people have been working in that. field for. 20.

good evening, everyone i'm carter phillips. i'm the treasurer. the supreme court historical society. i actually stand in this room with some frequency, but i'm usually face in that direction, so it's a nice change of pace actually to be looking at. now there i am asked to remind everyone, please turn off all cell phones, tablets, apple watches, even if they're in silent mode, they can cause interference with the sound system in this courtroom. so i appreciate assistance on that. obviously, we welcome you this evening. this particular heritage lecture has been a long coming. we began in 1991 with justice kennedy talking about the court

packing plan. and then we had the privilege of doing it again. 2018 to celebrate justice 50th anniversary on court. and so it's sort of fitting we're now here once again after pandemic. it's nice to be back in the courtroom for the 70th anniversary of the court's landmark decision. and of course, this is a program that we put on with the white house historical association and the u.s. capital society. and we appreciate very our partnership and that endeavor. i'd like to express the society's gratitude this evening to justice ketanji brown jackson. this is the first event that we've had the privilege of having her participate with the society and she's doing double duty tonight. first, she'll be at home. she'll be a host and also a participant. after judge gergel speaks, she'll join him in a conversation and discuss brown versus board of education as i suspect you all know, this is a

pretty busy time for the for the justices of the court. so we we thank her for taking the time away from her many duties. and we're honored by her presence. it is cliche to say someone needs no introduction, but it is absolutely true in this context. nonetheless, my job is to introduce the introducer. so i will fulfill my responsibilities. justice jackson was born in washington on september 14, 1970. it's interesting that i at the same date that not the exact date, but the same day that the judge, constance baker, was born. most of you probably know about the judge. she was the first black woman to argue in the united states supreme court. first black federal district court. she argued ten cases in the supreme court and won nine of them. that is a record come nowhere near. so she obviously she played a

significant role in the brown litigation with thurgood marshall. justice jackson grew up in miami, attended private public i'm sorry. she graduated from harvard. radcliffe with a bachelor's in government and graduated from harvard's law school in 96. after law school, she had three clerkships that's become the tradition in my day was to was pretty much everything but these days get three including one with justice stephen breyer here at the court in addition to her professional experience in private practice she had other forms of public service. she worked in the united states sentencing commission for three years as a federal public defender, three years here in d.c. she returned to the u.s. sentencing commission and ten she served on the u.s. court for the district of columbia from 2013 to 2021 and president appointed her to the d.c. circuit. and 2021. she was there long enough to a cup of coffee, basically. and that was nominated to the

united states supreme court. and she was confirmed in 2022 and took the oath of office on june 30th, 2022. i am and grateful to present justice jackson and to thank her for being here this evening evening. thank you all very. thank you, carter, for that introduction and you for the invitation to. be with you this evening. my colleagues and i support the important work of the supreme court society and the work the society is doing to preserve the history of the court, the constitution, and the federal, and to explore educational outreach to the public about the supreme court's history. it is a pleasure host this special society program this evening here at the court tonight's lecture conversation,

as you heard comes just days after the 70th anniversary of the court's decision in brown versus the board of education. given that history, it is quite meaningful for to be in the courtroom tonight, to take part in the society's of brown. in a few moments we'll have the privilege of hearing from judge richard gergel, who presided in the same courthouse in south carolina where judge jay white's wearing served. and for those you who don't know much about, judge waring, you will learn a great deal about him tonight. judge richard gergel is a native of columbia south carolina, and the grandson of russian and polish jewish. he is a graduate of duke university and the duke university school of law. he practiced law in columbia,

south carolina, for 30 years, specializing in complex civil litigation before president obama nominated as u.s. district judge. and he was confirmed by the senate by a unanimous consent in august of 2010, shortly after his confirmation, judge gergel discovered that his maternal grandparents had been sworn in as american citizens in the very courtroom to which was assigned a fact that he has shared frequently while conducting naturalization ceremonies. he has presided in federal courthouse in charleston since and has handled a of significant cases, including the 2017 trial of dylann roof who killed nine people attending a wednesday bible study at emanuel african methodist church. judge gergel is the author of numerous and books with a particular on american legal

