you've got to turn all the pages. and doing so can often be a very stupid buying experience because it's extremely boring. read most of these things. but then, like every 20 minutes you're kind of jolted awake and see something that is of great interest and that winds up in the book. and so this was about a ten year process and it was after about probably about seven or eight years that i started writing, which took a couple of years to produce the first draft of the book. and and, you know, then another revisions and now on the most important part of it all, the book tour. so i was wondering if you can comment on reagan's frame of mind after losing the 1976. nomination nomination. you. yeah, well, he came very close to 1976. i mean, it was funny because we were talking earlier about learning from your audience. and one of the things that he learned from his audience was it was very popular. denounce the panama canal treaties.

he kept he started saying, we it we pay for it. it's ours. and the audience react with the roar. and so he became this opponent of the panama canal treaties. he became this opponent of detente, which he had supported. and richard nixon was doing then opposed. and jerry ford was doing it. he came very close to beating ford on campaigning a heavily on foreign policy issues. but it was the most closely contested fight in modern history. and then the expectation was he was 65 years old and he would just kind of fade and and go into retirement. but i, you know, coming as close as he did to ford, i think he saw an an opportunity and then especially when jimmy carter started to stumble and his administration did not go very reagan emerged from the wreckage of the 1976 campaign or or the near-miss of 1976 to become the republic and frontrunner in the 1980 and eventually defeat jimmy carter, including with his, you know, immortal debate performance lines like there you

go again. so thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen. let's give a big round of applause. max and carlos, thank you so much. for the question. everything. you. will return to live coverage of miami book fair in just a bit. in the meantime, here's an author conversation at the fair from yesterday. good afternoon.

june. good. good afternoon. my name is nyala. i am an attorney at the law firm greenberg traurig, and along standing volunteer here. welcome to the 41st miami book fair. if you are a first time attendee, then like to welcome you to the fair. if you are returning, then it's good to see you back. and if you are friend of the fair, then i want to extend a very special hello and welcome to you. are there any friends in the room? all right. fantastic to see you. it's good to have friends and we'd love have some more. so please consider are joining the friends today. we are so thankful to all of our sponsors, including the green family foundation and amazon, the marriott marquee and brickell and all of the other at

this time, i'd like to ask you to silence your cell phones for the pleasure everyone here in this audience, this afternoon at the end of the session, the author will be signing just down the hall, and there will be a period for a brief question and answer. with that, i'd like to go ahead and introduce susan rose, who's then to introduce the folks who come here to see susan rose is an award winning theater and film. she is the tony winning producer of the band's visit. her other broadway productions include the tony nominated shows, joseph and the amazing dreamcoat. hurley burley blood, not the who's tommy and illinois. she co-produced macbeth, starring daniel craig and the drama desk award winning musical the last five years. with that welcome, susan.

hi, everyone i'm a newbie to miami is my first book fair and it's amazing. i think it's amazing. everybody does a fantastic job. i'm so happy to be able to introduce the moderator today. then there's rick. he is new york times bestselling author of the accidental billionaires, the founding of facebook, a tale of sex, money, genius and betrayal, which was adapted by aaron sorkin into the david fincher film the social network, bringing down the house, the inside of six mit students who took vegas for millions, which was also adapted into the number one box office hit film one, the antisocial network, the gamestop squeeze and the ragtime group of amateur that brought wall street to its and many other bestsellers. his books have sold more than 6 million copies worldwide, and

i'm very pleased also be able to introduce kara. she is the host the podcast on with kara swisher and the co-host of the pivot was scott galloway, both distributed by new york magazine, a co-founder and former editor at large of recode. she was the host of recode decode and co-executive of the code conference. she is the former contributing opinion writer for the new york times and host of its sway podcast and has also worked for the wall street journal and the washington post burn book, a tech story. simon and schuster is her third book and just want to say something on a personal note, i know kara rarely stays still, but when you do it's because you were hanging with your favorite dog potato who calms you down when you were watching shogun and without ado, ben and kara,

thank you. shogun rocks. hi, everybody. thank all so much for being here. i want to say what an honor and a privilege it is to be sitting with same, same. i think that is the best journalist that's around. she's the best by far. tech journalist. i not have been able to have written my books without borrowing from your. yes. and is fearless and feared. i think to some extent. and she's willing to say things that nobody else is to say. so hopefully we won't get in too much trouble today. so i'm interviewing you. yeah, we do get in trouble. let's do that that. so i'm going to i'm going to bounce around a little bit because how i know is when i

wrote the facebooks story is when i discovered you. you had already been the tech world. and i'm an outsider and you found mark zuckerberg and got to know mark before anyone. that's correct. yeah. so i want to start mark yeah because he has changed a lot. yes, he has many more muscles, more muscles. so when you started to care, mark, it's fine. i'm good with it. i'm going be he looks good. same thing with jeff bezos, who by the way is having the best midlife crisis ever for all this. so was a kid when you first met him. he was he was, i don't know, 19, 20, something like that very young. and when you first where was facebook when you started with mark, they were in a small you know, they actually had an office when i met google were actually in the garage that larry sergey so they were all of them. jeff bezos met him when he didn't have a headquarters, and

i helped him find it in seattle. was weird, but that's when he was wearing pleated khakis and oxford shirts was quite a bit thinner. but i met i met him at a small headquarters that facebook had gotten in palo alto, and it was right above a place called pizza my heart, which was pizza place. and so i met him there because the guy who was it was a troubled company from at the beginning. very much so, and he could never find the right people to help him get to the next step. it was kind of a weird, crazy place. it was it still had the effects of sean parker and that gang, and he had hired this guy named own binotto, who worked jeff at amazon and owen called me up and they also had a pr person named brad barker. and they're like, come and meet mark this. you'll you'll like him. i said, oh god, all i and i had met every social network there was myspace, there was friendster. there was so many of these at the time was like search but

previously and i go i don't know i've heard he's an -- and and and they're like, well they didn't say no. and i was like, well all right, fine. and i went to meet him and mark of today is a little different than mark before. he was very shy. he had a hard interacting and an actual conversation and and he would but he messed up by being incredibly arrogant. like he had a card that said, which was so immature he thought it was cool, which i thought was an interesting. but he had a card that said, i'm the ceo --, which i'm like, what is wrong with you? and i have four kids? and i was like, stop. like, i would laugh at my children if they did that. and and he came and the first thing he said, he didn't know how to enter a conversation like hello like hello would be the you would say he goes, i heard you think i'm an --. and it was sort of like all, right, i do. because most people sucked up to me because i was at the wall

