, little tiny karen. i tell you what needs to be cut. you need to cut out the insider information and that crooked trading that is making all of these fat cats rich. these politicians for years, it's horrible, all of this oil is coming off of the united states land. that is our money. but they are rich off of it. they know what they are doing. they are giving everyone sweetheart deals. now they are scared to desks -- scared to death that elon musk may expose them. host: kiki, massachusetts, democrat, good morning. caller: i'm not sure i'm qualified to state what should be cut but i think they should invest in the irs, because i believe statistics have shown that when you hire more irs workers and invest in the irs, you can recover quite a bit of

money for the government. my final comment would be i don't think anyone wants to have waste in government. of course there will be waste. but the way that trump is going about it is slash and burn and it's not a professional way to go about trying to save money and i really wonder about elon musk's motives i'm sure if someone looked at his company, there would be a lot of waste. thank you very much, john. go>> washington journal continu. host: we are back this morning with matt barnum, of the k-12 education reporter at the wall street journal here to talk about this headline. trump advisors away plan to dismantle education department. matt barnum tell us about your reporting. what did you learn. guest: what my colleagues and i reported earlier this week is the trump administration

officials are weighing executive orders at dismantling the u.s. department of education. it is consistent with the campaign promise he made to end the department. we don't know when or if for sure they will be issued or what they will say. this is still in flux but we are reporting they are considering an order that would shut down all functions of the agency that aren't explicitly written into the statute and considering in order to come up with a legislative proposal to abolish the department. host: why is it that they would have to come up with a legislative proposal and why is it they can only eliminate those parts that are not written in statute? guest: because there is a lot the department does and the departments existence itself that are in statute. so the department was established by congress with the support of jimmy carter in 1979 and there are things the department does like title i funding just funding for low income students at k-12 schools

or funding for students with disabilities that are in statute. so you cannot just stamp your fingers through executive order legal experts say, to get rid of the department or the things it does. host: what we know about congress taking up legislation that would abolish the education department? guest: there has been legislation introduced by republican members of congress to do so but it is a pretty steep hill to climb to make that a reality. legal experts i've talked to say you would need a 60 votes super majority in the senate to eliminate the department. i'm not aware of any democrats who support ending the department. and some of the things the department does are pretty popular even in red areas and conservative leaning areas. and polls showing that illumine -- eliminating the department itself is not to do any favors. that said, voters are also pretty dissatisfied with public schools right now and we don't

know how much political capital trump might spend on the issue. i don't want to make any firm predictions. host: what is popular with americans -- with the education department and the functions. guest: i would say generally the least locally funding for low income students and students with disabilities if that -- if at commute he sees cuts coming out of the local school where you have to lay off a teacher or an aide that is going to get a lot of backlash. student loans are popular with the constituents who receive them. though there are some who are skeptical. i think what's less popular is a sense of federal meddling in local education decisions and it's also worth noting that some of these issues are very sensitive to how the questions are worded. so we don't necessarily know for sure how voters feel. host: how if the unions

responded? guest: the unions are very skeptical of eliminating the department of education. and i think they are especially skeptical of eliminating the funding that comes with the department of education. the interesting history is the international education association, the largest teachers association pushed for the department to be created under jimmy carter but the other big teachers union, the american federation of teachers at the time was against creating the department. that said, by now, the associations of teachers and other people who work in the department -- who work in schools are very skeptical of eliminating the department. host: we want our viewers to join us in this conversation about the education department here in washington. here is how you can do that. republicans dial in at 202-748-8001. 202-748-8000 democrats202-748-8000. and independents 202-748-8002.

you can send us a text at 202-748-8003. include your first name, city and state you can post on x with the handle @cspanwj or on facebook.com/c-span. elon musk tweeng out running campaign debt rangampaigned on ending the federal part of education but it was bigger when reagan left office and when he started pride not this time. what role is elon musk playing in this? guest: what we reported is the education department is among the agencies that his department of governmental efficiency is looking at as part of its efforts to evolve federal pre-chrissy. some of his representatives were working out of the main education department building in washington and obviously he has been very enthusiastic on social media about ending the department. host: want to show the viewers what our president had to say

about this to reporters in the oval office on tuesday when he was asked about his plans for the education department. take a look. [video clip] >> why nominate linda mcmahon to be the education department. >> because i told him linda i hope you do a great job and put yourself out of a job. i want her to put yourself out of a job. education department. we are ranked number 40 out of 40 schools. we are ranked number one across so we spend more per pupil than any other country in the world and we are ranked at the bottom of the list. and what i want to do is let the states run schools. i believe strongly in school choice but in addition to that i want the states to run schools and i want linda to put herself out of a job. host: matt barnum. guest: yeah, there's a lot to unpack. one thing i would note is i believe president trump is right that the u.s. as a very high spending country in terms of education.