history with his wife, who is here with us tonight, dr. belinda gergel, a retired historian. he is the author of enforced of the tree of life, a history of the early -- in of columbia, south carolina. his most recent book from which tonight's talk drawn is an example of courage, the blinding of sergeant isaac woodard and the awakening of president truman and judge whites wearing. it has been referred to by new york times as riveting and remarkable and by professor henry louis gates as a timely a monumental achievement. the gurgles have two sons, both of whom are with us tonight. richie, who practices law in charleston, and joseph, who graduated yesterday from the fordham law school. i could go on, but i won't because like you i'm anxious to

hear from my friends. so please join me in welcoming judge gergel. thank justice jackson for that kind introduction. and we we have been initially i had been confirmed. we were sort of reconstructing our relationship i have been confirmed about a year in justice jackson was on the sentencing commission nominee for the district court but not yet. and we were at a sentencing commission conference and we had these wonderful conversations. and we have been friends and colleagues since. so we're so proud of her. and i'm truly honored to be here with in this event on december nine, 1952. thurgood marshall, the legendary chief counsel, the naacp stepped to the podium in this courtroom and commenced his argument.

the supreme court's longstanding precedent of plessy v ferguson should be overturned. he was followed by john davis himself, a living legend is one of the greatest oral of his day, who argued that plessy remained good law. the two titans of the bar met at the crossroads of history with the outcome of this historic to define what type nation america would be. the stakes were huge. would major portions america remain rigidly segregated in which many citizens lived in a twilight world between slavery and freedom. or would this country up to its promise of equal justice, guaranteed by the american constitution? many would assume that the case for this momentous argument between thurgood marshall and john davis was brown versus

board of education. that assumption would be wrong. the case argued that day continued into the next day. was briggs versus elliott which involved a challenge to the racially segregated public school system of clarendon county, south carolina. the briggs case would later be consolidated with three other school desegregation cases under the title brown versus board of education, thurgood marshall awaited argue the briggs case exclusive. lee in the first round of arguments in 1952, believed it was the most of the school segregation pending on the supreme court's. the first case that was filed, the first case that where the groundbreaking the bricks case would later be consolidated with the other school desegregation cases under the title brown versus board of education. elected to argue the bricks case exclusively in the first round

of arguments in 1952. believing itli was the most important of the school segregation cases pending the supreme court docket. the first case that was filed. the first case where the groundbreaking evidence of doctor kenneth clark dull studies was offered. asserting that they should be overturned. that dissent by the united states district judge concluded that all government mandated public school segregation violated of the 14th amendment. when the supreme court issued this unanimous decision on brown on may 17, 1954 the standard was a centerpiece of what is now regarded as the most important case on american history. it is thus altogether fitting that in, this program offering the seventh, 70th anniversary of

the brown decision that we turn our attention to the briggs case the public school segregation issue onto the docket of the united states supreme court did not simply begin with the filing of the briggs suit or the citizens petition which made the simple request that the black children have access to a school bus just like white children. it was instead a now long forgotten incident of racial violence inflicted on a returning african-american world waril ii veteran that would set off a cascading series of events ultimately leading to the series in december 1952. abroad. returning african-american veterans expected more respectful treatment at home

once they returned. instead, the old practices disenfranchisement and jim crow segregation persisted and returning veterans who resisted acquiesce to these customs were often viewed as a threat to the racial status quo. the returning african veterans wanted their own new deal. late in the afternoon of february 12, 1946, sergeant isaac woodard, a battlefield decorated, boarded a greyhound bus in augusta, georgia. after discharge hours earlier from camp gordon and was traveling to columbia, was traveling to columbia south carolina.re and on to his hometown of winnsboro he was surrounded you with his wife after several years of separation, occasioned by his war service. heat expressive figure dress uniform sgt stripes on his shoulders, battlefield decorations on his chest. during one of the frequent stops along the way, watered approach

the white bus driver asked if he could step off the bus at the next stop to relieve himself. at that time interstate buses did not have restrooms. greyhound drivers were instructed to a comet such request by the passengers. instead the bus driver snapped out watered i ain't got time to wait ordered him to return to his seat at the back of the bus. did the apparent astonishment of the bus driver, watered snapped back andnd telling the driver talked to me like i am talking to you. i am a man just like you stunned bus driver told him to go ahead but at the neck stop in south carolina the bus driver now no longer concerned with staying on schedule departed his bus in search of a police officer to have transient remove from the bus and arrested. woodard soon found himself confronted by the police chief of bates berg who responded to

