>> good morning, thank you so

much for joining us elderly. how are you congressman. congressman bob latta from ohio thank you for having us. i want to ask you about elon musk we've heard a lot on the news about his government efficiency efforts and one thing i would ask you about is,

you are on the energy and commerce committee we've heard from some sources about the folks who are looking to take the buyout really have the most institutional knowledge it seems our kind of a lot of talk about some of the people with a lot of expertise are looking to take the buyout. as your thinking about this are there concerns about some of the folks with the most knowledge of the agency not being there not being able to carry out the president's mission on energy? how are you thinking about this? >> i think this is my 15 year of being on the committee when he sits on the diocese energy and commerce one thing i've always said is i've been very fortunate to share the communication subcommittee. >> you've chaired all of them. >> i chaired what they now call the commerce manufacturing and

trade. one of the great things about serving on the committee is when you set up there and on that dais you are talking to people who are across the country, the entrepreneurs and innovators we don't want to put the wrong laws and regulations that follow that that would hamper them to develop what there to do one of the great things about being on the committee is going across the country and seeing what's happening and with the entrepreneurs have done it is i can remember back in the 1970s, i don't want to date myself but we were told we didn't have any energy. our allies are saying the same thing they want our lng export.

so it's always making sure we get the right rules out there the right laws first to make sure these people can do these great things we've seen accomplished in this country. the other thing is ohio, and the country my district has 86,000 manufacturing jobs i tell people, it's not that i needs energy i have to have affordable energy if i don't have affordable energy we can't get what we need. making sure we have all these things working in the right direction and ohio 83% of everything that comes in his trucks. when you think about the data centers coming online one question i asked in the last congress everybody that came before, do we have to have more energy or lust energy produced in the country everybody i don't care where they are from sub the exact same thing we have more energy correct some of the cheapest energy by the end of the decade is renewable. so as we talk about and look at

what house republicans are doing on reconciliation a lot of it is looking at targeting the incentives from inflation reduction act what are your colleagues what are you hearing from callings about the ira about that tax subsidies we seen some folks say they want to protect certain credits do you expect them to draw the lines? we have other things that play we have salt and medicaid where you hang from your colleagues? >> that's a great question if we go back to 2008 is when republicans we call it all the above energy strategy. that meant everything. the one thing that was also included was one thing the federal government was knocking to pick the winners of the universes ããwhen you look right now i'm hearing from colleagues said she got the speakers shouldn't be taking a sledgehammer we should take a scalpel and see what's working out there to make sure we can get it done.

as we go forward i think you will see a scalpel approach not a sledgehammer approach. >> do think it's a hell some people are going to die on because with competing priorities. do you think it is something that people will dig in on? >> i talked to a lot of people across my district. when i work here and i was on the road the entire time to actually see some of the innovations coming up that these companies have come up with. i look at all of these things. one of our large power companies in the state of ohio we think about intel coming online in the substations and everything else to be built and the massive amount of grid problem we have is the grid modernization when i see what

we're doing out there especially the one power company they are not looking at winners and losers they got a have as much power going in the grid as possible. so their big concern is where to get the power from and how are going to get it. so i think times have been changing over the last five years. we are also looking at small modular's and none of the we are looking to see the energy from them we should be looking at that because we stop the whole process about 1977 during the carter administration. >> that reminds me of thinking about the department of energy staffing issues is that something that you think could be a concern if there is an

effort to shrink the workforce of the federal government. >> we have an example the epa testifying before us this is one president biden was talking about what we going to do about how we have to have. i asked a very simple question the epa witness we had a couple years ago how much more energy do we have to produce in this country they can figure 4.5% which is crazy because in total it's really 50% is not even hired to make sure to go all electric. when you look at the departments they have come up ã ãif a department comes up in figures then that's what everybody has to work from if it's not seasonable how do you get there? that's one of the things that

has to be questions in the departments is whatever they are doing is can be looking at reality and not what they would like what they would like what's the reality of the situation? look at the americans and the driving habits and look at the ages of our fleets got up to about 12 years. >> i want to ask you about permitting because part of the issue here is permitting. it's also a workforce question and trade. and interior are the department of energy there are there issues with moving the permits through the system if they are on a steeper place to do that. >> when we think about permitting an committee we have to do something.across the aisle there is a concern that it's taking too long. if you look at the projects they want to bring online, we