also a very wealthy country but we are not ranked quite as low as he is saying. we are typically in the middle of the pack which is nothing to brag about. so i'm not aware of the 40 out of 40. his appointment of linda mcmahon was interesting, she was a cofounder of wwe, world wrestling entertainment and a donor and supporter of trump. her background in education is limited but she trained to become a teacher and served on the connecticut state board of education. he has obviously told her that he wants her to work to dismantle the department that she will likely run if she is confirmed. host: talking about the education department. here are some statistics for you. u.s. pre-k education sysm has more than 49 million students, more than 3 million full-time equivalent teachers in plic elementary and secondary schools. public school per student expenditure is $15,591 according

to the national center for education statistics. the u.s. to partner education began operating in 1980 and employs over 4000 people and its budget for 2024, 238 billion. howard in salisbury, north carolina, a caller. what are your questions on the education department? caller: top of the morning to you. i am a proud product of public education. and as you can see, it is very vital to not just african-americans, it's for all americans. for one thing you're all on the same court. to me it sounds as though 20 project went 25 is in effect because if you look at the 2025 project, it has that in there. not only that, it will also

divide our children which we do need diversity to be able to survive when you're going through adolescence. so i look at what they are doing is trying to overturn brown v. board of education because segregation i believe is trying to make a comeback. host: matt barnum. guest: on projects 2025 it is true the head of projects 2025, had the goal of limiting the department of education but that was also a trump campaigned on separately from project when he 25. it was not a secret during his campaign that that is what he wanted to do. i cannot comment specifically on the goal and the link to segregation, that certainly isn't something that i have seen. there has been evidence that our schools remain quite segregated and stratified by race and family income. and that has not really gotten better in a few decades.

there is little indication the policymakers of either party are interested in tackling that issue. host: deborah in columbia, maryland, independent. caller: i am a schoolteacher and one of the concerns that i had about the department of education being eliminated is the lack of standardization of curriculum throughout the state. so there are some basics that i think all citizens should know with regards to science, mathematics, social studies, especially in this day and age where you have interactions between different countries, they need to be respectful. so my concern is again the states being able to decide the curriculum instead of suit organization -- certain standardization that all need to know. i would appreciate if guest could try to address that.

thank you so much. host: i don't -- guest: i don't think a limiting the department of education would necessarily have an effect on that because states set standards and curriculum and the district also set curriculum. the department of education by law is restricted in its ability to dictate local curriculum. so i don't necessarily see that as overlapping. that said, there are some folks who want the department of education to take more of an aggressive stance to intervene when schools are struggling. that is what it did under no child left behind. under current law it has some provisions for that but relatively limited. host: patty in florida, republican. caller: how are you. my concern is the ranking. the part of education is showing it's been a bad system. we had school choice and some of the states and it showed that the children do much better with

this. all we hear about is the teachers, of the union but we don't talk about our children and education. i -- i had a much better curriculum than what is being taught today. so when you get to these different areas, money is thrown at certain sections but the basics of teaching our children is no longer there. and i believe that is the biggest concerned. host: matt barnum. guest: i think you've sort of spoken to the heart of the question, is that apartment of education helping or not helping schools. certainly advocates for the department say what it does is important and the money it spends is important and critics say it has not been helpful and has not made a difference. host: you said president trump would target certain functions of the education department through executive orders paid which ones? >> i don't think we know yet. i think the ones that he could

more easily target are some of the smaller ones that are not written into statute. those are not the ones that are going to really make a big difference or have an impact either on the budget or at the school level. >> he has signed a number of executive orders related to education since taking office prude what do they do? what changes would they bring to classrooms. >> he signed several so there is one that aims to expand school choice which means could be public funding for private schools, though the executive order is relatively limited. he's also signed an executive order aimed at restricting transgender women from participating in women's sports. then he signed an executive order trying to get what he calls a radical indoctrination of k-12 schooling which target certain practices related to gender and transgender rights as well as race and what supporters call diversity initiatives or antiracism in schools. he has directed his apartment --