woodard effort to explain himself by striking him over the head with his blackjack escorted woodard off to the county jail. on the way woodard is really beaten with his jacket ultimately driving the end of the baton into both of his eyes the sergeant was enthroned in a semiconscious state into a jail cell for the night when he awoke the next morning he realized he could not see. later that day woodard was transported to the veterans hospital in columbia were he was determined to be irreversibly blinded it. accounts of the woodard beating and blightingre were reported in the black press received nationwide attention orson welles focus on the incident and his weekly national radio problem on abc radio over four successive weeks. mast means were soon organized g black communities across the nation to protest woodard's treatment. meanwhile other black r veterans returning to their homes in the rural south confer the other

incidence of racial violence including racially inspired murders. no state, no state prosecuted those in any of these incidents. on september 19 , 46 a delegation of civil rights leaders met with president truman at the white house be deeply distressed by this wave of racial violence against black veterans. part to the meeting truman staff advised him that despite his desire to respond to the concerns of the civil rights leaders, there was little he could do as president to address instances. as the meeting opened irv clevenger call congress back in a special session to address the spreading of violence against black veterans. the present expressed sympathy it lamented there was little he could do there simply was not public support for civil rights legislation.lt leading the group walter ralph executive secretary naacp one of

truman's moste loyal and prominent supporters in the civil rights community. it was apparent to whites the president did not appreciate gravity of the situation. white change the discussion by sharing with truman in detail the blinding of isaac woodard tragic story unfolded truman sat riveted became visibly agitated with the idea that uniform decorated american soldier-soap cruelly treated. i banded the advice truman said my god, i had no idea it was as terrible as that. wee have got to do something to break the following day he wrote his attorney general tom clark shared with him the s story of e blinding of isaac woodard noting the police officer had deliberately put out the sgt's eyes. truman made it clear the time for federal action had now

arrived. three business days after president truman's letter arrived at the department of justice the attorney general made theul unprecedented announcement the department of justice would prosecute bates berg police chief for the deprivation of civil rights of isaac woodard. during this era federal prosecution of a white police officer for violent civil rights black citizen in the deep south face daunting challenges for jury rosters were drawn african-americans from us entirelynd disenfranchised. all-white juries and grand juries were hostile to any civil rights claims and prosecutors want nothing to do with civil rights cases. indeedt a decision by the juste department to charge the police chief with the misdemeanor what's because it was doubt itself, federal grand jury would return an indictment. the announcement of the prosecution of police chief

brought an outcry from local sellthrough and elected officials. who attack what they would argue federal meddling in a purely local matter. the my sixte district judge assigned the case eighth generation charlestonian and his father. his father was a confederate veteran. judge was initially skeptical of the federal prosecution. when the blinded sergeant took the stand detailed his vicious beating at the hands of the chief, judge knew a grave wrong had been done. he was equally aware has all white jury would not convict the obviously culpable officer. he was right 28 minutes after deliberations commenced jury announced the acquittal of lynwood show. chaired his acquittal is a wife, elizabeth, who would attend the trial left the back of the court room in tears. judge waring joined his wife

later that evening both work traumatized by the trial over which he had just presided. the trial force the judge and his wife to steer directly into the southern racial abyss. a view which would forever transform both of them. he later described in the trial as his personal baptism of fire. michigan born wife's baptism and racial prejudice. the waring's return home to charleston after the trout which was held in columbia. resolve to learn more about the issues of race and justice a subject with they had given frankly little thought to prior to the trial. these were not subjects could be openly discussed among white charlestonian's of the day. ther society to undertake their own self-directed study, each evening after dinner elizabeth would read out loud a portion of a selected work to allow the jump to drudge to rest his eyes after a day of handling his

duties. the couple would then discuss what they had read optimal driving from charleston in the evening a favorite pastime. among the books they read was a cutting-edge work of the american dilemma by gunnar murdaugh a brilliant 1400 page study of race in america funded by the carnegie foundation which would later be cited in the famous footnote 11 brown versus board of education. once they had read all 14 pages together, there was no turning back. judge waring's new views on race and justice of all george elmore a black businessman filed suit in the federal district court in columbia 1947 challenging the democraticic party all white primary. was represented by thurgood marshall 39-year-old chief counsel the naacp almost