look at communist china they talk about bringing on another 100 power stations in the near future pjm has shown that what they are doing the rto that we are taking off generation of the same time the powers are going up. when we think about we want to make sure the environment is protected i never had anybody say an committee that they are against regulation. across our entire everything we regulate in the committee is they say the same thing the ãã it's taking so long by the time a permit might be approved just at the last second somebody has another lawsuit. permitting is something i know not just energy and commerce but national resources it's going to be something they are really working with the other. we have to make sure things are done right but you can't keep things from ever happening and we know right now if we are

going to have more power across the country how do you get from point a to point b? >> has the talk started have you started chatting with folks about ããthere were the permitting talks but picked up and i rush of meetings at the end of last year last ditch effort have those restarted? have you been talking to people? >> absolutely. it's hard to believe we are almost a sixth through the year we are it will be march and april will be gone. i know the talks of going. what we need to get done on permitting have to get everybody at the table to get it done. i believe we can do it and we can get it done but it's not that kenwood has to get it done if we put off for another congress not getting permitting done were to be so much for the behind and we can't keep falling behind in the rest of the world. when we talk about the data

centers coming online if we want to be at the top of the world on these things the number one issue will be on the power side. the power has to get from point a to point b permitting is going to be a huge part of making sure that gets done. >> the broad contours of the deal last year were about some changes on the natural resources side the national environmental policy act, maybe some other laws, looking at tightening review periods in exchange for amending the federal power act making it easier to build power lines across state lines. historically republicans of handsome concern about imminent domain concerns building off transmission lines do you if i'm back to the debt ceiling negotiations right, if we

simplify this and democrats wanted permitting, they basically didn't get it they got a government study that some thought was counterproductive and some modest changes, and my understanding was at the time energy and commerce numbers said we don't want to do transmission. there were issues with it some people so there's not much education. has that change has there been because the pressure from the tech industry and republicans have an interest in leading on ai maybe you had some center-right groups come in and do briefings. has that changed? >> in the last couple years just looking at the half and generation needs or electrical needs where were going to be in the next few years it's gone off the chart. people were thinking about maybe five or six years ago and

respecting that timeframe. the horizon is here today and when you look at the power generation needs that we have to have if we are going to get it have to be through permitting. that's gonna speed things up because everybody's realizing. the bar graphs are going straight up so i think of making people decide that we have to get this done because we can't just put this off because you have a fall way behind the rest of the world and the united states has got to lead and not follow. >>. >> there's a lot of members.

so what are some of the discussions look like at this point? fair fair amount of education he's over what kinds of things are you planning to do in subcommittee. >> overall the committee we have 10 new members on the site alone i think five on the democrat side. when you look at the numbers we've never seen turnover like this before. some of the new members coming out of the committee got great backgrounds and different areas where they have expertise and it's really great. we can use to help with that information to committee but like everything else with energy and commerce yet the show up it's not like just waiting to hear times you can ask questions of the committee and rundown for five minutes. it's stunning like being back at school. you have to read this and get ready because the energy and commerce committee.

it is the greatest committee in congress. we have the broadest jurisdiction. is a large committee that we cover everything. every 15 to 20 minutes during the day you're never doing the exact same thing. on committee that's the same thing for the new committee members have several freshmen that easily have ever had that many freshmen, too many but when you have freshmen coming on or other people coming on from different committees it's like it's a new experience because we cover everything out there you have to be prepared and ready to go every time we have a hearing. >> what's the committee's role looking like as reconciliation. on the energy side. there's a healthcare piece too.

we had our first subcommittee hearing it was pretty much laying the groundwork we have to have more power i think you're going to see i know chairman guthrie will be having another full committee hearing we were talking about the ai data centers everything that's coming from them so everybody has to realize that we are in isolation that we haven't seen in years that the amount of power we have to have it's not picking winners and losers the baseload is tremendous. the united states has ããwhen you look at emission reductions from 2005 to 2020 the great thing about this country we can do but if you want carbon emissions it's ããwe also have

to have all the other traditional's we have to look at the remittances the same time. when you think about the data centers and what they require the amount of power this year alone talking about before the end of the year up to 8% more power usage all of this requires power so i think when i look at subcommittee we are looking at we have to have the generation the next question is what about the grid modernization. cybersecurity issues. the supply chain, it's one thing leads to the other even the power you have to be able to move it. how are you going to get there. >> republicans have talked about all the above has been the catchphrase for a long time. which of course seeing president trump personal beef