street journal and this was not a suck up and because they wanted a profile or whatever. and and i said listen, a lot of people, you're an --. i've never met you, so i don't know. you're -- yet, but let's find out. and that's where we started. oh, my god. i mean. did you not an --, by the way, did you believe when mark started that, when you first met him, that he was going to build that is is impactful facebook or as important as facebook you know, one of the things he like to do, he'd like mimic other tech what he read about other tech leaders steve jobs used like to walk around palo alto right right and so mark's like let's walk around palo alto and i'm like, i've known steve jobs for 15 years. stop. please stop. i know what you're doing here and what we did. i walk with him and one of the things that he did was and it was actually he was better walking and he started talking, you had the myspace guys and they were like the miami club. they're like, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump. you know, they were all trendy,

good looking party, that kind of thing. and we're the top thing. and he started calling facebook immediately, which was really struck me as that utility. that's the word he used. it was an unusual word from a young person. and he was dead. right. it was a utility. right. as opposed to its cool place to hang because you know what happens to cool places to hang. they become an uncool place to hang. right. and so immediately i thought, well, that's really smart. like he he really did understand. and and what i found very unusual is and you'll find this among a lot tech people is he is the least sociable person in running a social network. you know. so that was interesting so it was his way of of creating his ideas around community. he had these ideas around, you know, all kinds of the first amendment. he didn't never read it. i from what i can understand, he he hasn't it's very short. it's i used to say to it's very short. it's first you can read it and then because he always sees the

problem he was saying is the public square. remember that i'm the public square. i'm like, okay, why do you own everything? do you control everything? and it's a private company and you're a billionaire. how is that a public square? sounds like people who say something. the public square tend to go bad, right? and then i said, well, let me make some of the decisions. of course, that's not happening. but so anyway, so he was he was a thoughtful person, but he had a very hard time, as you know, as you depicted. i was joking with ben backstage when mark, when the social network came, i did this famous interview with him in which he sweat. this was profuse. this was the best and most famous interview of zuckerberg, but also in my mind, it was maybe the best tech interview i had ever seen. oh, really? because you got to mark. i don't. well, you can tell us how you got mark. so we mark better after that interview. we we ever did or ever will, you know, oddly, i didn't like that. i didn't like interview at all because he was i don't like you don't want someone fainting an interview because it gives a bad reputation.

but but he what happened was he has panic attacks. i was aware of walt who did? walt mossberg, who did the interview with me was not. mark's very nervous. and one of the reasons was this movie out about him. he was very upset about it. and we had had dinner the night before and he kept saying, you know, this is how are going to think of me, this person blah, blah, blah. and i kept saying, it's not like you at all. this guy talks a lot and you and he's kind of better looking than you are. but anyway, he but he was very upset that this is what people would think of him. and i was like, it's a movie mark. it's not real. it's not well, they didn't i didn't say this and. i was like, would you please stop? like, you're having a movie made? and in any case, i don't think is before they went public, i was like, you're going to be a billionaire. like, don't worry about it. like, don't be notorious be the way you are. but he was very upset by that movie. he really was. so that's what led to it was all of sheryl. and what, sheryl was upset. yeah, for a while. then she was okay with it. whatever. and you know sheryl well, too,

right, jerry? but you were telling me now your relationship with them is not the same. you know, i talked to facebook. i was invited to their christmas party next week, so i guess it's okay. but no, they don't talk to me now. and that gets to the next week. i mean, they're like, you're mean us. i'm like, what are you talking about? like i right. i said, point to a place where i'm being mean, like i'm not factual. and by the way, i was about the impact that you were going have and the deleterious effects of social media, they just didn't like the message and they didn't like to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. none of these people do. it's never been like i agree. and i think that that gets to sort the next point, which is that previous you yeah tech journalism didn't really exist to the extent that it does. no i think what mossberg really actually i would give my partner mark was mark barden walt mossberg i'm thinking of mark wrote this column, that his first line, the column preceded

me by ten years, said technology is too hard to use and it's not your fault. and i love that idea. and walter is the one that recruited me into the wall street journal, by the way, and became my partner. and we did these famous tech things. and i think the idea was when i got there walt said, go in with cleats on, parachute him with your on. but be fair. that was what told me when i went because there was no one out in silicon valley except for slavish fanboys like mr. gates. your head is so big. how did you come up with microsoft? and i was like, this piece of software sucks from a user point of view, like, why did you come up with this piece of --? and so, or why are you creating a monopoly? clearly like that was the kind of questions i ask because was i was telling you what was how the watch worked. i told you what time it was, right. that was how i looked at it. and so he you know what really got me into that idea? and i think you had all these slave ish fanboys, but just like it was crazy and it was all boys, let tell you that just

couldn't look up and see the historical, the societal impact, the way you might see. they just were like as if it was electricity invented. they were interested in, the science of it versus, the impact it would have. and i was interested in the positive and negative impacts i had hoped for. the positive things have more of a resonance. i was very aware of the negative, right? and so you went into this and in burn book, which is wonderful and everyone should read it. it's memoir. you did not initially, you wanted to be in the military. i did. and you shifted gears, didn't shift gears. i was gay and you weren't allowed to be in the military without don't ask, don't tell. my dad in the military, i always joke i'd be such a good admiral be right about now. i'd be being fired by trump. but i too woke because. i you know, whatever day i wanted to be in the military. i have a great regard and i thought i would be good at it. and i was to be in the cia.

