there is live coverage on c-span 3. >> it will be the final time testifying on the high risk list as he is set to retire later. i want to thank you for your decades of service to the united states. under your leadership they have done excellent work to expose waste. the g.a.o. publishes a high risk list of ones refer. the 38 presents a financial risk

of loss at least $1 billion taxpayer or public health or safety delivery of essential services to americans, national security, privacy, economic growth or rights of citizens. these potential billions of dollars could be better use the for lowering taxes, i will proving roads or -- improving roads or making live better for people. the average american works too hard to have taxes wasted. i want to make sure they are being spent wisely and get more back to americans. this list helps track the progress of deficient cyst -- deficiencies to make better use of taxpayer money. they must be true to the purpose and remain stewards of taxpayer

dollars but year after year bloated programs managed by the bureaucracy continue to fall short of goals and are plagued. there continues to be waste and abuse. for more than 30 years g.a.o. has provided members with this report yet familiar programs remain which were there at the beginning. americans are tired of the federal government failing its report card. the people elected president trump to drain the swamp and rein in the bureaucracy and he has delivered. he has tasked doge with having an audit to eliminate wash waste. doge has a strong starting point. doge has taken note of the work

in identifying trillions of dollars by payments like medicaid and unemployment insurance and taking action to address the root causes of up proper payments. dosage dosage has recognized the report to modernize i.t. for a more efficient and elon musk and his a team are working on to make that hope. secretaries hegseth will work with doge to address this. g.a.o.'s work shows we need more data, tracking funds and efficiency to know where taxpayer dollars are going. we are excited to work with the trump administration to continue our vision of cutting waste, fraud and abusement i look from hearing on the good work g.a.o.

is doing and how we can protect the american people's money by being wasted. they want more than another report telling them about the problems in washington. they want action to right the ship. that is what president trump and doge and the republicans are doing for the american people. with that, i yield to the ranking member for his opening statement. >> i welcome. this is one of my favorite hearings in the calendar year. it is very important that you really want to get at waste, fraud and abuse and achieve efficiency which is ability to maximize good outcome and minimizes time, energy, money, the high risk of g.a.o. is a great place. we have will serious savings.

in information technology modernization which i focused on 16 years i have been on this committee we have saved $31 billion. so, when we talk about efficiency and trying to achieve results for the american people, you don't do it by taking a wrecking ball to the entire structure and hope you get the bad with the good. you take out a scalpel and do it in a thoughtful american. unlike what the carolina said i don't believe president trump and elon musk have done that at all. they have done mass firings, mass resignations and attempted resignations it fire everyone in a probationary status doesn't depicts the goods from the bad but treats everyone the same and

help for the best. we need to have talent for the future. the approach of doge so far and elon musk in particular actually is injurious to the future coarse of skill needed. we have to replace a number of workers in the federal government and they are going to retire and are eligible. unfortunately the approach of this administration so far led by mr. musk and doge doesn't do that at all. so i'm looking forward it talking about other opportunities like improper payments which this committee talked about for years. i believe they add up to something like 281 billion a year. if we multiply that times 10 that is almost $3 trillion we could reduce the debts if we are

serious. we look at revenue of money owed i.r.s. but inability to collect it is over a trillion a year. if we took that high number and multiplied by 10 that is $10 trillion. that is a third of the national debt almost. so there are things we can do. another within -- one is legacy systems. i outlined the top 10 that would save over $331 million a year. the oldest is 51 years old. so, we can do productive things and find common grounds but we on this side of the aisle will never support a mindless

wrecking ball to achieving efficiency in the federal government. that's not how to do it. it will wreak harm to the american people, damage our form of government and will never ne merit our support. >> i'm pleased to welcome the witness gene dadaro who brings more than 50 years and served as ahead of the legislative branch sense 2010. he serves the final year of his 15-year term. he has testified before congress 220 times to improve the performance and operation of the government leading the work that led to over $1 trillion benefits during his tenure. he was influential in developing the content of the high risk list which has had benefits of about $40 billion.