with wind power. does not undermine congressional republicans talking points on all of the above. >> going back to ohio when i see what a large company is doing there one of our power companies trying to get as much power on the grid as possible so important if you're thinking about what we are going to be able to do with the data centers online depending on where you are in the country, not picking winners and losers that's what's working. it's also what get the power into the grid. how much power do we get in the grid. to make the security that we need to have that not just this year but the years gone.>> you don't necessarily take president trump all that seriously? >> i think the committee as we look at the issues that we

realize there's a massive need for the power. on the intermittent side the question about battery storage that's an issue we don't have a lot i talk to the large energy producers that have intermittent's and they don't have too many hours of storage. you always have to have parallel source running along with it because i was talking to somebody recently some of the gas fire plants out there where they needed to hit different times they need to have that coming online almost running full right now because it's continuous. so the need is there and it's great because when i think about 86,000 manufacturing jobs is important but also important that we keep things running and keep things up in 2014 we had a

massive polar vortex in the winter across the ohio, we had not one but getting to the 2020 electives and 27, if you go to the pgm website it's shows that the generation is going down at the same time needs are going up. >> thank you so much for joining us. we are out of time. i appreciate we have a timer i see. good morning everybody. my name is ben lafave i'm a

reporter at politico i cover energy. i have here representative randy weber from texas 's district is like a big energy sandwich refineries and sweeney and lng ports in freeport in the. you've got refineries in beaumont and galveston which is port of entry into houston ship channel got more pipelines than italy had spaghetti. if you want to talk about energy he's going to do it. first thing i want to ask i apologize we are a little bit late but what is the national energy emergency room got record oil outputs we got more lng would know what to do with we've got renewables scaling up pretty quickly is there an emergency there? we have 24 minutes. >> i'm in the upper gold coast of texas we have ããour

district in texas produces 65 percent of the nation's jet fuel. [inaudible] we have three lng plants. we are big big big on energy. yes well it's true we are producing a lot of oil right now we are in an energy crisis if we don't get our grid both stirred up storm february 2021 i live north of galveston start the louisiana line go down to texas gold coast one third of the texas gold coast. we are huge on energy our grid needs to be both stirred up that means responsible dependable reliable energy something we can put online that quick texas for those of you who don't know this is more than he bargained for texas is

number one wind energy state in the country, 20% of our grid comes from wind energy we are number one in solar panel, five percent of her energy comes from solar panels. but we found out in which a star rate they don't always perform. >> so we also found out that solar panels get covered up and don't produce. hearing all the talk about ai we have got to be moving along with energy because to put an energy plant on the ground takes 34 or more years were trying to streamline the permitting process to take care of it to give you a little bit of an overview. >> what do you think the cuts to staff that doge is making. >> you have somebody looking at

the federal loaded government agencies to make sure we only have the people that we need. .. >> i vote for you all every day. i have people come in the office and say, we would put a facility, whether it's nuclear or something, on the ground and we'd make it, build, it, it could be 6 billion, 8 billion, build in two and a half to three years. but the permitting process takes six, seven years sometimes. >> do you trust doge, people getting rid of the bloat or heads on the wall? >> i would say they're going through a fine-tooth comb, this

agency ought to run meaner and leaner, no reason to get six years to get a permit done. no reason. >> are you part of the committee with overseas doge. >> i really don't. >> are you planning to bring them in for oversight hearing to make sure they're doing it right? >> i think the presidents do that. and some people say that elon musk is an unelected president, but every president in history has the right to have his or her own advisors, right? people griping about that, but look the president has got his own advicers. i know when george w. bush, texas governor, when he had advisors, one of them was laura bush, his wife. so they have the right to have advisors. >> let's say 2028 comes along and we see a big swing in the electorate and we get president aoc decides to hire mark cuban to go through the government look for anything--

first they declare a climate emergency and say look for thinking at that might tie the u.s. to stranded fossil fuel assets, the environmentalist, do you think that doge gives them a pathway to do that? >> there's an old saying, to the victory goes the spoils. so, you know, under the democrats get in power, that's what we choose to do, if that's what they choose to do. >> okay, i talked to an oil lobbyist during the first trump administration who mentioned-- he had a drink and-- ments he had a what. >> he had a drink when he was saying this, the trump administration-- >> he didn't offer me a drink when i came in, just so you know an order? no, they were in favor of trump's trade policies, but trump's trade policies is a dagger in the heart of his energy policies. what do you think? >> i don't think -- he will threaten countries, we've seen this movie before, and you've

