island, new york. they fought the battle saratoga. they fought battle of germantown. they fought in battles around new york city. these canadians were primarily in the northeast and they also had correspondence, their friends and family in canada knowing full well that no one was punished for being favorable to the americans. it would have been easy them to slip across. but repeatedly in their letters they assert their rights as we are part the cause. we are part of this larger movement of liberty. they embrace this idea, but they also begin to encourage americans. you know, you did tell us that canada would be free. what happened to that. and throughout the whole invasion, they're trying to keep while they're down. the states are continually petitioning. can we just go invade canada one more time? one more time. a second time to the right. like we'll get it and marquis de lafayette is in favor of how are the french? french government says? i don't think so. we don't want americans having any more land in the north american continent. ultimately these regiments fought through across the american court across the

northeast middle colonies. and at the end of the war, they standing guard duty around york, making sure that the british, in fact leave their leaves. the united states fight after the w ty began petitioning congress. they wait in refugee camps. their are down there and they're petitioning to have lands that congress promised them. many setedn this region, actually right here in area they formed. and as hly mayer suggeed they formed kind of a buffer zone. they performed one act of service. that way, if there was ever another invasion, who would be on the front lines? but the frenchanians who had fought throughout thehe canadians are emphasizing their ideological to the united states. and despite the fact they lost lands, treasure, business. they remained in united states. and i would suggest that from their letters, one of the primary reasons that we can't say it's the whole reasons because of ideology. these very men from, their

comm he said, these very men who l shared in every danger, toil, fatigue who have beenful costs in their duty, will not parti of the blessings of peace which the citizens of these united states will perfectly they being secluded from their native country, they therefore are still attached to the cause in rather than returned, neglected, and despite as willing to partake of blessings of h they have was unremitted plan and fatigue assiste obtain the this. majority by any means.numerical 400 people out of the whole continental army is pretty pitiful, but it does show an interesting of how ideology is transforming the atlantic world transforming the way people, their connections to governments, the fact that people who do not up raised inculcated their families in the rights of englishmen rhetoric could view these rights and sees them as their own and say that this is our rights, our god given rights as part of the

empire and eventually move it to be as part of our rights as citizens of the united states. this is a powerful moment of transnational appeal of american ideology. it challenges the way we think about how congress is seeing in the world, how congress is wanting to broaden its appeal and reject its older past traditions of england. while the americans were certainly very conservative in many ways drawing on older traditions, on unlocking in theory, on these older whig ideology, i suggested perhaps the american revolution was in fact as revolutionary people said, in part because, their laying aside past past ideas, such as a protestant supremacy and arguing that the rights of englishmen extend to all who are willing to fight and, defend it. thank you. we'll start the online question. actually, it's on table question

because it's my i'm better. i'm curious about the the impact of the exodus of these soldiers on. well on week ideology as it may or may not have developed in canada. you know does this does this contingent of troops end up becoming an effective buffer in 1814, say, or there a legacy of you know some lasting part of this whig ideology that infiltrates canada in the 1760s and seventies that survives through to the lower canadian rebellions in the 1830, for instance. yeah, i haven't researched that far forward. i do see british officials occasionally. it's those same canadians. but what i really see a lot of is canadians. the border is very porous. canadians may these canadians get lands here and then go visit grandpa back in french canada and they're sharing these ideas

these and they're coming back and forth across the border. so while i haven't researched as fully yet, i think that is a potential avenue i some of rhetoric that these 1820s that i've seen definitely mirrors some of the rhetoric that was coming out of this but maybe i'm just overextending and getting too excited about these canadians and giving them more weight than they may have had. so hopefully that is it. so this might be outside of the scope of your research. yeah. i was wondering if, as one of the motivations because of of the. one of the canadians joined with the american forces, i was wondering if one of their motivations may have been kind of like a french or a french identity to create of like a french, a french state in quebec that would be more kind of the united states of quebec for lack of a better term. so i was wondering if there any indication of that. yeah, i mean, i haven't seen necessarily like a french

nationalism appearing in part because this group of who i call french canadian whigs. they're a group of anglo french canadians who kind of together and are a little bit ostracized at first and then become more popular among maybe. and then they have to all get out of dodge, you know. so i haven't seen that, but i don't think that that's doesn't mean it's not there yet another online. yes. so one of our online attendees asks understand that during the 1775 invasion of canada, there was little support by french canadians to help the americans. how does this, with ideology being important among the common population? yeah, that's a great question. i would suggest as a little bit of historical mythmaking from canadian historians of the 1920s that has remained very popular. there's a lot of historian, scholar like mark anderson, holly maier, if you look at the