i look forward to our discussion this afternoon. pursuant to committee rule 9g the witness and his staff will rise and raise your right hand. [the witnesses were sworn in.] let the record show the witnessesanced in the affirmative. we appreciate you being here and i want to remind the members of the committee when comptroller general testifies he has a staff and sometimes he will yield to his staff to answer certain questions. that is why they were all sworn in. i will remind the witnesses we read the statement and it will appear in full. please limit your oral statement to five minutes and please press the button on the microphone so members can hear you. the light will turn green then four minutes it will turn yellow then when it is red it will be

expired. i recognize you for your opening statement. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. it is very good to be here to talk about g.a.o. work on fraud, abuse and mismanagement and transformation needed for a number of programs to achieve greater efficiency. there's been good progress since the last update. we have saved over $760 billion over time through implementation of recommendations that have been acted on by the congress and administration on the high risk areas. i want to focus on a couple of things today. we are adding one new area a that is improving the delivery of disaster assistance. storms are becoming more frequent and intense. the last 10 years $500 billion were appropriated for disaster

assistance. fema is stretched too then. terror -- they are managing over relieve disasters some back 20 years. the system is fragmented. there are over 30 different agencies involved. there is confusion, overlapping regulation. we need reform in that area. that is why we are highlighting it. there's also opportunities to better manage the cost of the federal government. as has been mentioned by the chair and ranking improper payments is an intrackable problem. the last six years it is over $150 million. that is not the complete number. there are a number of programs that are not even reporting. there's $600 billion net tax gap 2010 taxes owed and collected. voluntary compliance is 82% to

85%. we can do better to make sure government gets its fair share of revenue. there are many major acquisitions in the government including d.o.d. webbing systems on the high list of the department of energy, contracting for nuclear development and clean-up of our weapons complex. these contracts are consistently overrun, over budget and delays occur and don't deliver on the promises. information technology remains a government wide problem. it is designated a government wide list. acquisitions and operations. government spends over $100 billion a year most to maintain existing legacy systems and not the new technology so the government is not harvesting the power. f.a.a. to give a couple of examples has 139 air traffic control systems, 31% of those

systems are not sustainable by f.a.a.'s own amountsment there's not enough spare parts, not enough money and their plans to develop many of these systems are not intended to resolve the problem for 10 or 15 years. we have the va electronic healthcare system on their tournament -- fourth try. we have only deployed the system to four medical centers and another five in the next year but there are 116 more to go. cybersecuriiment -- cybersecurity i designated that still a problem and it has grown in intensity and the government is not acting at a x-rays commensurate -- a pace commence rate with the threat not just to the federal government but the critical infrastructure,

electricity grids, water systems, telecommunications network. all across the 16 critical infrastructure sections. there are many other areas on the list that deal with public health and safety, oversight of medical products, drug shortages, not enough inspections of drug manufacturers and food safety, bureau of prisons is in significant disrepair and understaffed. i can go two many of these areas during the discussion. but, the main message here is that action to these issues could save billions of dollars, improve public health and safety and go to the heart of improving the service and effectiveness and efficiency and return on investment and build better trust in our government

institutions. i thank you for the opportunity to be here and with enjoy entertaining your questions. >> thank you. i recognize dr. gosar from arizona >> thank you. i look to this hearing to talk to you. you have always been good to us. thanks for doing that. if i had to highlight one department of the efficiency accomplishes improving the waste, fraud and abuse is not isolated to win part. it is government wide. since the last record 2023 not a single item has been remastered. the biden administration camp dated every agency. this high risk list has improper medicaid and extravagant d.o.d. acquisitions. for three years since the coronavirus provided a map for

states to enroll beneficiaries regardless of eligibility or private insurance. according to kaiser foundation enrollment in medicaid and clip grew by $32.1 million. once again d.o.d. failed the seventh consecutive audit. perhaps you should them to go to ukraine. the high risk list mentions the infrastructure of the bureau of prisons. they are planning to coast seven facilities in three satellite camps due to budget constraints. the question nor you allowing ice to use these facilities as detention centers creed additional review and use excess federal property and improv the

