good afternoon.

welcome to washington post live. i'm jonathan capehart, associate editor at the washington post. well he's done it again. bob woodward, the washington post's associate editor and chronicler of presidents and administrations, going back to richard nixon, is out today with an insider account of president biden's handling of ukraine and israel. the name of the book is war. and joining me now is bob woodward. bob welcome back to washington post live. thank you. good to see you. you, too. congratulations on yet another book. so, bob, as you know, war chronicles three simultaneous events. the russians invasion of ukraine and the war ukraine, escalating violence in the middle east and serious political unrest here in

the united states. why these three and which of these three do you see as most serious long term threat? well, i think all threats. but why these three. they're inner connected. it's the world we live. and it the hazards, the hazards that we face as a country, really. it's solid. jonathan, if you will bear me. bear with me. i briefly want to read something from the book that senator graham of south carolina said. he's a trump supporter, but also somebody who can be hard on trump. but he makes this overall conclusion. trump represents real part of the american family. it's not a wound. it's part of who we are.

and a lot of people don't like that. i think trump is a grotesque problem for our country. but he is part the country as we from the polling and all of the discussion in the coverage. he has support and he may wind winning in the next election so we have to treat very seriously. we need to look at you know what's trump all about and i think trump is a hazard. is the wrong person for the job. but the overall are and i they're so to understand and the first is that trump has no play in it. he does not play. and when i interviewed the last

year of his presidency for 9 hours, i kept saying, what's the plan? what's plan on dealing with covid? and he he would say things like, oh, don't worry at all. i'll have a plan in 106 days. said, no a minute, 140,000 people are dying in the country already. it is a pandemic. what's a i'll have a plan. 106 days. i was so stunned i couldn't figure out what it was because that turned out to be election day. that's all trump was concerned about. he was not concerned about the people in the country. you know, you. i was scribbling, scribbling down notes. you said something about about donald trump. and you know getting to understand the man and i bring that up because you begin the book by writing about a 1989 interview.

you and carl bernstein, your watergate partner with trump at trump tower. and i want to play a little snippet of it and talk to you about it. on the other. let's listen. why don't. i was watching a boxing match in atlantic city and the champion lost and he was defeated by somebody who a very good fighter, but he wasn't expected to win. and they interviewed the boxer after the match. and he said, how did you do this? how did you win? and he said, i just went with the punches, man. i just went with a punch. there was a great expression, because it's about life just as much as is about boxing or anything else. you go with the punches. so, bob, i wanted to play that because i just wonder what what you find so instructive about that quote from from trump today how this with the punches that he said 35 years ago how that might help us understand who he is today or maybe even how he got here today.

very important question. first is, 35 years ago and at this time, trump was a real estate king in new york city. he had nothing to do with politics. in fact, i asked him in this interview and he's kind of pushed off. but you see in this interview that carl bernstein and myself did it, carl ran into him at some point and it said, let's do an interview. so we we interviewed him in trump tower. all all really. but there were theme lines that trump presented that reflect who he is. and and one of them was clearly, how do you deal with people? and he said, well you either be

a or because other words kill people or, be sweet or both and you look at trump's career in politics today as he's running for president again. and you see those traits killer and you know he also says in that interview i like having great friends and great enemies. so which one motivates him more? the great friends or the great enemies? oh, such a great quote. i don't know. but he's driven by both. and he wants to have friends. it's candy. he is quite willing to kill people. not literally, but politically with his rhetoric. and we now see this. so again, we see this trump out

there. no plan, no. i mean, really literally, he has no plan he wing wings every day. and if you follow him, he really has no allies. he has there's no team now. one of the things we learn in trying to understand and write politics is the team is essential. you don't do anything along. trump does every thing alone. people who work with them? i'm in now. you know it's down to you. never know. when he was president, he had five defense secretaries. joe biden's had one. most presidents have one or two. five. because trump can not work or build a team. and i mean, jonathan, you you

have producers work with you, right? right. you need them. yeah. yeah. okay. yes. and in fact, if you went in to the office and they were on strike or something, they would not do this anymore. you would be traumatized, right? so. right. i wouldn't even know how to turn on the camera. exactly. and you know. and who's the guests going to be and how do we work? now, can i do something very here. i stood claire mcmullen. who's been with me for a number of? books is a lawyer. you're from australia and knows all this better than i do. quite frankly, can i introduce her? oh, absolutely. okay, i'm going. there are. here's claire.