watched a lot of the countries turn around and get in line with -- there's no reason why their trade policies should super impose over our trade policies because they're taking advantage of the american economic systems and-- >> not just them, but more of them. you saw canada and mexico where president trump was talking about tariffs, what did they do? well, they started singing a different tune, so, listen, he's watching that. i think you're going to see them-- i know this is energy, but that goes for n.a.t.o. overseas and the european union. he's doing that on multiple fronts. so trump last night i think said he wanted to support keystone xl, a type of big pipeline project out of canada. if you were going to talk to the company behind keystone xl, yeah, we want you to do it, but put a 25% tariff on your oil and then might be tariffs on your steel as well? >> well, i'm going to back up in front of that. the keystone pipeline would have come into my districts, 830,000 barrels of oil a day

you know, it came from canada and cushing, oklahoma, port arthur, texas the only gulf coast. when you're moving that product, 830,000 barrels of product a day and he why, yes, we have a lot of energy, but he can produce more and people say well, we have an energy glut? no, we don't, we should be makings as much as we can. 60% of the spr is in my district, district, and president trump -- president biden almost depleted the spr and people say we don't like pipelines, they're dangerous, blow up. you want to talk about how many 18-wheelers it takes to move 830,000 barrels of oil a day, takes about 5300. who wants 5,300 18-wheelers, diesel trucks, tankers on the

highway every day. get the keystone pipeline in place. whether or not the president wants to charge tariffs to canada, that's negotiated deal by deal. >> in the tariffs? >> i've never been in the tariffs business, but the oil industry long time is we want stability. in that case, you'd ask them, you might get a waiver from tariffs, you might not. >> that would mean, that commitment would be made upfront before we go to the project. i want to go back to something earlier than that, president obama was in office, 2008, 2012, and i was in house before i got demoted to congress. and oil way back then. president obama, i talked to him and met him. to his credit he came to the republican conference and spoke to us and talked specifically in his second term, i got elected 2012. and we'd like to get that project approved.

he said they were working on it and denied it and then president trump comes in and reinstates it. maybe we ought to have a law that says if this president says this permit is approved, did i mention some of these projects make four, five, six, seven years or more, then the succeeding president can't revoke that permit. >> with taking off shore acres off the table for oil? >> that's exactly rightment and here is the thing, federal law shore permits, drilling permits, off shore federal, and permits on land, federal permits off shore and on land if you combine them together what biden put a pause on and obama did, too in some respects. put them together in 2019 i think was the year, it produced online federal permits and off shore produced enough energy, if it was the country the ninth largest country in the world, that's how much energy is on land and off shore.

>> getting back to international energy, we saw president trump in his latest term, first kind of international action with the colombian president and-- >> the latest term, you're saying this term. >> sure the colombia president went and canceled a joint venture between occidental petroleum, they're in houston, i don't think they're in your district, and the state run oil company of colombia. are you hearing from companies, this back and forth and upheaval in international relations is hurting our business? >> we're not hearing that. this process about that. when the president goes there and starts flexing american muscles because that's what it is, united states is the largest, i should say strongest country in the world, best in my opinion. when he starts making moves to get other countries to fall in line, some of you all remember, you might not, how many of you remember the name e.f. hutton, the tv commercials, here is one

here. when they speak, people listen. when president trump speaks, people listen and so do the leaders. >> the canadian administer was in town, and trade minister is town. they're talking about the need to rerisk from the united states, the message they're go going back and forth. >> and lot of back and forth, when he makes the 51st state, we'll see if there's a problem. >> how many senators do they get. >> i guess two like everybody else. >> the other thing i was going to ask, we saw doge withholding payments for contracts that congress already approved in the previous congress. is it, you know, is there any worry that, now, congress proposes, doge disposes and are you guys just worried that anything you approve in a reconciliation package is only the first draft. >> that's a catchy phrase,

that's only a phase and we've got to get on with this so we can get on with it. did you all see what i did there? and they'll examine a piece by piece, blanket statement, you shouldn't have done this or do that. we'll see what they'll do with reconciliation, we'll start having votes quick here. >> if doge comes in, congress approved x number for data centers, we want to be the ones to put out those contracts. we want to make sure that the counter party is safe? >> i don't think they'll have that kind of authority. >> okay. >> they're going to depend on congress to move forward with this reconciliation. >> okay. and when it comes to data centers, i mean, are you thinking it's going to be a big deal for texas, electricity, demand. how do you think the market's a little frothy right now? i know the talk is we'll need more for ai, but we're seeing,