legendary proportions. next litigator in the legal strategist. south carolina political leaders were united in their determination to preserve the white primary notwithstanding clear u.s. supreme court precedents smith versus all right holding white primaries and constitutional. they don't always listen to what you all say, right? judge waring understood any decision recognize the right of minority citizens to vote would produce intensely hostile possibly violent public reaction. he came home the night he was assigned the case and told elizabeth up untilil now we have been doing this privately. if i rule for the plaintiffs in this case our lives will never be the same. elizabeth now a convert to the cause said i am with you from start to finish. waring concluded as he later shared with a historian after he

retired his choice was either a quote to the entire leak governed by the doctrine of white supremacy or to be a federal judge inside the law. on july 12 , 47 judge waring issued his decision elmore versus rice declared south carolina white primary unconstitutional. into his order by stating it is time for south carolina to rejoin the union and to adopt the american way of conducting elections. the ground breaking nature was immediately appreciated by the leadership of the naacp. in a private note to thurgood marshall william hasting who later be appointed the federal judge in american history wrote thurgood, i have a red south carolina decision three times and i still do not believe it. in many respects this was your greatest legal achievement. the segregation would not give

up. soon a new party rule was adopted allowing blacks to vote in the primary so long as they pledge their support to racial segregation. no surprise a lawsuit was filed by thurgood marshall judge waring then summoned emergency hearing in hisis courtroom required all 93 members of the democratic party executive committee to be present these were the political powers of south carolina. judge waring denounce their denr efforts to defy his earlier ruling and explain a federal judge face with contempt could impose a fine or jail sentence. he one of those present enough they violated his orders again there would be no fines. think about that one. thereafter african-americans by the thousands registered to vote in south carolina. the response of self by the whites a premise was thunderous,

death threats written and oral or constant. a cross was burned at the waring's residence. thrown through the living room window. on the order of the attorney general p judge waring was provided 24 hour u.s. marshall security. time magazine described as the man they love to hate. also noted he was proving to be a person of cool courage. if the purpose of the unprecedented of where it was intended to cower him it did not work. they studied reflect on race, injustice, america became convinced the foundation of jim crow segregation, the supreme court 1896 decision in plessy versus ferguson was legally come historically and morally wrong. after the supreme court ruled with the plaintiffs at 90 civil rights cases june 1951 involving

a separate but not equal texas law school that sweat versus painter and a graduate school african-american student was required to sit in the hall outside theat classroom. that's mclaurin versus oklahoma board of regents. judge was convinced the supreme court was ready to reverse plessy if a proper school segregation c case could be plad on his docket. judge waring noted in his docket in charleston the case in clarendon county south carolina. sought to equalize the facilities in the districts of black and white schools. at the time litigating civil rights cases in the south was very tough slog for the naacp lawyers. they had a strategy of using plessy as a sword.

they're not challenging segregation that they were challenging the lack of a quality. this is a highly successful legal strategy. they were winning their cases. and it was a brilliant kind of strategy because it avoided challenging segregation. the original briggs but had the controversy because every time plessy was o used to hold the rights of african-american citizens, it was in another way securing the inferior legal status. the original briggs complaint did not explicitly allege segregated public schools were unconstitutional. i was on accident. they're not asserting that at the time the plaintiff's attorney thurgood marshall appeared at the charleston courthouse on november 17 , 504 pretrial conference on the friday before the trial was to begin on monday. he was advised the judge wanted to see him in chambers. after being ushered into the

judge's office without opposing counsel present, waring tol' marshall i do not to try another separate but equal case. bringse me a frontal attack on segregation. marshall responded judge, it is on our. agenda. it is just not tonight. we don't think this is the case. we don't think this was the time for what is really saying is there going to kill my plaintiffs if we do this. judge waring was unpersuaded telling marshall this is the case. this is the time. marshall urged the judge should think practically noting any by him overturning plus plessy would be reversed on appeal by the fourth circuit but he does challenge a public school segregation contested the constitutionality of the state law he would request the appointment of a three-judge panel any appeal would automatically going to the doctor of the united states supreme court.