i thought about being in the sea. i went to the foreign service school at georgetown. so i thought the cia was one area. and i even the cia at the time was, i would say, anti-gay. they would at one point i had one interview where they were not the cia, but another one. and they're like, well, what if people out, you were gay? and i'm like, but i'm out there. like, but what if they found out? i'm like, but i'm out? these are the kind of discussions you have. yeah, well, what if we assigned you to saudi? i'm like, i don't speak arabic, but like, why would you do that? it was like those were the kind of discussions. i just wanted to be an analyst or serve in it. and then when you went out california, i remember in your book, someone said to you, are you going to cover cvs or some like cb radio cv radios, right. because this was the media people also were even because at the time print ascendant and media reporters were ascendant, it was like time or time warner, all that stuff. and the minute i saw i was at the washington post and i left and dawn graham, who's one of

the loveliest owners of all time, not the current one, was sorry, but give me a -- break, jeff. come on. you just how much like how much of wimp do you have to be to do that at the last, i guess. anyway, i'm sorry. sorry. he could have waited. i get the argument he's making, but not ten days before the election when it's already a written thing like. stop it and stop pretending it's anything else and then blame reporters for it. it's ridiculous is his fault. they lost subscribers because of him. nobody else. and do you think that it was an act out of fear was he being fearful or was he going for this space? oh, what he's worried about ellen is worried about i say mortal enemies. i mean, who cares? these two like they had to actually fight. it would be ridiculous. i mean, i could take them both easily so that i believe. i believe that and i would write about it and we'd make a movie and it would be great, you know, in the immortal words of kamala

harris, i have a glock. i don't actually, but, you know, i mean, we would we definitely i think she has a i definitely want to get to elon musk and be sure i want to start stop there. let's start software though. well you asked about. yeah we were asking about what the. oh media i always thought the media did not get what was coming. and that was another thing was at the washington post. and don graham asked me, why are you going to the wall street journal? i said, the water's rising and you're on a lower flood plain than the wall street journal. i thought business would have a little more resonance. but the minute you saw the internet, minute you saw these technologies, you understood that everything that could be digitized would, be including the business plans of all these newspapers, particularly. i covered retail for seven years, and you saw wal-mart in and decimate all the local retailers that paid for the washington post. so you saw that coming out. you saw i subscribe libbers. and then when i saw craigslist, i was like, oh, no, you're screwed you sell a product that's expensive static and they're mean to you what a great product classifieds are right

and they don't work on top of it right and so i was like, oh no, this is going to change the economics. and i don't think a lot of people paid attention to. so i was paying attention to cell phones and the internet and it so obvious where it was going for these people. amazing. so you were you were definitely on the early side, very wracking, which is i left newspapers to create all things did all the other things. yeah. yeah. and so starting back sort of with these figures that were, were dominating world, i want to start with steve jobs because i think i want to get it from you. i mean, you called him. i think the words i have it here. reality distortion field around him. it was good though. it wasn't like this bad stuff. now that he's like a positive, you would say? i wouldn't say he's perfect. he's right. by today's standards. he looks like a gentleman, like, come on. i mean, like he his car badly like, you know. he'd be parking handicapped spaces. not good, but boy, is he nice to people today. he, you know, and specifically and he was he was he was he was

he had a lot of education. he read widely. he understood history. he understood his responsibility. a little better not to say he didn't want to sell iphones. right. he really did not to say he couldn't be mendacious. he lied to on stage about creating the iphone. and the next year i said, you lied to us. he goes, yes, i did, you know, but like said, yes, i did. so that's fine, you know, not great, but still. but he was i thought was he understood the marriage of art and technology. i thought they very it's not just a marketing from the privacy thing was he really was irritated by social media. he really was about rapacious grabbing of information. he real problems with it. and if an apple still to this day doesn't do that like as well, everybody does but you know what i'm saying yeah they they really did have a set of values about what they were selling, which is a really good product. we're not going to steal. we're going to tell you what we're doing all the time as opposed to and that's why, you know, facebook and apple have so

many beefs back and because and they they look apple as like, you know, a tisk tisk and like mm. yeah. how dare you find a thing is they're taking your information and then they're using it monetizing it and then selling it back to you. right. you know, and then telling you how dare you this is the wrong thing or how dare you pass law that might protect you. that's the thing so ugly. and so getting to bill gates how about any steve was great even is bill gates on same he's changed okay he used to be very irritating. now he's kind of like the elder statesman. he's made some bad judgment calls around the stuff. obviously, that's it's hard to leave that out but i'm not sure what i've yet to see really good on that i haven't done any so i'm not going to comment on it but he he was incredibly arrogant, incredibly domineering obviously i covered the microsoft for the washington post. he, you know, he was he was very

aggressive person in terms of doing and trying to take advantage over the years. he's changed, i think, since he left microsoft, the philanthropy has been very i just interviewed him recently and the stuff he's doing around climate change, around investing in that area is is really interesting. and i think he's had a just a a bigger view of the impact i would say he i put him in the steve jobs camp he sort of they they reconciled as steve which i think i think we did the famous interview with the two of them which i think was the best tech interview ever done have to say, yeah, it's like having edison and whatnot for it. i don't want interview that anti-semite. so edison in another thing but that gets you to elon like you know yeah like he can i have all these tech people he can land a rocket on a surfboard that's it. yeah but the aren't i trans it's like he's henry ford all over again so he's, he's an interesting one. yeah. you know, we're getting, like, nice with the cars. henry but you're a --

anti-semite. thank you. okay. all right. yeah, let's. well, let's start with bezos. okay, before we get to elon, because i have a lot to say and you have a lot to say on elon bezos. i like to say less and less over time. i know. unfortunately, i think we're going to stay more. he's now the oxygen now. so so amazon, let's start with bezos. yeah. when you started with bezos, he was a geeky yeah, you know, well, he was a math guy and he had worked wall street firm. now he one of the differences with him is he as an adult, like a lot of these people were, the google twins were younger right. mark was young. mark was later, by the way, not for late to later, but he was he was an adult he was in his thirties, i think i think we were we're around the same age and and he was he was he already had a good career and was success financially successful. so it was a little different. i always thought the word i wrote down in my notebook, which i found was farrell i found him farrell. farrell yeah, you could see him right around?

the thing. and he really was much more a business person. so honestly, he was easier to deal with because i didn't get any lectures about community saving the world and right the wearing of sweatshirt outs and stuff like that. he wasn't the archival silicon. we're doing this for good. he was selling books. that's right you know and he was but now he's seems to be living his best life in some ways. yeah he's gotten really good shape. he is and and now i think somehow he stepped from amazon to some degree and he stepped away from amazon to some sort of. yeah, yeah, i think so. and he's still having a relaxed interactions with him or yeah, there's know another one. i mean, you know he's this is why it kind of like is like he called me incessantly when he needed me and then when he didn't he didn't like such a user but that's fine got the i got the switch he wanted to be in the wall journal. he wanted to have profiles written of him. he wanted he was that it was a touch and go company for a long time right. so are you this is coming from that. are you in competition with the

regular now? do you see yourself in that room? i don't even think of them as competition. they're just not even in the same game anymore. no, i make i'm profitable. so. that's of and then i want to i want to have newspapers. i work for all of them. yeah. you've worked for every most quit all of them. so does it make you sad to, see newspapers die or you think that no? i think what i like about it is that now it's opportunity to do interesting things, right now. same thing with cable networks. they're done. i'm like, are they like, why do they have to be now? it's like this spinoff i was talking to the comcast people yesterday about the offs. i wanted to understand it a little better and it's an opportunity to great stuff now, now that they're free they have to be good and they have to be innovative. and so i always think the decline of something an opportunity, right for me all of them. and so they can now like they're like, oh, it's only old, it's only this and like does it have be no, you can change. same thing with newspapers.

