the president's list of briefings because we know he gets an early briefing and then it kind of at least i learned from secretary of defense vance, former panetta, you know, that kind of goes the president becomes concerned with other things and is no longer concerned nuclear issues. so make that a regular issue be dealt with and then also have people really care about it. i once said, why doesn't congress do more about when i was interviewing some of my sources and a number of them said to me, and a congress only pays to what the people are paying, know, and well, you have given us a book that should get people's attention and is a tremendous contribution, in my view, to informing the public about the stakes, about the options and about the history of how we got here and points in the direction of how we can out. so annie jacobsen thank you much for your book.

thank for joining us and having a what i think was informative and. i can i say this a highly discussion about nuclear war. it was a great discussion. thank you so much. thank you.

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♪♪ >> he is the founder of the lit effect and also the author of beyond the big lie. why republicans do it more and how to burn down our beaumont -- democracy. thank you for having me. >> you are on the show years ago we will show the clip in a bit. >> this brings one important

part of the book. i was here in 2012 and answered questions about our work on the 2020 election. our caller called in on the democratic line. he had read in the nation that republicans live more in light were set they had tallied up fact checks and he wanted to know what i said about that. >> let me pause you there. let's show people from 2012. >> your nearest competitor had listed statements of republicans versus democrats and almost seven out of 10 for the three republicans and democrats.

they were a lot smaller. >> i can honestly say that i do not keep score. >> we did not keep score. we did not keep score by party and still do by individual. you could easily look through the prominent republicans and compare them to the prominent democrats and see that brian is right. i lied because i was trying to show that we were impartial. this is really important in washington journalism to show that you are not taking sty -- not taking sides. it is kind of rough-and-tumble form of journalism. you are making calls. that is important.

in doing so, we see this unmistakable pattern and we talk about that in a bit. but, this is true for other fact checkers. did not answer that question when i got asked that question when i gave speeches and on other tv appearances because i was trying to show my impartiality when we were truly nonpartisan and what we did. still a core principle that it looks at both parties equally. it looks at each statement individually. but, this pattern is unmistakable. now i no longer work for political fact, i am a faculty member at duke, i can talk about it freely. as a nation, we need to talk about it. the fact that there are so many

lies coming from the republicans , it is really affecting our discourse. >> the book beyond the big lie. if you on asking questions about themes of the book 8001 for republicans. 8004 democrats. independence 8002. you can text us that 8003. what is of value in line and politics? >> that was interesting. i started to research the book. as a journalist, i had never asked that question. i never asked a politician, why do you live? why do politicians lie? it just goes unspoken here in washington. so, i did. i interviewed a bunch of politicians and political operatives and asked them why they live. the value is, a calculation. it is like i think kind of instant math. the politician or the political operative will make the decision

we will gain more then we will lose. that is easy today with a media environment that shelters people from contrary views and facts. so you have it is just very easy for politicians to live. so, why? ambition. the number one reason that people gave politicians lie because they think it helps them it helps them with their constituents. it helps them with their party base. it helps them raise money. that is really the biggest reason. >> what is the consequence of lying these days? >> some people say there is no consequence and that is the problem. i think that it used to be, and several people have said to me,

it used to be that politicians would feel shamed if they were caught in a live. what has changed is with gerrymandering and with artisan media, there is a lot, there is less pressure on politicians when they are caught in a live. it's not like they go home to their districts and they are like, hey, i saw the post gave me for for this. i do not think that that happens very often. i think politicians are sheltered from being held accountable. it is easier than ever to live. the partisan media also becomes an echo chamber for the lies. if you look at some of the lies that they have been following, the partisan media just repeats these lies and sort of become

the conventional wisdom even though they are not true. >> you say partisan media. >> i would say they saw on the right, fox, newsmax, talking to a trump supporter that watches newsmax to get his information. they read conservative blocks. they listen to talk radio. on the right, msnbc, they read liberal blogs. they are very distinct news media echo chambers that, i think, prevent people often from seeing the facts that are contrary to what they want to believe. this is more prevalent on the right. we saw in the dominion case, fox

not only, when fox did not go along with the lies about the 2020 election, they lost viewers there is an economic incentive, i think, to chime in and protect the politician. >> to what degree do you think there is equity in calling out there is equity in calling out that former president trump would say? >> absolutely. that is done every day. >> when i was editor at political fact, we would try every day to make sure that we were examining both parties. but, there is just no comparison between those two candidates in terms of volume. donald trump is unmatched in american history in terms of the volume and repetition of his

lies. he will double down on things as he has on the false claim that immigrants in springfield ohio were eating dogs and cats. that is a great case study. that claim was thoroughly examined by many media organizations. not just the fact checkers. they went to springfield, talked to people and, yet, it just got repeated and repeated and is still getting repeated today. >> this is bill adair. the book is beyond the big lie. how it could burn down our democracy. let's start with dan. dan is in california. republican line. go ahead. >> good morning, gentlemen. i just find it a little ironic that you guys have a book targeting republicans which we are a diverse group of people

across religion, we are not all born americans. you are sort of labeling us like that. in the title of your book is the big lie. you open with a 2012 audio cited where you yourself said you lied i mean, i don't know if he had a nondisclosure or an nda, but you have capitalized on a. you are capitalist. i get that. you are selling a book now. i just think that's rich. that is my comment. i don't understand how you can write a book about how people live in the you quote yourself that you lie in that question. >> thank you for that comment. i think you need to look at the opening scene in the greater context of the book.

my point was that i think journalists need to talk about this disparity. that is hard for fact checkers in particular, but i do think journalists, and really, the nation, needs to confront this. this is crippling our political discourse. we cannot have serious conversations about climate, about immigration because there is such a disparity in lying. the whole idea of opening with myself lying was, you know, to confess that even i did it. but then to make the point that we need to have this conversation. >> richard. richard is in maryland. democrats lied. >> good morning, gentlemen. i appreciate the conversation. could you comment on the quality of lying going on today as

opposed to say 20 years ago and, also, if you believe there is a moral universe, the quality and quantity of the lying is going forth right now. such a level that it is the wind driving the sales of the uss america. with that, we have to be going to a bad place because as johnny cochran once said, lars will not go unpunished. our political space, you know, it is overwhelming. with trump the other day, he was saying that he saved the aca, obamacare in it was clearly john mccain and everybody knows that, everybody has seen it and yet they proceed to tell those same