documents from british officials, they are furious at canadians now. i will say that the questioner is right the elites of canada. you have very little elite participation on the side of the americans who those are the ones who happened to have all documents saying how we hate americans, what they don't capture. though, a lot of those 1920 historians did not look at the military diaries, the british officers or french officers in the british army. frank joyce, barbara after words went through with surveying people. why did you join the americans? why did you help them? and lot of people kind of like they share like some of their reasons. they're they're giving. and there's a lot of that evidence of the ideology playing a role. so that's how i square it. i view it as if we're looking the french elite, then absolutely there is zero support. but i think the diaries you also and from american, the americans, you do not a mass army of french canadians joining the british but you do see thousands of canadians which to

be fair, that's not the full population of canada, like a lot of canadians chose, to remain neutral. and i need to make sure i clear here most canadians are kind of like, yeah, we kind like this, but i'm looking at a very small subset of the thousands that did participate that are actively giving and it also doesn't help. col ah general wooster, who comes in, was a anti french anti catholic military man. he ticks off a lot of people really quickly. so there is a little bit of a shift towards the end because. he really lays into the canadians so i have two questions and a book recommendation. so as someone who studies this stuff like ideology, great. but i was curious if you've been able to trace any sort of trade relationship between these canadians and, their americans, that they're going to support? so that's my first question. my second question is, have you considered kind of putting these canadian almost expats into conversation with fleeing loyalists who kind of do the

reverse, who go to canada? and then my book recommendation is if you're not familiar with robert parkinson scholarship, he's doing some really interesting work with ideology and race and your your references to like enslavement really made me think about some of his recent work. yeah i'll admit i'll start with the last one. all men. robert parkinson, while he's doing some very fascinating work, i met this as it was part a little bit kind of saying but this doesn't square when you're looking further north like further north you get where i think his work has a lot of merit in areas with higher populations. i think may i i'll just leave it there. i think there's some areas that i disagree with his thesis and i think there's but think he has some strength and i actually wrote that need to make sure we don't overlook ideological on trade a lot of those middling canadians who kind of are the facilitators, who are the guys reading the speeches happen to be merchants, who happen to be connected to all the new englanders. so i think there is that element in there i in my longer essay, i

argue that we can't just at ideology. and you know, back in my speech would call that a little bit more of. we need to make sure, though, that we also say that there's other motivations and causal relations. i just say that ideology kind of been left on the side and we to make sure we reintegrate that back in some hopefully and sorry what was the loyalist. yes. i haven't really done much on that, but i think that's an interesting avenue. i've read a lot of loyalist literature, though, of those people how they're for a different project. but i'll have to look into that for oh so we go back. hi. so my question is about, you know, so we know the invasion eventually. there's a lot of reasons we can give that. but one of the reasons that often gets kicked around for canadians not throwing in with the cause in huge numbers. yeah. is that until the continental show up with this invasion

force, you know, it had kind of been in the back burner. many canadians minds. but you're talking about, you know, 1774 already there, this rhetoric of liberty. and so i'm wondering if i don't know this canadian history, can you tell us is there the infrastructure of the rebellion that we see in in new england in the middle colonies you know, committees of safety forming committees and correspondence forming. does that happen of the border or is lack of infrastructure maybe another we could chalk up to why this invasion doesn't have the lasting hold on canada that it does you know, new england the rest of the colony. yeah i would say that one there is in montreal, there is in the richelieu of the montreal has a committee of correspondents but they never quite like they're always kind of like this tension of like this from what i've in the records, there's this a little bit of tension. like they're like, yeah, it's easy for you guys to like, rebel

like your economy isn't fully on. there's a little bit of economics question of some of these canadians are a little hesitant. 1774 they spend so much time debating each other whether or not how they're going to participate in the boycotts that are happening as part of the act and all that. and they never actually end up sending anyone but. i think too often like it's been have said, oh well no one came there for they didn't care. i think there was just it was the i think infrastructure really was a bigger issue. there was kind of a tentative infrastructure and it was growing. but i think the the realities of war kind of just when americans i think if the americans had had another maybe who knows what we would have seen maybe would have been that for to colony. but i a lot of that did have like think committees of correspondence that really does affect i think that does affect things so we have another online question. yeah, i actually have two questions that are somewhat

related to i'll try to bring them together. one of those is, did the french canadian sympathizers with revolutionary ideology indicate they were enthusiastic about certain more than others, for example, did they care more about jury trial and one of the other online supporters asks basically, what role did catholicism play in popular support for the american revolutionary war? which sounds like maybe, you know, that could be added to the list of what ranked higher with these canadian, you know, revolutionaries yeah. so i'd say for the revolutionaries it's one of the higher ranking things was that initially it was the juries there was a lot of antagonism about seniors the elites the landholders controlling the jury like there wasn't a jury trial and the siniora's the system was kind of stacked in favor of this the yours towards the end it's looking like it's about assemblies. assemblies begins to become a bigger issue on that being said, part of the challenge i faced