up to this point naacp strategy was carefully build one case on top of another. never trying to get ahead of the supremeld court the path waring was suggesting was a bold and unflinchingn attack on segregation root and branch. a few minutes after this dramatic encounter waring convene the pretrial conference in briggs publicly pressed marshall on whether he was challenging the constitutionality of public school segregation. marshall stated he was. agreed to dismiss his pending lawsuit and read file a new briggs complaint was the first frontal attack on public school segregation in american history. the newly filed a briggs case was tried in the courthouse in may 1951. before a three-judge panel included judge waring. the prior years the civil rights cases in the south were sparsely attended by members of the black

community lest they be identified as members of the naacp. that will get you fired if you are schoolteacher or would be seen as challengers to the racial status quo. on the morning of may 28 , 51 is aa sun rose in charleston african-americans lined up at the courthouse and down the street as far as the eye could see. hoping to observe what many thought mightan be the most important case in american history. as thurgood marshall under the charleston federal courthouse that morning, he turned to his young assistant bob carter and said bob, it is all over it. carter, his young assistant was a bit mystified he what did he mean? he said theyy are not scared anymore. those in attendance the courtroom were not disappointed by the performance of thurgood marshall. the trial include the testimony of doctor kenneth clark a social psychologist who had done

groundbreaking research on the effects of segregation on black children using black-and-white goals. the crowd was also entertained by thurgood marshall cross examination of the states key witness whose last name was coro. you cannot make it out. as judge waring anticipate the majority of the panel ruled south carolina laws mandating segregatedaw schools were lawful under the plessy doctrine. but judge waring fully aware he was writing a dissent for the ages wrote an elegant and brilliant attack on the foundations of segregation in america. he stated quote we must face without evasion or equivocation the question as to whether it is segregation and education in our schools is legal under the 14th amendment. judge waring discussed in some detail at the testimony of doctor kennethl clark regarding his dull studies which he stated

demonstrated quote the humiliation and disgrace by being set aside and segregated is unfit to associatess with others of different color. has a damaging effect upon the mental processes of our young. after carefully examining the language of equal protection clauseec in the recent decisions of the supreme court, striking down segregatedju schools of higher education, judge waring concluded segregation and education can never produce equality. it isn't evil that must be eradicated. segregation and education adopted practice in the state of southou carolina must go and go now.w. segregation is per se inequality. judge waring also noted in his dissent the targeted retaliation the briggs plaintiffs had experienced as a result of their participation in the case. which include the loss of jobs, the calling in and the failure of the local volunteer fire

department to respond to a fire that burned down the home of the plaintiffs community leader reverend joseph delano. judge waring stated the plaintiff quote has showed unexampled courage in bringing and presenting this cause in the faith base of the long-established age old way of life the state of south carolina has adopted, practice, lived in and since a result of the institution of human slavery. waring's dissent issued in june 1951s was the first challenge a government mandate segregation by federal judge since justice harlan historic dissent in plessy 55 years earlier. innt early 1952 some six months after briggs versus elliott dissent, judge waring announced his retirement as a federal judge. exhausted by charleston moved to new york city. more and file close it later school desegregation cases in virginia, delaware and kansas.

all of which were consolidated for the nights it supreme court with briggs under the name brown versus board of education. all of the other school desegregation cases involving 14 different judges only by it concluded public school segregation even if the facilities were equal, violated the 14th amendment of the united states constitution. the supreme court handed down unanimously landmark decision in brown versus board of education. the court found public school segregation quote generates a feeling ofan inferiority and inchildren may affect their heas and minds in a way unlikely to ever be underdone. citing the issues of doctor clark. the per several all government mandate is unconstitutional.