i think microsoft saying they were going to cancel a bunch of leases for data centers because they're worried. what's your forecast on how much this is actually going to become a big thing? >> i just instructed you all's staff and we still work for you, and i instructed the staff yesterday, look, i don't know about all the data centers coming in, i don't know how many there are, i don't know what the power requirements are, and depends, six to nine grids across the united states of america, as you all know, texas, and most of the liability council of texas when i was in texas, environmentalal regulatory, over the energy commission. at some point we've got to decide how much power is needed for these data centers, number one, and number two, it has to be in incumbent upon the company that's coming in to make sure that they can get the energy they need. if they can't then we don't

want them crashing those different grids and we've got to decide that upfront. we've got to get in business, progress and get some more energy in this country. >> is there any talk about integrating the texas electric grid with the other states? >> do we have any texans in the room? we've got four or five that will admit it. >> i lived this for six years. in texas we have a bumper sticker, a slogan, don't mess with texas, you all have seen that, right? we're not wanting to get our grid tied in with the federal grid. >> are you doing any town halls or going to do any. >> i've been so busy, i haven't done a town hall. >> pete sessions got an earful. >> it does happen. >> are you hearing from constituents-- >> let me give an anecdote at the last town hall. a guy in the back was heckling

me. if you were st. peter, i wouldn't vote for you i looked at him and i said if i was st. peter, you wouldn't be in my district. some of you all will get that later. >> the dallas-- the board of, the fed board in dallas said if tariffs go through with canada and mexico, it was affect 30% growth in texas. texas is in the highway of a tariff fight. are you in communication with the white house about what-- >> some of our colleagues are. our number one trading partner in texas is mexico, and second is canada. and they were looking at a highway brownville all the way through texas, of course, we could make a law what it would do from then on, but it was to do with just exactly that move, trade. how that's going to affect that trade, i don't know, but i do know this, texas number one

trading partner is mexico, number two a canada. i'll give governor abbott a shoutout. annen many occasions if it was a problem for texas he would be singing out loud or gone to the president directly. >> you haven't talked to the white house about what it would do to your state? >> no, i don't feel the need and governor abbott came and met with the republican delegation in-- on capitol hill, was it week before last, i've been out of the country for a week so week before last. >> what were you doing? >> israel, we went to israel. >> recently the energy department, energy national labs said they felt the impact of funding freeze, tens of millions of dollars, you wrote a letter, right, you asked a lot of other colleagues seemed to be fine with that. what was your thinking of stepping up for the national lab. >> there are 17 national labs in the united states of course, i'm on science base and technology committee so we want

to make sure that that kind of funding is in place that's our prosperity going forward and i don't know how many of you have been to the national labs, but they do a really good job and they're really, really necessary on science base and technology committee, for example, we deal with them a lot. we have that purview and so we play close attention to it and we want that kind of innovation coming. >> at one time the president says he wants more energy production and slash prices in half. that sounds good for for the companies in your districts, what do they think about that. >> i haven't had much input. they're going to watch and see, how long it takes and what exactly that means for their bottom line, how much energy they can ramp up, economy of savings, the more energy you produce the cheaper you can produce it, we'll see. >> tha [inaudible conversations]

>> good morning. my name is matt daley, i'm the editor for political pros energy services i'm joined by senator hickenlooper. thank you for joining us. >> thank you, matt, glad to be here. >> not much going on up at the hill here, but take a little bit of your time and get you back to work. so, first of all, i wanted to ask you, the big story in washington, of course, is the elon musk doge action. sort of work force is pretty traumatized by every account we're hearing. what is your take on how this activity is affecting the federal government? >> from an energy perspective or just personal energy? >> we can go broad and then go back to energy. >> no, no, i'm just kidding. when i first got into politics i had a bunch of restaurants in denver. i got frustrated by the city council and the mayor making decisions to get reelected. i ran for mayor on the small

business platform we can make government smaller and more efficient without traumatizing. and so, i didn't really want to win in the beginning, but i ended up mayor of denver in 2003 and we went about trying to find every way we could to make the city government smaller and to do more for the people. we didn't have layoffs, this is actually the dot-com bubble had burst. our sales tax was way down and did a hiring freeze for a couple of years and reexamined each agency and spent a huge amount of time maintaining morale, me, the mayor, the staff going into different parts of city government and making sure as people dealt with for about a year, we had every other friday you'd get off at noon unpaid. which if you're having trouble making your monthly rent at the end of the month, that's not good, but we told people how important it was at work and we