you just get the court see one of the things i have always been in business and so to me if costs are aligned with revenues, you're fine. you know, even if it's break even if you don't, you're not going to ever make that much money for media necessarily. all the value is sucked up by google and facebook and everything else these days, not forever, but can do some really interesting things. my podcast stuff. we have three or four people working from. that's i pay attention to the costs and i understand one of the things that i understand is when we mentioned that this was from the early days of doing the code conferences and all things d conferences, i knew how much money we made and what our contribution was, which was total. by the way, the journal would have never thought of doing this thing. and then you could pay me, based on what i did, like, that's what i got from silicon valley, my value, you know, if we made million dollars, i'm going to get at least half of that. my friends. right. and if that was, i mean, profits, that was what that's

what's interesting because, you know, you're i know. i don't mean to quote mika brzezinski these days, but know your value, right? i've always been aware of my value. and i think some people in media are overpaid and. some people are underpaid actually, given their. yeah, i think it's an opportunity for these comp i sit there and think so that they have to get out from under right to stay alive. a billionaire to buy them that's no they don't they actually happening. yes you have to recapitalize. that's what you have to do. i think the billionaire thing is a problem because they around now, what's happened is that the pros, they're in a status because what's bezos going to want? like that's what you can feel it they're right. what's bezos going to do the thing is he could give a --. that's my feeling. he's on his yacht with lauren. he's having a good time. and then he's like, oh, i own that paper. katharine graham convinced me to buy it. so thing with marc, like i was marc benioff owns time, and he got on that. he was he had some fear on twitter about. kamala didn't do an interview with him. how dare she? you know, she never did in 50

years. but i remember anybody that like this. and so i texted my go, you know what you whiny person i said i had a bad word to him and i said she'll do and i said if you were relevant she'd do an interview with you. don't you try to be relevant. and he was like, what's how did i magazine? i'm like, nobody reads it. so guess what? she'd be better on my podcast because i'm bigger than time magazine. so it was like, you know, they just are so sensitive these they think they should get everything for owning it. and so i think there's other ownership ways, there's other cost that don't like. i think people media should own a piece of the stuff the washington post reporters should get a piece of it, a piece of it, and then they'd be motivated to do something about it, right? i mean, okay, that would be great. and they never gotten a part like i'm just using it as an example. they they never podcasts. they never did like they and one of the things that scott and used to wonder is when is cnbc going to do a business in media podcast? never, never. why not? they have. yeah, it's just not their model

and they don't. why not? so why not figure that out and and reverse engineer it and figure out what you could put on to figure out. yes. and so i want to get switching gears again, i want to talk about peter thiel, because this is someone that now people about. but previously i think most people unaware or he's just a shadowy in the background. yeah well, he's written like three books, so he's not the most significant person. i would agree in the world right now in some ways and don't know him you know, his circus clown in front of everything. but peter is the one i always watch. you know, because he is very smart. where did you start with peter? i mean, did you actually, i paid attention him right away? because you could tell, first of all, look, you don't have to agree with someone to think, wow, that's a smart person like, i hate to tell you, but steve bannon is very smart. right. or, you know, you know, but i guess so was goebbels. but but, you know that's the comparative for me. but you have to pay attention to what they're saying. and so i read all of steve

bannon. i read all of peter's, and some of them were terrible like when he when he and david sachs rape to belated regret, said rape was belated regret. and i wrote a about that that's why they don't like kara swisher but they wrote it. i didn't write it. they wrote it. so they should take responsibility for their stupidity and cruelty. but one of the things about him that's interesting is he's got a viewpoint about the world, which is let's break it completely down, destroy it. right. and create a new in which an uber ceo runs everything right. he has a point of view and it's not authoritarianism. it's a new way of thinking. it's like a ceo. it's like founder mode or whatever. that kind thing. and so i think he is very behind the scenes. he's the one that j.d. vance and which my favorite expression, rachel maddow calls him peter thiel's failed. and i would agree wasn't very good at tech. he was a terrible and now he's probably going to be president.

i actuarial tables he's trump is old too. like he could be president at any time and so and i don't not want anything to happen violence is repulsive i have to say he's in line and so paid $30 million to get him elected to the senate and got him to the like. that's a very good and bad investment, a small investment to get him. and he is i'm sorry his his he is i call him a billionaire's butler but. that's a different way to put it. but i think he's bought himself in a very smart way into that. so he has influence and. i think he has influence. j.d., who used to be very anti-trump right. and i don't particularly think peter likes trump either. you know, you can sort of like i think he's a vehicle for him essentially. and one of the things it'll be interesting how much he engages because he's not doing the performative stuff that elon's doing, like hanging at mar a lago and like waving to people on the patio. that's strange. that's such a strange. it goes into elon. i mean, peter is a background

guy. usually and makes these well you know who he is. i mean i think he's very open about his beliefs which is yeah that's correct and which i appreciate he's not hiding anything about who he is but i think we don't realize degree of 100% or remove himself there were some personal things that were going on but he did remove himself for a little while but if you back i did an interview i used to carry a little camera, a little flip phone was a flip cam. it was called flip mama. and i used to do videos of all these guys and i have a 15 minute argument with. peter thiel on it very early. i went over to this. he was over in the presidio and we were debating everything like all this stuff. facebook's valuation, this is that he's gay. we were talking, he was like gay people shouldn't have special rights. i was like, how about equal rights? and he goes, i go, why can someone we had this amazing discussion about that. now he has kids. he may have a different point of view. and and so it was it was he was really and he was very