was trying to identify the lowest sorts of why they're joining in the front boys. maybe helps a little bit and it just seems to be like this idea of liberty and they kind of are buying into it. it's not as much about like, oh, well, assembly and, all that, it's the specifics, it's more these broader ideas that seem to be kind of hitting the courts. but then again, like it's a little bit hard and in response to this, the other question reminds you quickly remind me of the role of catholic role catholicism. so that actually played another role towards the end. a lot of americans are about this is the catholic priest basically say if you join americans at the end right as carlton is moving down from quebec, down towards montreal you're seeing canadians still enlisting. the catholic priests had been in favor of the british empire and. they begin to argue that they they may statements that say if you join the americans we will not do the rites at death which

for people who are theologically committed to this system like who deeply believe in this, like this is a big deal not have and americans don't exactly exactly abounding in priests from the catholic church especially northeastern united states. there's not a lot of priests to do your rights. and even beyond that, they don't speak french. and there is one priest father a lot being locked been here i butchering name and i apologize for that my french is terrible but he participates and he joins but like he gets ex-communicated by the by the canadian catholic church so like for of these people like i suggested like there is an alienation from their from their families, from their homelands, their religion, even that they don't have. and the americans trying to help, like charles carroll, the carrolls from maryland, try to help like you just don't see. that. i think that's one of the bigger

part of the equation that needs be factor in in your in the group to calm down but you know the ratio between the british canadians and the french canadians how did they handle the language issue? i can see where lafayette might been helpful there. but third, what was the impact of smallpox? they already had been exposed to more resistant because that was a significant factor in the american troops coming. yeah. so i haven't fully investigated. that was more recent kind of thing i started realizing was about disease and i'm going to be looking at more as further research on but i will say that with the canadians, a lot of the officers there was a few french canadian officers and most of them were english office, english, anglo canadians. but a lot of the foot soldiers were about because the officers tended to come from an upper and a lot of the anglo canadians who were fighting with the americans were the merchants, were these more upper class individuals who had already with new england. but a lot of the foot soldiers

that came were evidence and they ranged like you have a wide range of foot soldiers. when i was looking at the of the war documentation of who was still left there was a lot lot of french names still showing up and it was their enlistment dates were all from 1775, 1776, which to me says these weren't french soldiers. these were french canadians and a lot of them and some are really active writing, glossing. is one of the men he writes a lot of letters to washington, just like, hey it's not great. now in my situation, i gave up everything for you guys. can you help me out? so i think that's something as well. like, i think i should do more with the disease. we'll wrap up with one more online question. yes. and before that, you mentioned father lavinia, who i believe, is the older brother of michel who designed fort campbell, where we are so small world.

nevertheless, i have a question here, was there a surge in french enlistment to support the patriot after saratoga and the signing of the franco-american treaty? so was there a surge? so by the by surge how? hallelujah. by 1777, you're not getting a ton of french canadians coming down. i mean, they're probably well aware of how terrible the situation is for the for example, lord stirling, who was the marquis de lafayette, was there overall commander for a while before him, was stirling, who was over the regiments as part of a larger group. and lord stirling says, like i, i've never seems like such suffering. and he's like, these people don't rebel. they don't fight against like not like the pennsylvanians out there who are like protesting and marching on. these are like canadians just don't do that. even though worse off. so there is that of a lot of the canadians don't there doesn't seem to be as much traffic south afterwards and maybe that could

as be we can ascribe that to the fact there is a ton of british troops in canada canada burgoyne and all that. maybe that helps stymie it. the french, canadians participated in the battle though. were first regiment under they were the ones who'd been in the conflict longer. they were the ones who helped capture the forts north of at the north end of the lake. they were the ones who helped capture montreal. so these are soldiers who were well experienced. so hopefully that answers a little bit of the question. thank you, rob. okay okay. we have reached lunch break. for those of you that are first timer, just follow the they'll take you to where the lunches are, their box lunches out in the picnic area here there is a book with several of our authors starting at 1:00 in the log house in the museum store. we will reconvene here at 2:00. and i'd like ask the afternoon speakers to wait here minute

before you go off to lunch so we can make your powerpoints are all set for this afternoon. thank you. good afternoon and welcome back to before introduce our first speaker this afternoon i just wanted to let you know about a couple. first off, if you or somebody, you know, might be interested in presenting at next year's seminar, there's an open call for papers closes on september 30th. you can just go our website to find that information. i also wanted note that we have teachers scholarship winners in the room and teacher scholarship winners joining us online.