no, i. you don't have a mike on you, but we can at least. we can at least see you. and an opportunity. me and, for the folks who are watching. really, claire, to say thank you. because without you, bob is nothing. that is absolutely true. he still works 14 hour days. i know any other 81 year old that could do what he does. he is the most dedicated, determined reporter. i constantly for the truth and to answer a question that are you know that you say in this book in the public interest and what people want to know and i mean this he's so humble he would never talk about his work ethic but i've never seen anything like it and i do want to still be doing this day in and day out, he writes in the book about me saying, i'm going to keep going, but he's the one

that just keeps going and going and going. yes. what about you had about claire was not here. okay. you let let's let you. back. i go back to taking notes, slipping cards to, me and so forth. but working at the post for two years, john, that this idea you never do anything back in watergate it was with carl bernstein the editors at the post ben bradlee ben bradlee in the movie all the president's men, played by jason robert. it's it's like they were twins exactly who bradlee was this kind of bigger style. let's get to the bottom of the story we're working on giving

you running room in on watergate. a lot of the senior reporters came to ben and said, why are you letting these bernstein and woodward do this story? he loved it. he want he said, well, there, let's how they do. let's. and he did. he gave us that freedom. and he not only let carl and myself partner, but we partnered with the editors. mm hmm. so you know this. thank you for. introducing us to claire and the reminding that the jobs that we do, it's not. and we might be the face, but there are a lot of people behind helping us get things off the ground. you mentioned earlier how donald trump has no which i want to bring up a relationship that trump has that you write about in the book that is the trump

putin relationship. and i bring that up because there's a question that we have from an audience member by the name of rick ungar from. and rick wants know what do you think trump admires about. well trump trump says it i i admire putin he loves the autocracy loves the idea that putin has of this power. he's home almost envious of. and course, this is part of the danger we live in democracy and lots of other candidates and presidents will talk about power of democracy. trump talks about the power of autocratic authority that you can just decide when you're in that position. he admires that. he there are many times, trump

says, you know, i get along with putin, which, yes, he's he's right. good to get along with it. but who is vladimir putin? vladimir putin is the adolf hitler of our century. the invasion of ukraine is the equivalent to what hitler did, trying to take over a country that's free and doing that and hundreds of thousands people have died in this war. this this is a war. for what purpose? it is for the purpose of vladimir putin. saying going back his i mean, you you what he writes what he says. it's it's really that somehow ukraine doesn't exist. well, of course it. oh, it really be a part of.

so i'm going to take it and invade. and there's scenes in the book before the invasion where the intel agents, people in the united states and in the biden white house, they're saying wait a minute. this is crazy. not going to do this. and people going back and forth, rightly so. is this possible? of course he did it. he and he is now put maybe think of all the terror and war in the world. what's going on in the ukraine in vision is so serious. one of the things i did in the reporting is talk to the president. duda and geographically, there's poland and then ukraine and russia and dude is quite upfront about it he said, look, if takes

ukraine now going to have a 300 mile plus border with russia and controlled by russia. he is this is his nightmare. and he refers back to what happened in the thirties with adolf hitler and putin is really this you dig into this and i able to talk to intelligence authorities people who have information about him and then conclude qanon is not only is authoritarian, he's sadistic and he gets a joy out of this and take vladimir putin and the threat to the world seriously. well, let's talk more about vladimir putin and the threat to the world seriously, because in

war, you write about the challenges facing the biden administration before and after russia's invasion. and among them was keeping from actually using tactical nuclear weapon against ukraine. close did russia come to doing a thing? well, it's started out intelligence. it's kind of oh, well, maybe there's a five or 10%. it got down. to 50%. and in the white house, they are sitting there looking at this and they realize the national security of officials for president biden. this is a coin flip. a coin flip. and. one of the officials, key people in the biden white house, is saying, my god, this is what it must been like in 1962 during the cuban missile living on the