were able to-- my years as mayor, we didn't make it smaller, but we dramatically restrained the growth of the city government and we did all the new programs the. >> i think that's what people wanted. we knew that the government should be smaller, just like any business if it's restrained, bureaucracy will naturally grow and that's a natural tendency, coming in, and i think just helter skelter, using an ax on people's lives is traumatic for everyone, even the people that haven't been dismissed feel the pain and the trauma around there and it doesn't appear that there's enough effort going in trying to make sure that people understand that civil service is an honor. we've spent a lot of time making sure that people understood that they were delivering something that people needed. >> that appears to really-- i mean, the traumaticization appears to be not a future of this operation, and omb that

that was a goal to make it unpleasant. >> i understand they want chaos and they want so much going on so fast and a lot of that, some form of emotional chaos, terror, almost. again, there's two different ways of doing things and that wouldn't be the one that i've seen to be more effective. i think it's better to work within that bureaucracy and get everybody on the same page. money matters. i was raised by a single mom who grew up in the depressionment see never bought a dress, she sewed everything and washed tin foil and taped it to the refrigerator door. the absence of that frugality p-- people off and rightfully so. and when you look at your own state that has a lot of federal land and federal operations, is

there anything there-- are you seeing effects now from what's happening in washington or aspects you're worried about may be affected? >> no, no, this is-- my mother, that eagain, she was widowed twice before she turned 40, i was the youngest of four kids. kids have different versions. she'd say no nonsense, just what we experienced from each of us, no nonsense. and around colorado and around the country, no nonsense. they laid off people a bunch of people, scientists in fort collins, working on vector diseases, think lyme disease, and all of a sudden shut down, they're gone. will they get hired back? who knows? those interruptions of the hard work of scientific, you know, exploration really is what they're doing, trying to find solutions for a disease that's been, you know, hurting people

for years. we had a large federal government component of the irs in colorado and you know, hundreds of people lost their jobs. that affects everyone around them and you wonder how we're going to collect all the rent owed to the united states, all of our tax revenues. i can go down the list one after another of places where we have examples in colorado of places where government is now not delivering. i mean, services to veteransment so many of the layoffs are the last people hired are the first to get laid off. there's been an emphasis for seven or eight years to hire veterans when they come out, people that risk our lives defending our country, shouldn't they get the first federal jobs, suddenly we're laying off hundreds and hundreds, thousands of veterans. that's, i don't think, what america wants. >> in your committee's purview, you've got the energy department, which is now run by your friend chris wright, the

energy secretary who you introduced to his confirmation hearing. are you concerned about what the doge cuts might do at the energy department? we saw a stutter step with pretty big area of the energy department. >> the nuclear safety. [laughter]. >> that's one. >> yeah, really when you're going to do mass layoffs you're better served to have more time. that was not chris wright's fault. had a happened before, as he was being confirmed. when you have massive layoffs you want to make sure you're not laying off the people doing the essential work. you know, i flew back from denver to d.c. last tuesday, a week ago, and was on the plane with a guy who worked for the department of agriculture for 34 years and he was the one who told me that he just laid off 21 people and four or five are them were working the ames laboratory in ames, iowa on avian flu and looking at the assessments, different strains, getting into cattle and getting into people. that has really-time, has the

potential to be a real pandemic and suddenly we've stopped our work on it. that stuff is frustrating at every level, but those critical things like avian flu, nuclear safety. when we laid off all the people in large of our nuclear safety program, i mean, no nonsense, that's a problem. >> absolutely. when you look at the way that shifting over more to the hill activity now, the republicans are engaged in setting their budget priorities now and then they'll be moving on to reconciliation, a big beautiful bill or perhaps two. we'll see what the day brings. this is a landmark achievement under joe biden, the inflation reduction act and elements of the bipartisan infrastructure law as well. what can democrats do to influence or to hold back on

republican efforts to undermine that spending? >> well, i think to a certain extent, as we get more transparency and make people all across the country understanding what those cuts are going to mean to them, it's a little known fact or it's known, but it's not widely recognized that you know, 65 or 70% of the inflation reduction act investments in renewable energies, in tax incentives happened in red states. this freezing of wind permits on shore and off shore, most of those wind permits on shore are rural counties across america for farmers and for the county governments, those revenues are like a miracle. in many cases especially where water has been an issue and agriculture is not going as well as it used to, we have parts of colorado like that. the revenues from wind energy are a godsend. well, i mean, the notion that we're in an emergency that we're now in an energy emergency and we've got to do