pugnacious he's some of the stuff is weird. some of it's interesting. but he definitely the brains of the opera he was he was the brains of the operation back at paypal right he was the brains facebook you know he facebook. yes. he made a $500,000 investment for 7 to 10% of that company and had a good at not a good influence but he had an influence on mark clearly compared to say you know the bizarre stylings of marc andreessen or whoever theodor is very clear. so i pay attention to him more and what he's funding. right. got all tight with the mercers and that kind of stuff. amazing. yeah. so he's sort of the george soros, the george soros that. that's interesting. so let's talk ron. i want to get to elon. so when i left out the google guys, we could get to the google guys. but let's start with iran because. i think we're all talking about elon to some degree. when i went into writing about elon, i saw him. i dylan, i thought elon is like a da vinci. he's in the same sentence as

these great not inventors, but someone who's taking the world forward. and i think he's more like it. i think it's more like a ford and he's a business innovator because he didn't invent many of these things the one thing but he got them taking a jobs wasn't a coder but he understood and he knits things and his force of his personality he's more like that, i would say. right. and and then there's a big change with elon. yes. i think it has to do with twitter. when he took over twitter dealing that it was before that because i've done probably more interviews like long term interviews of them than anybody. and he he was so challenging and interesting. and one of the things is at some point when everyone was making a lot of money, everyone shifted doing stupid, stupid things like, you know, and i joke about this, but they're like, yeah, we're going to digitize dry cleaning. i'm like, how? like it's basically an app and they pick it up, right? that's it. thank you. it was so uncreative, so uninteresting, but it was like that. and so, and all of them were like swanning around like, we're

going to make investments here as if they had, they had one lucky job at google and they thought were a genius and they were tiresome and exhausting. he was not. he was investing in cars. he was investing. and even hydrogen hyperloop, even neuralink was interesting. there's plenty other companies besides neuro like not that, you know, autonomy. waymo is so far ahead of tesla doesn't have anything and he good. i liked his p.t. barnum thing had going on a lot of it is p.t. barnum like yeah we're going to start robotaxis like i've been riding him in for san francisco for three years now. like right? you might. i introduce to waymo. it's been going for many years, but he was really interesting. and then the and the space stuff, was it was challenging and things that were also digital. and he also had the force of personality. he also was very funny, like you know, people often say that about trump in the days now it's sort of curdle into whatever happening right now. but he had a sense of humor and it was very juvenile. and i would say he had percent

of what he is 100% now. he had 5% of meanness and weird angry ness rage. you could feel it like. but it was very small. it never showed very much. now you heard all these stories of what he did to his his poor daughter and stuff like that. but he was really interesting compared to them, like he was different. and we talk we talk once a week, which texts a lot and stuff like because he was always i was like, huh, that was interesting. this was interesting. and he would admit failure, which wasn't was just unusual. the person does it now is mark cuban. he does absolutely was great yeah who's who is sort of arrogant now is terrific which is interesting he's he's gone the other direction it's called maturity. you know but you don't that in silicon valley very often the opposite like toddlerhood and that's an insult toddlers i have one and and so what interesting about him is he was so challenging and interesting and

then things started shift like very quickly he was also somewhat i can't believe i'm saying this, but was sort of poignant like it was random to at some oscar party and he's like i've anyone to date do you know anyone? i'm like, i'm not fixing you up with anybody. like, there's nobody i want near you because. i think there's a lot going on there that. i don't want a woman involved with that. i know. and so. so he was he was he was interesting. it always orthogonal. i like orthogonal. and he was that he was you're like, oh i hadn't thought of that kind of thing. and jobs was very much that, too. he's not jobs. let me just say, i know steve jobs. he wasn't my friend, but he's no steve jobs. that's what i would say about him. but he was he was interesting. then we did an interview during covid well, first he got really mad about something walt tweeted and, decided not to talk to me for a year because of walt tweet. and it was weird. walt i love my tesla, but i don't understand how it's worth all for car companies something.

elon had actually said himself, but walt said it. he got mad and then he's i'm never speaking again because of walt and was like, first of all, you idiot, he loves this -- tesla is your problem. he wasn't talking about you talking about wall street. didn't matter. it this weird, like anger thing and i ran into him. he texted me a year later, he's like, why are we talking? i'm like, because you told me never to talk to you again. like, it was weird. yes weird and capricious and but then during covid, we did an interview that was on zoom and he you could see him curdling with covid it was he was all mad at state of california for being responsive all about it was very early on right and he said you know i've read all the studies there's only going to be about 15 people dying from covid. this is what he said to me. i was like, oh, doctor, well, be good to know like what the --? and older people get reference and or doctor george clooney fine, whatever. and i was like, i don't know the

history of of pandemics million people to die. that's usually the bottom rung the number that die. it seems like. and also i said we don't know what we don't know. so being cautious is good idea necessarily. no, it's not know what's going to happen. it was really i read like you could see he probably stayed up all night, read all the studies and he started talking hydrochloric acid, all this stuff. and i was like, well, you know, you do say this to elon musk, right? but he got like, crazy. and he goes, i'm going to just what do you want me to walk out right now? like, if it was like some, you know, over bread horse something and he's our dog or poodle and he was and he was like, i could leave. now i go, okay, though. and he's like, well, i could. and i said, okay. and then he's like, you want me to go? and i go, no, but you think this was so ridiculous it was so like, i'm like, ah, like i'm a lesbian. and this is dramatic for me. like this is ridiculous. and and then he didn't go right. he go and we texted back, i trump he was on some of his

committees and stuff like that, and he started to get this is another thing. we did an interview in which he which he teared up he said he didn't cry but he did he said that if when tesla in real trouble for a while there and slept on the floor of the factory and i was like, you know, there was a hotel next door and he's like, i had to sleep on the floor of the factory to show people. i'm like, no, you did you or is it just performative, right? as like there's a hotel you could have gone over there going to sleep, come back like it was so stupid and, and he did stuff like that. and at one point he said to me, if tesla doesn't survive. humanity is doomed, a version of that. and i was like, wow, okay. like we're going in a different direction now. sure. if i had heard from a homeless guy on the street, i across the right, like that kind of thing and but he was elon so you have to listen to him and so which is where we are now and and and then he got more and more he got mad at that and then he was fine he came we did a very funny interview which he compared jeff bezos as rockets to small -- was

funny they are they do like small --. it's weird that design is weird and i mean all rockets but that one in particular. and so he was fine. then i tweeted something, he stays up late at night and then obviously journal's written about his drug use right. the megalomania as he gets richer and richer kind of increases all these enablers and and the and all the good people that he interact with fell away whether. you can think what you want about sam altman but they were very close. same thing with reid hoffman all of them the ones that were reasonable all mark right all the way and all the enablers come in. aren't you the smartest person in the world? blah, blah. and and then i started to see some i was heard from some of the personal stuff that disturbing i found disturbing. and and he got mad at me and called me an --. that was it. and. and this is amazing. i could talk you forever, but i think we're going to open it up for a questions now and see what you guys want to ask for the time we've left.