department to investigate school systems that are pushing what might be described as liberal policies. what's interesting is this is in tension with his promise to limited the department of education and get the feds at public schools print so we will see how this plays out. >> a headline in the wall street journal from your reporting, trumps school choice agenda hits pushback from red state voters. what did you find out? guest: a lot of red states have passed school choice initiatives which typically means some sort of public funding or public subsidy for private schools. that has passed in red state legislatures across the country. however it was recently similar initiatives were recently put up for a vote in kentucky and nebraska. voters in these very red states even as they were electing president trump in 2024 voted down private school choice efforts.

and that caught a lot of people by surprise and suggests at least in those couple of states that there is a disconnect between what the red state voters want and what some of the red state elected officials are pushing. host: edna in chicago, a democratic caller pretty here from you. caller: good morning. my question was why? everybody is talking about the education, speaking of the 25th. i suggest they start looking at the 25th amendment in the constitution. to get rid of a president who can no longer govern. this is what we have now. not only education but if you educate yourself and see what's happening with this guy we have for a president, you will see. he has dementia, he is an old man with dementia. host: we will stick to the topic. eric in massachusetts, independent. guest: -- caller: thank you.

what i want to ask about is the cost of college. i think one of the biggest problems in the carter administration was the department of education a cabinet level. and as a result it came into effect. but that happened during the time a lot of people going to colleges were men. i agree with the equality. but that does increase the cost for college exponentially over the years. and that's that people ask me why college is so expensive, i

point to hillsdale college that had to go all the way to the supreme court to maintain their independence. and once they did, once they were successful, and they don't use any federal lines it cap costs reasonable. host: let's talk about that connection. once the education department became a cabinet level position he says that is what raised college cost because of the federal loan system. guest: i think there are certainly some folks who would argue that and i think there is some credible research to suggest that. i would be interested in seeing whether alternatives that are not aligned that he mentioned not reliant on student loans have also seen costs grow. i know in k-12 education private school costs which did very little subsidy they've also seen

their costs grow so i know it remains up for debate what is driving these costs for efforts in k-12 and higher education. host: what about research done into that people will pay this cost. the cost keeps going up and people keep paying. guest: that is another interesting you know reflection. i think these loans people do look at in most cases though we have seen some forgive and had to pay back and that does reflect the willingness to pay or at least the willingness to take out loans reflects some belief that there is at least some evidence for going to college is worth it and some sort of investment in some sort of premium. host: michelle in wisconsin, a democratic caller, good morning to you. caller: thank you for taking my call. my question is in the department of education and the schools k-12, what do you think is going

to happen to the special education classrooms and the services that the public schools provide through their schools to help students keep up such as your physical therapy, your ot and your speech and language services. host: we will have matt barnum respond. guest: i think you are referring to the individuals with disabilities education act which is a federal law which requires public schools to serve students with disabilities. and it also sends money to schools to pay for the cost of serving them. schools will say they don't get enough from the federal government. and i think that's a huge question if you were to dismantle the department what would you do with that law and the money that goes to it that

is written into the statute. i am not aware of president trump or his administration saying that they would target that it is a very big question. >> jacob republican. >> hello and good morning. >> my question was to bring attention to what i feel is a problem in our public school systems is cell as an acronym and k k cell. i listen to a long discourse by james lindsay who was speaking about the marks of the acacian of education. and instead of basic academics they are being taught how to become essentially activists and activism. and it's concerning to me and i was curious if you had any more information on that subject. >> so i believe you're referring

to scl or social emotional learning which is a set of practices that have grown in k-12 schools that advocates say are designed to help students manage their emotions and behavior. and that conservative critics say are a distraction from regular academics reading, writing and arithmetic. i would have to look at the particular examples that you referred to to really focus on that. host: daniel in pennsylvania, a democrat line. caller: i want your guest to address lobbying efforts and soft moaning the goes into public schools. and in addition to your past guest about farming and soft money lobbying efforts that keep the chemicals in our food. host: we will take the education part of that.