all of these -- cut back everything and stop doing this and that. the last two years we have produced record, records of oil and gas. we are the largest oil and gas producer in the history of the world and if you look at all of our energy, we're not as large as china, but only one third of the population, so, on a scale, we are by far the largest producer of energy in the history of the world, on a per capita level. that those things, freezing so much of the inflation reduction act is, it's like cutting off your nose to spite your face, the old saying was, that you're throwing out the baby with the bath water and really, i think in many of these red counties, as people find out what that's going to mean to tear county, their neighbors, they're going to push back and say, hey, wait, let's rethink this, that these investments actually benefit us. >> and we were seeing some footage from a lot of members were home over the weekend and they had town halls. voters seem to be a little

distressed about the doge cuts that are going on and some of the things that be happening in washington right now. a lot of these investments, be it manufacturing or be it clean energy installations themselves may be a little below the radar, even former president biden said maybe they didn't do as good a job public sizing this rollout as they could have. do you think those investments are going to-- people are going to start to see them or notice when they're gone? will there be a ground swell to support those and get back to those republican members about this impact? >> i think there's going to be a ground swell that's going to connect many of these cuts and i think the energy related ones are going to be a big part of that, especially in rural areas, but really all across the country, but it's going to be coupled with the cuts in veterans programs, in housing, in the nutrition, the food and nutrition, the snap programs. you look, i mean, if these cuts continue and suddenly farmers aren't going to be able to get

crop insurance, right, for their crops, that's going to cripple small farmers, way more than the big guys, it's going to cripple them and make them vulnerable to one bad year and they're out of business and they lose their farm and i guarantee you, that will get connect today all of these other cuts and there will be a lot of people showing up at their republican house member saying, how can you support this? why are we going along with this? let's get realistic. let's cut the nonsense and look at, you know, what do we really want to cut? what are our really benefits and what are the things that, you know, make a good story in the newspaper aren't really helping each and every community. and they're protesting and saying my community. >> the dynamics have changed through congress. and you've tried to carve out a role as a moderate deal maker much like your friend joe manchin did in the senate.

what do you -- where are some areas that you think you and your republican colleagues can find agreement then, get legislation moving? >> sure, and i've -- you know, when i first got into politics back in, you know, 20 years ago, 22 years ago, as a mayor and then as a governor, what attracted me was the opportunity to get something done, to not get so involved in the politics and really look at where is the compromise, the alignment of self-interest so that we can get to the compromise and move forward and improve things for our common future. and joe manchin was, i think, very successful at hearing both sides and i try to be more of a listener than a talker. you know, i've never persuaded anybody to change their mind about anything that mattered to them, why i'm right and they're wrong, and you repeat back to them their same words. some people told me that's like

marital therapy, but you say, that soup was dropped right on your lap. oh, no, it very hot. repeating back people's words, listening to them, making them feel heard is a very real way to go and find common ground, republicans and democrats. in answer to your question, i think permitting reform. i mean, i think we right now recognize we don't have the grid to move electricity from where we make it to where we need it and it's going to take time, the notion that we're going to have to spend seven to 11 years every time we want to build a transmission line. whether you're an environmentalist or whether you're from the large utility or energy industry, any part of it, all of us have an alignment of self-interest to accelerate that and make sure, again, we are the most environmentally sensitive or one of the most environmentally sensitive countries on earth and our standards for both extraction

of minerals, but also the processing of minerals are going to be the cleanest, and set international standards. so, whether it's building out the grid or finding ways to look at the critical minerals, again, if you really want to address climate change, we need to get the minerals, it's not just the rare earth minerals, but it's things like copper and nickel. and we're going to have to look at mines all over the world and we're going to have to recognize that we're going to have to raise the standards by which those minerals are extracted and processed and try to do more in this country with our allies and making sure we maintain the relationships with our allies so we can have a level of trust that we'll get those minerals when we need them. that's how we're going to address climate changement at the same time keeping energy costs as low as possible. again, one of the things chris wright talks about all the time, there's one billion of us that have this abundance of