in briggs dissent. the leadership naacp travel to judge waring small upper east side apartment to chose the man they viewed as the father of brown. judge waring met with chief justice warren shortly after the brown decision to express his admiration for the clear-cut decision told him i felt greatly relieved when you decided the school case i have been pretty lonely up until that time. chief justice responded waring was the one to be admired. because you had to do the hard way. judge waring was always philosophical what he called the unpleasant repercussions of the civil rights decision. in an oral history late in life waring observed taken the whole thing and balance i think i am enormously fortunate. you doo not often in life have the opportunity to do something you really think is good. a great stroke of fortune came down my alley the others don't

amount to anything. they're offset by what i think is an important contribution to theou history of our country. thank you. [applause] thankl you. is this on?wo can you hear me? wonderful. that was really wonderful. really informative. we have a few follow-up questions will turn over to her our audience. cooks alienated from the white political establishment. south carolina particularly. do you have a sense of how he was received by other judges? what's it is kind of interesting. in these white primary cases they went up on appeal the

fourth circuit unanimously fourth circuit unanimously affirmed his two decisions. jon j parker who had been nominated to the court at one point in the late 20s did not get confirmed because of his perceived views on race. he wrote the decisions he was an admirer. around the country he was greatly admired. he knew the justices of this court very well. they admired him. there was a point where he came to washington for a series of meetings. one was with chief justice benton for he wrote a letter later to thurgood marshall i move the chief justice. he shared our views their

discussion began with truman saying judge, do you know the story of the blind and negro sergeant? he said mr. president, i tried that case. judge waring would often say he was kind of at national figure in the late 40s. reporters would ask him fairly commonly what got into you? how did you change? and he would say while on the bench i developed a passion for justice. that is a wonderful statement. there's a lot of other southern federal judges who did not develop a passion for justice. it wasn't like there is a clamoring to follow him. frank johnson and the great judgesre on the fifth circuit ws a little later he was already

retired by the time he got on the bench. at the time is out there by himself. i think the answer was while i would probably become the most reviled man in the white south he had minimum a grudging respect of his colleagues and for some admiration. cooksey talked a little bit about president truman and his knowledge of the story. your book talks about how the incident motivated the president to make changes give details about those? >> that session in september 1946 were walter white shirts with him the blinding of isaac ordered it captured his imagination in a way none of these other incidents and there were other incidentsou in the south during this period some racially inspired murders that

hit him in a way he would repeatedly story of the blinding of isaac ordered. who would anyone listen to him. he decided in that same letter he writes the attorney general and says basically prosecute the guy who blinded isaac woodard. he also says we've got to do more i'm going to pointrk on rights. that was landmark in and of itself issued and report within 11 months of their work appointment calls to secure these rights offered for 5000 suggestions of how to undo jim crow. many of these are the basic a blueprint for the johnson administration i and congress ws not going along with any of it at the time. harry truman had one thing he could do. he could issue executive order desegregating thefo armed forces of the united states and in jul.

in the middle of his presidential campaign. what is a remarkable letter i found in the truman library a friend of ms. from missouri wrote him and said harry, get off the civil rights thing you're going to lose the election. you're going to lose the south. treatment wrote him back and said to his friend ernest roberts, you don't know what i know. he tells in the story of the blinding of isaac woodard and he says if i lose this election over this issue it will have been for a good cause. in truman's second term he fully desegregated the military over very strong resistance of the army brass. when he left office in early 195295% of american troops were in desegregated units during the first multiracial institution in

american life. so here is sort of the irony. here's a story about a blinded veteran that no one remembered who influenced maybe two seminole events of the early civil rights movement the deep segregation of the armed forces in brown versus ford. >> tell mee how you came upon te story. how did you do the research? you mention being in the truman library., >> first about as you remember this you become a district judge it lands on you. you would like oh my god it is the real thing. you are sobered with the responsibility. i wanted to know because i had the love of history. and particularly i wanted to know about the member. through all of those discussions their articles of the time they never been really goodd work.

nobody really answer this question. what changed? what motivated this dramatic from being basically a mainstream democratic political tubing civil rights visionary? how did it happen he described himself as a gradualist. he thought it was necessary for a gradual evolution of southern life which meant 10 years from never. by 1947 he is threatening to jail whites politicians for interfering with the rights of african-americans. something happened in that two year period in dead in the middle of it is the trial for the blinding of isaac woodard.

high surf the hypothesis that was it. and midway through my research someone offered me an oral history of a woman ruby cornwell it was that matriarch. she was very close with the waring's. she was being interviewed she was talking about judge waring. and in the middle of it i'm listening to his headphones on and she says you know changed him don't you? [laughter] well, here he comes. it was that blinded negro sgt. he told me it was his baptism of fire. so there had it. so now i had that part. the story i contributed mightily to the brown decision. here it was was the story of

this a blinded african-american soldier. and then i asked how did this case get prosecuted? in 1946 the justice department was not prosecuting white cops for blinding black men. that just was not happening. as i dug into the story harry truman had ordereded it. now he had destroyed the two events in the early civil rights movement came from this event nobody remembered. inspired these men to act in a courageous way. >> were going to turn to the artist i would ask you one more question about fighting unusual historical facts. how did you find out about the conversation between thurgood marshall and judge waring? [laughter] i wasn't there.