so in the room i hope you're back from lunch. if aaron is here, could you just your hand? aaron's not back from lunch yet. aaron is from saint thomas the apostle school in west springfield, massachusetts. chris lundgren is from the historic. is from historic pursuits program in rochester, new york michael sear, tayseer cesari is from stow high school and stowe, vermont. and michael tell in the back is from the expeditionary school. in ludlow, vermont then online we have denise carter marable from, the neighborhood charter school in new city, nicole finney from the wachusett regional high school in holden, massachusetts. daniel miron from farmingdale college schools in farmingdale, new york, and george masters,

and from the lawrence family development charter school in lawrence, massachusetts. so those of you in line, we're clapping for you as well. we also have some past teacher scholarships here in the room with us, wendy burchard on clock clock. diane bugler, todd guilford, tim cox, who i think is still helping wrap up the book signing stuff. christians scott christian, he was helping with lunch as, a volunteer, so he might still be tied up. bonnie schiewe, who's out at the table and and kevin wagner wagner. so thank you. as you can tell, current teachers winners, there's a lot of past teachers who get hooked and come out that year after year. so we hope you'll be joining us that we are happy. welcome back, todd. the sorry again, who we're happy

to welcome back todd braisted to the podium at fort ticonderoga for his talk today anxious to be some service to the government. the trials and tribulations of burgoyne troilus corps at saratoga. well, burgoyne is british and troops marched into captain city after his defeat at saratoga. the remains of his four regiments of royalist troops were permitted to go back to canada. what became of these men for the next six years of the war? todd braced id is an author and independent researcher in loyalist studies. good afternoon and welcome back. todd. good afternoon, everybody. thank very much, rich. it is a pleasure to be once again here at fort ticonderoga. i started coming here as a. back in 2008.

i gave my first talk on the loyalist during the burgoyne campaign, but only up until the end of campaign. up until saratoga you know. i know all of you out there have been anxiously. what happened to these people after. it kept me up four nights knowing pure, deep. i delved into, trying to find out what became of these people. now doing loyalist studies, it's it's an interesting sort of calling because not lot of people do it. a few people. this room, to be sure. not many of us. so the descendants of loyalists tend to gravitate to those of us, researched them, looking answer for answers that concern me, their ancestors and their in hopes of finding out information

and rightfully they should do my area is military studies and their area is generally. who married whom and? who got baptized where and whatnot. i'm here. help them with the end of things as they tell every time. i'm not a genealogist, but i do occasionally play one on television. so i can help them with the military stuff. and with that in mind that we came up with this project and it involves endless numbers of muster roles and pension applications, claims for compensation and land grants and. god, so many memorials. but you can get lost in the minutia. but the thing is. even though their primary document, they're not necessary

truly correct. and they be misleading. they're correct in what they say. but if you don't know everything, you understand what they're saying you're going to have a problem with that. hence our talk today. and we're we're not moving. sometimes it freezes. first time. book and now nothing like and how it works. thank you, rich. yeah. christian where on august 27, 1777 was appointed captain and

the king's loyal americans a core then racing under lieutenant ebenezer jessup, serving in the 1777 burgoyne campaign. it's except this document lieutenant in the king's road regiment of new york, a provincial reg many of you are familiar with thisent,lso written at the time, says the bearer, derek ed ithe corps. sael mbut e loyalmanded captain rangers, commanded by edward jessup and samuel mckay was ver that corps. what's going on here. to answer these questions, we must start in 1777, when over 1200 loyalists join general john burgoyne and, his quest to

capture albany and beyond and beyond the campaign ended in disaster with. the capture of his army leaving a little over hundred and 25 loyalists, soldiers their way to canada, to lick their wounds. most people forget or never knew of these units that we're going to talk about, because none of them existed at the end of the war. the king's loyal americans was commanded lieutenant colonel ebenezer jessup and raised to november 1776 from about loyalists who joined the army under sir guy carlton at crown point. seven companies were formed until august 8th, 1777, when captain legros company then transferred to another unit battalions corps.

it raised 334 officers and men, some 78 of whom were transferred to corps during the campaign. the queen's loyal rangers was raised in may 1777 by lieutenant john peters. of the 372 officers and men that served in it during that campaign, some 100 were likewise betrayals it out of the unit. battalions corps of royalists raised by captain daniel mcalpin on august 1st, 1777. little is known of their organization in the campaign. other than that, they fielded at least 210 officers and men. mcalpin would command until his death july 17, 18. fisker's corps of royalists. raised august 15th, 1777 by

frances fisher of husak, new york. seven companies totaling hundred and 65 officers, had been in the campaign in fisher's command. 24 hours being killed at the battle of. bennington the next day. burgoyne test captains. samuel mckay, formerly the 68th regiment, to take over corps. mckay led the of the men to safety in canada when burgoyne surrendered, where he was promptly removed from any more service and replaced major robert e lee for the remainder the war. i must just move aside for one second. mckay commanded before that. one of the three companies of canadians that part of burgoyne state last year. army for that campaign. for instance.