so with the time we have left, i'm able to entertain one question. oh well, okay, so. oh, no we only got one question in. no, that's a lot of pressure. you can listen to pivot every twice a week. so you're in you're here in south florida. you've probably seen a lot of billboards for crypto and guys. oh, yeah. you haven't mentioned anything about crypto. what are your thoughts on that you were at as you you're very good at looking out. did you buy bitcoin? when i was one, i actually when i did one of the original stories about bitcoin because a guy named wences casares who started xapo i came was very intrigued by the he was from i think argentina. and so it made sense for a country, argentina, where they had massive inflation to be cryptocurrency. and so i bought ten bitcoin and at the time put it on a hard there weren't wallets then or anything else and put it on on a little thumb drive. i think and i've lost it. no i bought it for dollars at

the time i think in bitcoin. yes i do somewhere i'll find it someday. but sure couldn't access it i'm guessing because i don't remember the code. i think i'm interested in it. i'm not against. i think it needs regulation it's not going to have now. gary gensler, gary gensler over did i thought that said i mean it's like the early internet it's of of charlatans and people who make you know it's a speculative instrument right now and it doesn't seem to have any efficacy. so ultimately, it's just a speculative instrument. and where is it going to have the efficacy? i think there was big boom in it. and then sam bankman-fried kind of pulled back on that. so you see fraud and game playing. you know, it's at 98,000 now because they think trump's going to start a bitcoin reserve. but that's not that's not give underlying value to me the real focus should be on i almost like what's happening now is a cambrian explosion much the same way mobile was even more so

what's happening is really massive and you see the money flowing to it. maybe too much. you know, india is now the most company in the world. they're like cisco in a way. and in the early days of the internet. and so you're going to see if i was focusing i mean, i think crypto is part of it and that's going to go up and down. it's to me, it's a casino and. again, i don't see the use case for it yet as except as a speculative instrument value. well, you got to hang out with the winklevoss anymore. no, i do not. i never do. oh man. those two that they were perfectly depicted in that movie years. i'll tell you those two and they get hurt. they get hurt. they're like, you're mean to us. i'm like, does deservedly voice would love your thoughts on blue and chad djibouti. fascinating for you. i just did entire episode of on with kara about this you can listen to it but very briefly i'd use them all very promiscuous with social media. i'm not on twitter largely because i don't like being called the c-word by elon all

day long. i just don't care. i think it's a nazi -- bar. and you stop using it. it's not and it's not useful. my businesses and it's just mean it me feel bad i have 1.6 million followers and i'm off of it so how much it annoys me. it doesn't help me, by the way. it doesn't help me so it doesn't matter. i wouldn't be there if it did help me. but i liked blue sky. my wife loves the sky. went to brown university so she would. but one of the things that she said, i like threads. i think it's a good product. i actually do think it's a good price. i know all these people. so my wife's like threads is like the cheesecake factory and blue sky is like the cool brooklyn bar, right? and i'm like, i like that cheesecake factory. it's really good cheesecake. it's delicious. and they have chicken poppers. yeah. you know, so it's you want i think you should try it like linkedin can be very good for a lot of people. i think you should try them all. i love blue sky. i love the ceo and the ceo of

blue sky. they're fantastic people. i think there's i think there's going to a fractionalization of all these social networks. so go where you like, make the social network you like. if you like white supremacy. if i got a social network for you, right. so go there if you like that. if you want to be beat. can i do use it all the time? i like it. i think it's the last thing i'd say is, you know, one of the things they talk about are these echo, right? and we are in echo. we are. what's interesting, they love to talk about the left being in an echo chamber. what do you think the right is in their in their own echo chamber. and then they complain about our give me a friggin break. i what would be interesting is to get off of social media because it isn't and get out and get out and have more community things like this let me tell you this is this is astonishing to me to see all these young people know, listen to podcasts, listen to all kinds of podcasts. that's different thing start to participate in and events and

things like and have a mixed hybrid thing. and that's where i and i think the real problem is the problem with all these devices is they're addictive. you cannot live without them from work point of view and a social point of and and and and they're necessary. they're necessary to to to working through the world and so the addictive part makes a real problem. and i often think that people 30 to 55 are really the actual problem kids right. my kids aren't on social media, they use they use read to discover and find things my older kids but it's you have like i always say at the end of this burn book, i say, you know, you kind of use that line from that good that great movie. i go, you know, look up, look the, -- up and use it for what it is, is a tool versus what it's become which is a weapon. every technology ever made from the beginning of time. and i would tell one more quick story i advise you to read you

harare's book. i did a great interview with him. it's called nexus, and i yuval was like, all the tech people love that book. remember? they were like, carrot, did you know all this about -- sapiens? i'm like, i did because i went to college, like, but glad you're now learning it, boys. but one of the this book is really amazing because it's kind of it's an indictment of tech really in many ways. but one of the things he says and you go and read it because many every technology has, its deleterious and positive effects. when the gutenberg press was invented the best selling book, this is the first time books were widely distributed was not the bible. it was not copernicus that came to hundreds some years later. you know what it was a book by a crazy bipolar message genius name heinrich kramer. it was called the hammer of witches. and it was a manual of how to find and kill witches and guess who they were women.