[laughter] will start with that. there is a gentleman by the name of alexander rivera. from the pittsburgh career. his dad was a present norco and naacp. he was viewed as someone who always had a camera around his neck. he prided himself on being a photojournalist. he covered the civil rights cases. he was a fraternity brother of marshall's and a very close friend. they cover this trial. it was somewhere in waring's office. he walked to the door and when he came out marshall told him what happened. late in life after they passed, rivera said i need to tell a secret because i know a story.

he told it twice an oral history at the department at duke and north carolina. here i have a rather startling story communication the most important case in american history. i was nervous about it. and i only had one source. i had this one guy. i was at a meeting of judges. and there was nathaniel jones who would been a carter appointee, had been on the sixth circuit. he had been the general counsel of the naacp. a little bit later but he was around. in a mutual friend michelle childs said go talk to nay he might know something about judge waring. i pulled him aside and said i am working on this book.

i was wondering are you writing a biography of waring? i said no i'm writing about a story i started telling him a little bit about it. i said i'm curious have you heard about a conversation on his chambers? he said yes i know that story. i said who told you he said walter white. thurgood marshall's boss told him the story. he said in my autobiography i mentioned it but i did not want tofo describe it for the same reason you are asking me about it.ri i had not read his autobiography. i went and read it he has this line and says it's long overlooked inspired thurgood marshall to attack segregation at root and branch i called the message that we are talking about? he said youhe need to tell the whole story. so i thought i had two sources,

two pretty good ones. >> is there anyone from the audience who would like to ask a question? >> yes, ma'am. >> thank you for your remarks it. i'mus curious to know, judge, if you perceive ain difference in w your book plays a role in the concept of justice. especially with regard to race. how you thought about it before 2020 and the national conversation about race in today? >> i've got to say we are already there before. by 2020 in the book was out it came out in 2019. i get more frequently asked did the case influenced me. it actually didn't mean. i mostly written about by that point. one of things it got to do and this is why the supreme court

historical society so important, with got to remember ourth history. there's a lot of efforts to muddle that story. telling the story in a candid way for the opening of my book the first 40 or 50 pages are pretty tough read describes the binding ofpr isaac woodard it is not a pretty sight. i thought it was important for people to appreciate the brutality of jim crow segregation is not a benign thing everyone was happy to go along with. because underlying it was the threatce and use of violence wee necessary. isaacat ordered that day was viewed as a threat to the social order. black veterans were viewed as a threat. they wanted a better deal than they have had before. i'vely got to say telling this history is really in important t thing to do. the george floyd episode brought

may be a younger generation knowledge of some of this history. but police violence has been issue many years before 2020. >> hundred sgt wood written about the rest of his life? when these events arose isaac ordered became a well-known figure. he gave talks around the country. a benefit concert in new york 23000 attended. cab calloway others perform, joe lewis was the chairman of the committee he was the reigning heavyweight champion of the world. there is a very interesting memo i found in naacp papers they wrote walter wright and said in 10 years no one will remember his name.

1946 being blind it was pretty tough. he initially really struggled. the military took the view he was still wearing his uniform which was required until he got home, they said he was discharged five hours before he was blinded. he did not qualifyfor disabilit. have got to give credit they persisted for years urging congress to change in 1960 when they changed it. he got disability benefits, full benefits and back pay. that tremendously changed his life. in the 50s he was working as a blind man selling newspapers in lower manhattan. we have seen blind people do this things.