inexpensive energy, but there's seven billion people out there that would like to have that. two billion don't have anything at all. they're burning open hearth stoves for heating housing, and two million people a year die directly from the pulmonary diseases that come from the open hearth burning and that should be unacceptable to all of us. we need to look at as we transition to a cleaner energy future, that's going to include, who knows whether that's just wind and solar and geothermal and hydro power or carbon capture or nuclear. we recognize we need more energy. the rest of the world needs energy as well. we've got to have all of the above and continue to push the research, but also use the incentives to scale the production and, you know, whether it's grid or whether

it's getting these critical minerals out. all of these things should be bipartisan. so, anyway, that's a critical minerals, the grid, the-- getting a business plan. republicans, we should all want to have a north star. here is where we're going and what it's going to cost and the variations and get that on a bipartisan level. >> let mae play devil's advocate here, you may be able to get over the hurdle, a big if with republicans and coming up with say a permitting deal. >> i think we're closer than you think. >> great, we'll be talking to you later about that. but when you look at the idea you may get something passed with your colleagues on the hill, but the administration itself seems to be both-- it seems to send such mixed signals and its willingness to really not follow the law in many cases, not follow court

rulings, has to raise some questions about, you know, what is congress doing to really implement its will as the branch of government over an executive that's seeking a lot more power to do, really, what it wants to do? >> well, i think that congress is and has to obey the laws and make sure that the executive branch of department of the obeys the laws and the power of the purse is the most obvious place. congress in the constitution designated as-- as the soul source of, actually where revenues come from and how they're to be spent and at times, the white house appears to disregard that. congress is going to, i don't know how many thousands of lawyers are working right now in washington, but it's a lot and just for the record, i'm not a lawyer. 14 restaurants, i never sued anyone or got sued. we do have to have the legal remedy and make sure that the law is followed and i think that congress will continue to do that, but i believe that i

take the trump administration that they want economic growth. it obviously slowed down a little bit right now and they're going to be looking, i think, at ways that they can stimulate growth and one way is through these-- the alignment of some of these compromises and how do you get the grid rebuilt and expanded in a way that he is going to meet the transmission needs that we're going to have and how do we make sure that we get the minerals we're going to need and we are going to do some of that extraction and processing in this country and set standards for the rest of the world while at the same time maintaining our 0 reputation as an environmental leader around the country. so, these kinds of things are going to serve, i think, what the administration wants to do, so, whereas they sometimes are unpredictable. i think that's fair to say, in many situations, i think around some of these bipartisan approaches to our energy system, i don't--

i'm hopeful that we don't have any surprises. >> when you look at permitting specifically. at the end of last year, it seemed like you were pretty close, to the group-- a handful of members participating in the talks was pretty close and sort of on the same page, but you couldn't get the republican leadership in the house to throw its weight behind it. do you get a sense that's changed now? the republican leadership in the house seems to have plenty on its plate right now. [laughter] >> well, they do have plenty on their plate. no question. i think in the next couple of weeks we're not going to get a lot on permit reform. you're right, we're very close and the final drafts had elements that made me and most democrats unhappy and awkward and they weren't perfect, but in a good legislation, my experience is, as long as everybody's a little p'd off

you're making progress. and places where we had contention, are resolvable, it's going to take time and conversation both in the senate and the house, but it's so close and it has so much material benefit to people's home districts, but also to the country and that gives me, again, i feel very optimistic. sometimes when there's this much chaos it's hard to get optimistic. if you're not optimistic you're never going to get what needs to be done. i keep telling people back in colorado when they get, let's just say not depressed, but they get dismayed, disenheartened, disenchanted by the chaos in washington, this is not the time to back away and throw up your hands, it's time to redouble your efforts and i'm going to get involved. we need the compromises and work on things that are bipartisan way. >> do you think that the republicans are going to bend a little towards democratic

requests on the grid to make a stronger national grid to increase those interconnections between states and regions? >> i would be a pretty poor joe manchin if i was going to say that republicans are going to bend to what -- no, i think we need to bend and they need to bend, we all need to work towards a common goal and i don't see us, you know, making -- getting them to make any compromises without us making compromises as well. it's got to be a two-headed effort to make sure that we do things in a way that really can be bipartisan. each congress person has got to go back to their district in all of this chaos and explain each specific vote. i mean, it's going to a real period of transparency and i think this is kind of a vote that people can go home to their districts and say, this is a tough vote and here is the parts you're not going to like and the parts you're going to like, but we're moving the ball down the field. >> great.

okay. well, thank you very much for your joining us here today. that's all the time we have. thank you, senator for your time and insight and for our