right. hundreds of thousands of women died in the ensuing 200 years. the deleterious effects of this today, if you the hammer which is which i did, it's all through. q and on same stuff same ideas around women and some of it's funny like that there is a women take men's which seems to be a theme throughout time. and let me tell you, boys mostly are interested in --, not women, not me in particular, but in general. why would why we collect? so this idea was which is men's -- and put them in a -- tree in a nest and keep them like this in this book. and it's like and i was kind of like, oh, that's interesting. like, but why? and then this one man comes and gets his -- and he wants to take another person's -- because. it's bigger. this is all in this book, which is fantastic. and then he's like, no, that's the vicar's --. you can't take that --. anyway, read this book. it's so good selling this book right now and so good but we

don't. henrik but here's the thing. it's the same thing. it's the same thing. and eventually the use for copernicus and the renaissance and eventually we use for great things. but right now, we are in the friggin hammer of witches right now, and we need to emerge from that period. but it's constant with every technology, with every ship, there's a shipwreck, which is what i use in the book. fantastic. are we? oh, i think we still have time to be a as someone that speaks powerful people. yeah, i work for nonprofits and right now comes up ministration there are at risk. i'm talking to the microsoft that someone that speaks to powerful i work for for nonprofit arts and right now trump is saying he might take some nonprofits which are

terrorists which it's arts poetry what i'm up for what what is do you follow your gut again, powerful people you analyze how is your process and are you ever scared like i am? you know what i'm scared of scary things. that's it. powerful people are just mostly flawed people, many of whom hadn't been hugged enough as a child and one of the things i think about is everyone's the same so i treat them exactly the same and they find to be good people focus in on that. and i'll say it if they're not, well, what they going to do? like i'm like, bring it on. like, what are you going to do? i mean, they could sue me oblivion, but okay, the sandy's already cut through 2 million. what's the sandy already cut 32. who does the sandy's 32 million in grants for the arts. i feel. i agree. it's a huge we have to do organize don't fall prey this

idea that you cannot win it back in 2004 the democrat party was eviscerated. guess what happened in the many years bill that to 2004. what year was bill clinton came in anyway? this is an up and down thing. and i think these new people are terrifying in many ways. they're also incompetent in many ways. right. and so and that's not to say that that's still not scary because there's some among some of these people already, they -- it up. it seems like. i'm like, what are you doing, you idiots? you the other thing i focus in on is literally look at the numbers is half and half, almost exactly. we at the democrat. i'm i'm a democrat. lost, lost in the wrong places. but they didn't lose by that much. and so what do you do with those numbers? it's like if you i got what i did because scott was going on about landslide trump's landslide is number 46 or 45 and presidential landslide guys. biden won by 4.3%. trump up by 1.2.

that's a landslide. he just won in the right places. that said, we should pay attention to what the people over on the other side are saying and what bothered them and what got wrong and figure out how to serve people. and i think any politician that serves people and figures out what their problems are listening to all sides, not just not just like the maga people, we can listen to some of them not listen, but they should be listening to us too. like that's the thing. i went to kentucky to visit. they always do silicon holler, silicon beach. they did it here for like on sand or whatever. it's ridiculous i went there and i said, listen, nobody from silicon valley is coming here to open up a company i'm sorry, they're not you're not trained enough. it's easier to do it offshore, blah, blah. they appreciated that i came to talk to them and they were some people were like, i'm so glad someone came here to talk to and listen to our our issues. and i did. i was like, what's your issues about? and they were like, well, is coal mining coming back? i'm like, no, they're going to

have robotics. it you're that owner over there. the minute he can replace you with a robot, he's to do it. he's going to lie to you about, it but he's going to do it because he wants to make money and you better pay attention to that. and so we had this great dialog and. they're like, thank you for coming to talk to us. i said, you've never been to san francisco to talk to me. come on to san francisco. and here my life i think it was a really interesting thing. then we found a lot of commonality. like they had all these issues around gay people and i started talking about my kids, my family. it goes a long way once you start to realize the commonality america has divisive works on the internet, so does hope it really does. and that's where, you know, let's get back to cat videos. i feel i love that. people think we have time. by the way, everybody go see wicked everybody goes is so good. i did a great interview with jon, who's such a great director. so it's great. it's really good. even the men, it's really good.

sure, go ahead. it's not barbie down. all right. on the theme of leaders ai. so there's a couple of players in the in the space race have them at deepmind and dario at. i'm having a hard time hearing you solve their problems. there are some some new leaders in the space of ai are there what have them is that deepmind dario at a trough it's been around a while but go ahead but they are you know they are the forefront of leading some of the biggest changes in technology and not many people knew them. you know, five or ten years ago. so what's your impression of them? are we in good hands with one of the biggest changes that we're facing in the future? you know, my worry right now, i, i broke that story of deep google deepmind. i was super interested in that because i really was focused on about ten years ago. it was sort of interested in because my idea was i thinking google was so neanderthal that we type things in and then it came back to us, right? like why doesn't come out? why doesn't the information come at right. why do we have to compile it ourselves like it's artisanal, like, i'll go get this, i'll go

good here. it's sort of like shopping used be right. and so i was very interested. the idea that information reveals itself to you, all of it together that was going to be that. and it's been around forever. why? i just have called it different things. but but what's happened is there's been mix of computing, of computing data is critical. and and energy use like the ability to really step it up now is where we are. so we've gone from sort of, you know, not so smart to dolphins to where it's going right. and so i think some of them are really interesting. many of them are flawed. i think i like them a little better than the earlier group. but my issue is every one of these companies like openai. is $157 billion valuation. and it's a startup stop me like that is like that is not small so and by way it has a microsoft investment has an amazon investment matt is spending billions of dollars nobody can keep up here without spending of

dollars. and therefore the four major players are the same players who brought us partially the insurrection, right? like who brought us apart is polarization and everything else and no responsibility. and of privacy and no entity trust. this is the this is my is it's controlled by very big companies. it's so costly at this point. it's not like the early internet was not costly it wasn't cheap. and so my worries that it'll it'll it'll be dominated by the giant companies without any government involvement to worry about safety things we can agree on like killer drones maybe not like you know what i mean. like we do with nuclear energy. and so as much as i like them individually, i think big corporation are really leading this. and i worry about the lack of innovation. the google was in a was really truly in a garage and amazon was a tiny company. can they ever compete in this

environment, you know microsoft is reviving three mile island yeah it's a they are nuclear energy is a much more right do some research anyway it's it's really fossil fuels are bad that's that's just let's be clear that's what the problem really is right now for us but we have to find innovative energy solutions. the big companies control this. that worries me. the was not controlled by big companies fact it upended them. i'm i prefer i prefer the young eating. it's old. i do. i think that's better for this country. it's reason we've been ahead on everything. it's the reason democracies are better than any other system. and it's you know, china's top down and it's surveillance economy where we should be bought bottom. and that's my worry in that so anyway just i would the only i would say is all of you use it, start using it. you cannot do anything unless you understand and use it and

it's it'll you'll figure out what's good for you and what's not good for you but it will replace jobs. it will create new ones, but it will most i was talking to a pretty big the other day and he said he had 6000 coders. he goes by year will have 2000 hey i will replace of that. yeah that's the future. the future. this i think we have. well i want to thank you. that was that was that was great. thank you. all much you guys.