at one time he had a social worker at the veterans administration he wrote and said i am so poor i cannot afford a winter coat. after 1961 he becomes far more economically stable. hees begins buying real estate. you kind of like that, mr. klein. the country leading real estate lawyers. i got to know's nephew very well who was his caregiver. he's the guy who collected rent. [laughter]co he said his uncle could make a nickel scream. he supported two sons his elderly parents, he felt very fulfilled. but in 1956 jet magazine ran a story called america's most

forgotten man. so down and then sort of up but here's the tragedy. he never knew his impact on harry truman and george waring. he never knew that story. and his family which is very proud of all of this they knew. obviously they knew about joe lewis and all of that. they were very aware of it. joe lewis sending a limousine to the house to pick himim up for e concert and all of that. his courage of standing up for himself at a transformative effect on american civil rights history.n >> could i just jump in and ask one thing? you mentioned in your book about your traveling to pittsburgh and meeting with local town leaders this is the time for all this happened. idea where they did not remember. what would you say explains

their lack of recall and hope they done anything to correct for that? >> there is an interesting problem of amnesia relating to civil rights violence. there just is. pittsburgh was no exception. i go to pittsburgh and to -- i wanted to make sure i knew were certain events took place. i thought a new bus stop they did not have a building. it was a place for anyone to make sure i knew her that was and the police car it was kind of the details of that tragic night when he is blinded. so i called the town attorney and i said would you meet me there on a saturday morning and walk me through? he had grown up there. help meet with the logistics of all of this. and so he meets me. with him is the mayor of

pittsburgh whose lesson was scholl. i had sort of the same response. so we are walking, we go to where he got off the bus we go around the corner where he was beaten in a storefront and blinded. we go up the street to the place where the jail was he was thrown in that night and where the town court was where he was a prosecutor the next day for drunk and disorderly conduct unjustly. and the mayor, i'm keeping my eye on the mayor. he is becoming increasingly upset. i can tell this. they ask about my elbow and pulls me aside andoh says i want you to know i am not related to the police chief. i am from missouri. [laughter] then he says what can we do customer he says i am a harry

truman fan. he says to meet what can we do to make this right? we had a series of discussions. he and i in the town attorney about what theyle could do. they did a couple of things. first they went into court and after the unjust conviction to be overturned the day after. they erected a historic marker. candidly telling the truth the blinding of isaac woodard by by thepolice chief. they held the ceremony in which the city town council and several hundred people from batesal berg walks the path from the bus stop, around the corner to her he was blinded into the site of the jail. which is now a cleared area they

had erected the historic marker. they have now announced plea or turning that space into a park. they're going to title it the isaac woodard unity park. "new york times" wrote an article that this was a town who got it right. who acknowledge their history. it's kind of a wonderful story. tragic in the inception but redemptive in terms the way the town dealt with it. >> i think we have time for one more question. >> in all seriousness this happened right after world war ii. i believe. [inaudible] they were inspired by jim crow laws. >> it is corrected.ju >> i am wanting to what extent judge waring was aware of that? what was happening in europe?

>> the answer is he did know about the nazis in the death camps. actually when he retired he became an active member of the board of the conference of christian and jews. it was also on the board which is kind of interesting. so he was aware the american fought for liberty and had fought for the end of a police state and eight nazi regime. and yes i think it influenced him in his own views. >> could you all please join me in thanking judge for a wonderful presentation. [applause] [applause]

[applause] >> if you have not done it already i suggest you go right out and order the book on amazon. it r is an easy read. it's fascinating. >> my publisher would like that. excess in return for the favor you did earlier by the very, very nice complement you played to the historicall society. we appreciate that very much. please keep that in mind as we enjoy the rest of the evening. i obviously went to thank justice jackson and for being here tonight. as i said this book is a fascinating read. thought i knew abo fair amount f brown versus board of education. i learned a lot about the details that are extremely interesting. i do commend it to you. i want to thank our cosponsors again and the white house historical association u.s. capitol historical society to point out specifically we are doing tonight by matthew

costello andor jane campbell. we look forward to the next program we can put together with you and we look forward to that. and now we have a reception of a right out in the great hall right outside the stores we will enjoy the rest of the evening together. hopefully if you have specific questions you can raise them with a goode. judge. and on that we are adjourned, thank you. [applause] >> c-span or history unfold daily 1979 by america's cable television companies today we continue to take it to congress and other public policy events in washington d.c. and around the country. c-span powered by cable. intellectual feast. everyat