particularly want those jobs are covered covet those jobs i would much rather be in a position where state what i can

think, write the books i want to write. i can do that much more healthy. >> just go back to the new puritans the culture wars early understood is the attempt to destroy the progress of social liberalism in favor of a return to the politics of position. through an imagined dreamscape with ashes and is flourishing which inli turn justifies the aggressive demolition of liberal system that is failed to bring about the desired utopia. >> it's a big complicated because of the american definition. in the uk we say someone is liberal s to traditional liberal valueses individual autonomy. that notion is you should have the right to do whatever he wants, say whatever you want. you are encroaching on the rights of others.

it means you do not get to prevent someone from having a job simply because they are gay, or black, or whatever it might be. you do not get to cancel other people's views. a plurality of views and tolerance.e. of course in the u.s. when people say a liberal they select the democrats. an ulcer in the liberal party the word is fraught with various definitions. i am being very clear in the book. what i mean by liberalism the old-fashioned definition what i believe to be the prevailing definition. what i am saying in those underpin functioning democracy what you'd call a constitutional republic. those are important values. let them sit at our peril. at the moment there is the narrative brewing that neo-nazis

and fascism is on the rise. genuine neo-nazis in the uk. you could very fill this very, very few. and yet we are told there absolutely everywhere. the word nazi is subjected to promised to do muted of its meeting. at someone you believe you cannot chang' that. even someoneme who wants to preserve free speech. even that is treated with suspicion now by many people. they think the nazis with free speech d they don't know their history, do they. we don't allow false narratives to flourish. people are crying nazi what reserve that word for people rather than people who just

believe. cooks and or doyles of the subtitle of your book out religion and social justice captured the western world what's your role of religion in this a conversation? >> as an analogy. a lot of people find it very, very confusing. the word that describes the movement seemed to be the opposite of what the movement aims to achieve. so they describe themselves as progressive. but the up is regressive. they describe themselves as they talk about social justice. what they actually achieve is quite the opposite. antiracist. the phrase antiracist rehabilitates the new form of immigration seeks to see it first and foremost and secondarily their individual characteristics as human beings. people are confused. they hear about a movement that calls itself awoke and progressive and antiracist.

they want freedom, liberty and all of those words. i want to be part of that. and then they look a bit closer and it's exactly the opposite. so in order to make it accessible what i try to do in the book make this analogy with religion. all of a sudden it becomes comprehensible. religious fundamentalistsli believe all kinds of nonsense and they do so because they have belief and ideology, a structure. the notion not just religion you could beat marxism, it could be any set of rules that have provided for use used to surrender and are effectively reading from a script. this makes sense. why should we segregate by skin

color? about freedom of speech. it does not make sense into a seat in religious terms. why are people saying we have an innate soul of which there is no scientific evidence? again that make sense in religiousms terms and analogizig out of the doctrine half the church how can a piece of bread actually become the flesh of christ? that makes sense in religious terms but not in scientific terms. that's what the transit movement is to believe. a man can physically become by declaring it to be so. so, it is a way to make acceptable what i consider to be an incoherent movement. it does work. and does not seem to take up people got it. and they understand why they have to declare fealty to it and await the church needs to obey you go to church everynd week

otherwise will burn you at the stake. same thing. cooks want to ask about two other books before we close here. woke socialist justice and my first little book of intersectional activists. >> ousted the character who was in other words upper-middle-class. very wealthy, privileged, she could see racism anything. she wants the sense of you she doesn't agree with her i create that character on twitter that's wheree the activists were predeath their playground. that's where they consolidated their dominance. i wrote a couple of books coming out against my will. my first book of activism was deliberate response to all thehe

books in the children's books. books such as antiracist baby baby's a book called woke there's a feminine baby all these books aimed at little kids. 5-year-old guides to genderli identity.th too serious not binary is not somethingit people children can possibly comprehend. it's adults trying to indoctrinate and impose their religious values on the young. you can have them forif life. it's common sense. that was a reaction to that. and it says it all. my little book of activism you demand that they learn. my idea was to try to -- you can