i. i not. book tv's live coverage of the miami book fair continues after break. i am.

so. this is not the america that my brothers and sisters and i who wear uniform risk our lives to defend these people have so completely defied all that we hold dear. and so it's personal to me and to so many others that when we swear that oath to support and defend the constitution and to

be willing to lay down our lives to ensure the safety and freedom of the american people, it is not only heartbreaking. it's maddening to see these people in the highest positions of power in our country so completely disrespecting our flag, our constitution and treating our liberty, our freedom as something that is within their power to give and, to take away as they choose. it's almost as though they haven't read the declaration independence. it's almost as though they are unaware of. the fact that our founders recognized the truth, that our rights liberties come from god and no one else, and no one in

government. are put these words into that declaration because they wanted to remind anybody who got into power, who had a crazy of thinking they could take away freedoms, this was a reminder that these are inalienable rights, endowed upon us by our creator. among them, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. you'll see in my i dedicate a chapter to this situation mindset. it's it's a chapter about god, and it's a chapter about where we gain our fundamental inalienable rights from and how dangerous it is when have people in power who ultimately believe that they are the ultimate

authority. they believe that they are a higher authority than god and that they have the power to take rights away. you can look at examples throughout examples in the present of leaders believe this and the dangerous actions that derive from those who believe they are more powerful than god. all of the outrage, all of the sadness, all the fear that i feel. it's natural for us to feel, as americans who love our country should motivate us to take action. i don't want you going home tonight depressed depressed. you're like too late.

but you won't go home tonight feeling depressed because under standing, why the democrat are doing what they are doing. it's deep down inside. they know that are weak. when we take action based on the power that is given to us in our constitution. and they know that when we stand united as americans who may have different views on different we may have different ideas on how we solve the great problems of our time, but who stand together united on the foundation of freedom and our ability to live a peaceful and prosperous society are the greatest threat to their power. and and that's that is the call action that we have. we just observe memorial day on monday, a day to pause for those

of us who have served for those of us who have lost brothers and sisters who paid that ultimate price. it's a tough day because we remember the times that we spent them. we remember the jokes and laughter that we shared. we remember those nights in the field, misery. and yet somehow enjoying our bond and, our time together. and we have this opportunity to reflect upon their sacrifice. and even with the sad in the sense of loss that we feel, celebrate who, they are and ask ourselves, how do we best honor them they sacrifice their lives in service to a country, to defend freedom? how can we defend that freedom? how can we best honor their

legacy it's by not losing sight of what we can accomplish when we, the people, stand together. it's not losing sight of the fact that our founders placed in our hands the power to have a government of, by and, for the people that reminded us that our only exists with the consent of the governed. so see our free speech under attack we have to protect the free speech of all americans. we have to stand up and, exercise our voices, use our freedom of speech to defend others whose freedom of speech may be attacked. we have to stand up for the freedom of religion in our country and make sure that our government protects that right, not only the freedom to worship as we choose, but to express that in the way that we choose, whether it in private or in public.

we have to stand up and, recognize the fact that our founders passed the second amendment after the first for a very specific reason they understood the fragility of this system of democracy and how those in power are too often tempted to abuse that power. and so they they passed the second amendment after the first in the event of a tyrannical government trying to take away our free speech to serve as that on that abuse of power. we have to elect leaders who understand these facts, who are committed to truly upholding that oath of office, that they take, who understand that vision that are founders had for our country.

on january 27th in 1838, president lincoln delivered a speech that was powerful but is very precious to the that we are facing this country, young men's lyceum of springfield, illinois, and said, quote at what point then is the approach of danger to be expected. i answer if it ever reach us, it must spring up us. it cannot come from abroad. if destruction be our lot, we must our selves be its author and finisher as a nation of free men, we must live through all time or die by suicide. so we why is it that we have one private company determining in the medical school curricula? an education of every medical

school in the united states? they have a monopoly because they write the exams and they accredit the schools. so imagine if every college had a curriculum and standardized exams by one private company, what would that look like? you wouldn't see innovative advancements in education. and guess what? medical education is a joke. it's a joke. we are in dinosaur level practices of writing on stone tablets and memorize and regurgitate the molecules of the krebs cycle. five different points in your medical education. why we're teaching technical skills, but we're not teaching the non-tech skills, like listening and being empathetic and communicating clearly and humility. knowing your that's what makes somebody a doctor interpreting the literature critically. instead, we beat these highly altruistic young people. this memorize and regurgitate

culture. you memorize all these drugs, you regurgitate, you come out with a reflex, you put your head down, you see things just are bizarre. they make no sense. they violate every piece of intellectual curiosity in your brain. and you're told, put your head down. just keep memorizing, regurgitate taking a five centimeter margin for a melanoma in the leg. but a half a centimeter margin, if it's on the face and nobody asks, well, wait. they have different results of the same results. the average age of puberty goes down 1.5 weeks every year for the last 30 years, kids having puberty now years prior earlier than what they had just half a century ago. is anyone asking why it when pancreatic cancer rates in the last 20 years? is anyone asking why when the first day of anatomy class and i'm curious your experiences were in the first day of anatomy. i remember we saw the lung the first time i saw the actual lung, and it was black. and, you know, i was appalled.

all of us and the instructor saw our reaction and said, oh that's because this cadaver that we're dissecting was someone who lived in a city and who live in a city, their lungs are black. but don't worry, it doesn't hurt you. and i just thought it's amazing how dismissive we are on these big topics, stirring three glasses of milk a day for every adult. that's a recommendation that still on to this day, still. is anyone questioning the deeply held assumption we students didn't. but the fact that there's i would argue the fact that the the medical organized medical profession basically arranged to have a monopoly on the medical school accreditation system and, the residency accreditation system has contributed because there's no competition of ways to educate people right now. you have david, you had you had the advantage of both getting an m.d., where you got to regurgitate, memorize, and then a jd, it was take both the best

argument on each side of an issue and so that was an interesting did you have like whiplash of that professional? socialization is very powerful but don't assume law doesn't its share of memorization and regurgitation often is the building block to then trying to sort out a problem of medical education and has been criticized for a longer. i think any of us have been on this earth. and i remember a long time ago when i was in medical school, you know, the the latest iteration of people parachuted in to try and medical education tried to make us more ethical. and there had been iterations and there have been subsequent. it's it's a real challenge. the thing to understand about medical school curricula and about law school curricula, people