edge. this is really a serious, serious threat. and biden and, you know, there are scenes in the book this a very long scene. and i'm not going to read it, though. i'm tempted to read it. that and again, this the planning that trump never does in the national security team in the white house, they they plan and they have this intelligence that the threat of tactical nuclear weapon coming. bob read, it. you don't have to read everything. i'm sure folks who are watching would love to hear you read from the book on this. okay so what happens is lloyd austin, the defense secretary, somebody not known. i tell you, he he we learned so much about him in this book.

so austin calls up to his a in russia the defense secretary show go and says just write we know you were contemplating the use of tactical nuclear weapons in ukraine and he laid out the consequences in the consequences are actually quite brilliant about saying look this isn't just going to be the use of one tactical nuclear weapon. it's been 80 years since no killer have been used and he's trying to say don't do it? and it's a very i would love read it all, but b but, you know, if you see it in the book. so here's what happened. so he's laying this in a very direct way.

and joe good, the defense minister of russia's says to us that, i don't take kindly to being threatened. austin, one of the most powerful lines i've seen in 52 years of journal is austin says his counterpart in russia. mr. minister, i am the leader of most powerful military in the history of the world. i don't make threats. then, you know, this the real life under the scenes in behind the scenes. and you see this kind of real struggle to keep from the from it's out of control because. should russia should putin order

the use of tactical nuclear weapons? the world changes in the biden administration obviously don't want to have that happen on their watch, but they realize if it does happen. they an era and for 80 years no nuclear have been used in. here's putin. putin who is not only sadistic but totally in charge, threatens this. and so they examine quite rightly the conditions. now, wait a minute. why would he use tactical nuclear weapons and they get into there many explicit about the worry in russia. they have a doctrine that they can use tactical nuclear weapons

if face or experi what they call care, strategic battlefield. other words and there are scenes in ukraine, the russians really threatened with catastrophic battles field loss and under their doctrine use tactical weapons. and this is what biden is trying to talk them out of but you and thank god that catastrophic situation eased and there are scenes where american generals are talking to the russian generals kind of saying, okay, now you have to use tactical weapon they want to provoke this. but also, it's a it's kind of

this realization that comes with every presidency that i've tried to understand and write about. and that is that we're bringing not just our actions but we will define an era. and if that era includes the use of tech tactical nuclear weapons, we're in the new world. mm hmm. you know, in relation to the that you read from the quote you read from defense secretary austin to his russian counterpart, the other key thing is not just the words, it's the secretary, his voice very deep, theatric that's why i reacted the way i did, because i had his voice in my ear. if you don't take him seriously after that, i don't know how how anyone would. let's shift vladimir putin to benjamin netanyahu. you report extensively about the escalating conflict in the

middle east and president frustration with it in their dealings with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. you quote president biden's saying and i want to put it on the screen because there's some tart language in here, that son, a --, bibi netanyahu, he's a bad guy. he's a bad effing guy. but what does that quote you about the relationship between president biden and prime netanyahu? really important question. and it's that tense and even gets to another where and is president biden's to his close aides in the white house saying that netanyahu is a f-ing liar and goes further and says eight

of the 19 people who work netanyahu are liars. total distrust. but here's strategic reality. we are allies. israel. i and biden sticks to that. but biden's policy really is pro israel. we lost bomb's audio somehow. i'm sorry, did it come off or. oops did we lose the audio or. i just can't hear him. say something. bomb the pad. there you go. i think i can hear you now. go ahead, bob. sorry about that. oh, okay. so this this worry couldn't greater and netanyahu open internally.

not publicly with his distrust and his frosty with netanyahu and to say he to his closest aides this man is a liar and so there's that distrust but at the same time israel and the united states are allies. they need each other. but to this broken personal distrust really drives part of it. and as we're through what's going on in the middle east now, it it's it's not you necessarily hope or think it should be chummy, but it should be a relationship of deeper trust rather than this kind of mistrust. but one more question on this before start asking you about

the 2024 election. does the for a lot of people, the actions of the israeli military represent seems to represent a loss of influence of the united states over it over. and i'm just wondering, has the united states lost influence or is it that relationship between the president of the united states and the prime minister of israel? is in bad shape and that is what's driving this? well, no, i think it it is a manifestation of it that that look, we've to do something to help israel united states policy, biden's policy. i think, would even in it, you know if somebody elsewhere president vice president harris or even donald trump that would be part of the calculus.

it's the closer you get to the detail of this as a reporter, you see that the drama behind the scenes is not emotional it's strategic that it that we're hanging in this period of such uncertainty. so at the end of the book, i tried to draw some conclusions, namely involving the ukraine war, the middle east. this is to be right there and new president's desk, whoever it is, it the the tensions and the hostility in risk and the violence not going away. bring in another audience question, sort of tangentially related. this is from sarah pinto in

florida. she asks, what is one piece of advice for kamala vice president kamala harris to help salvage the world's view of u.s. foreign policy? well, you know that is reporters. we know, or at least not an opinion reporter trying not to give advice. she's got a really, really hard job and you need think about the the vice it is i mean she is 40 in it and i would argue from the detail i have that she's gone to president's school she's gained a lot of seen the sidelines there there are cases even there's there's one case where the united states defeats a massive attack from iran not just the united states, but

israel and other allies. and there have in the seat national security council meeting at this very tense and harris up on the screen she's not there in the white house but it's a secure screen and this is a really difficult moment. and but it's been the missiles from iran have been defeated summarily. and biden asks harris, the vice president said, what's what should we do? what do you think? and she gets off one of these important strategically, almost emotionally, should take the win. and so biden goes back to talking and, recommends to

president netanyahu take the win. it's right out of her mouth. mm. we've already run out of time. but i'm not letting you go without asking you. two. two more questions. thank you. on the front page. are you under a time crunch? no, i'm not. i'll go in and see. i'm very honored that you would bring one of the old guys in. all right. here to two questions. the first one's a long one. the new york has a fascinating story on its front today. the headline reads, some believe in trump without him. all how they don't believe he'd follow through on any of the threats he's leveled on the campaign trail. one guy interviewed said that trump, quote, just riling up the news. i'd love of your thoughts on this. no i mean yes trump likes to

rile up the news and so forth but he he again this is the theme here no team he does not have the team. i don't the. i look there have to people in the country who support him and they ought to think about this important character mistake. you need a team. we all need teams. we do. you know claire here, your producer was it's absolute essential. and it's not that something to kind of put hand a we're doing this alone. last question for you. you've written or co-written 23 books. are you already are you already at work on the 24th. well, that was i write those books from reporting on what's

going on and of course, what's going on so important. i mean, it is risky. it is risky to a great degree. and particularly in this of having an like putin leading russia, threatening to use nuclear weapons. he is confronting significant, catastrophic battlefield loss. and there have moments in the russia russia ukraine war where that and it's subsided. but it can go again and putin has made it very he does not want to lose this war. you know what? this war is insane. the idea if if this were a

democracy, if in a democracy the people would just say, who's this leader? we've got we've got to fix it because it makes no sense. bob so our is the big here, the 24th book is going to be about vladimir putin. oh, you mean the one? i don't know. i'm not able to talk to. i reveal the book that he sent the point of care covid test kits to president trump when he was president and they they talked about this and etc. window into this trump putin alliance and it couldn't it clear because trump is done this

covertly this is equipment that americans need and he took a tells to putin he's done this and putin is quite delighted and it's just trump don't tell anyone. and trump said says, you know, i'm impotence worried about trump. is this a goes to the point where vladimir putin worried about the president trump's public relations image and he's trying to fix it and trying to help it and course this comes out in the book and trump is happens he immediately denies it. i was astonished the kremlin issued a statement saying, no, this is true. this i don't know i'm now