infrastructure? >> we haven't taken a look at that issue yet. i believe so what your concerns are. i don't know -- well be taking a look and see how ice is using those facilities and whether that, what effect that is having both positive and negative but i'm deeply concerned about the state of the -- prisons. they are understaffed and excessive use of overtime and that can lead it safety concerns for staff and incarcerated individuals. despite the first accept act they have not focused on evaluating programs that are intended to help people transition back in society and not prevent recidivism from kurkjian and they ending back in prison shortly after they are released. i don't know to what extent ice using the facilities will

tkphreu indicate or potentially -- complicate or have other effects but we will look at it. >> to follow up you regard the transfer could you tell how you would transfer that property? >> i'm not sure, i would have to look at ownership who owns the prisons. >> the report flags that the f.d.a. must do a better job to protect health and temporary use or unapproved medical trials like vaccines in emergencies. in your investigation of this lange of f.d.a. oversight did you uncover why the f.d.a. approved emergency use of covid but not for treatment of covid? >> let me ask my expert in that area. he is managing director of our healthcare work.

>> we have not looked into the use of ways for that or vaccines. we have not been asked to do that by congress. >> one thing we have to look at is improve f.d.a. there is trouble all around. i think both sides would agree on that. the report recommended collection of tax pages for oil and gas it improve the fiscal position. could you agree funds generated from tell would help reduce the deficit? >> yes. >> so, revenues from oil an gas? >> no, our finding is it is already being produced and there's in assurance it is collecting the amount it is due. i'm not suggesting they produce more but for what is being produced the royalty payments

the interior department systems are in disarray and it is in the cheer they are correcting the revenue due to government. >> the chair recognizing the ranking member for five minutes. >> you have been doing high risk reports to there -- this committee for a long time. on the high risk list this year there are how many again? >> 38. >> how many has congress taken action on? >> there's quite a few. we took off -- >> quite a few is a little general. 19? 20? >> i would say probably 20 is a fair statement. over time. >> so, congress hasn't ignored the high risk list. >> no. >> but there are perennial favorites that come back. >> that's correct.

>> what are a couple of examples? >> there are charter members that -- >> could i ask you it speak closer to the mike -- microphone. >> d.o.d. weapons system, medicare has been on the list since 1990. medicaid joined in 2003 along with real property across government. as i mentioned earlier put cybersecurity on in 1997 and so toes are some of the ones that were early additions. and i want to be clear, there have been improvements but they are not to the point where risk is being managed properly and we are still having opportunities to do better. >> if we adopted all the recommendations g.a.o. put forth on the high risk list any idea what the savings could be to the united states taxpayer?

>> over $200 billion. >> a year is it >> total, but some of them will continue. >> ok. that is a very conservative estimate. >> it could be more. >> the savings from i.t. modernization is $31 billion and it is a gift that keeps on giving. are you familiar with the taxpayer the cbo vigue act? >> yes. >> would that make the federal government work better for american people if we adopted it >> yes. that was based on recommendations from a g.a. so. study where we stidhamed the impact of the c.f.o. act over 30 years of implementation and some suggestions to make it stronger. >> does that also address

improper payments and fraud? >> with some additional provisions added it could and should. and i'm happy to provide additional suggestions in that regard many >> could you talk about improper payments? refresh or memory we don't mean the government deliberately throws minute from the rooftop. >> no, that is not in the official statutory definition and i would not support that. the official definition is it is a payment that was, that shouldn't have been made or made in the wrong amount. some of them can be an general paymentment no however are overpayments many probably 90%. they happy when money is given to somebody who is really not intelligible to receive the benefit or the payment

calculation is incorrect. or somebody submits a bill for service that was effective provided. some of the improper payments could be fraud. fraud is broader. improper payments are only estimate of about 80 federal programs. they are a very small subset. they should be bigger but fraud occurs throughout the federal government so it can occur beyond improper payments. >> final point it seems part of the problem with improper payments there's in incentive or reward system in the federal workforce to reward you for catching improper payments and try to deflect them. the reward system is getting moan out the door appearnessably and providing benefits to needy citizens. could you comment on that quickly? >> that is exactly right. more people in the federal

agencies have gotten in trouble for not paying someone than paying someone at the shouldn't have paid. the incentives needs to be changed. many of these programs are administered through the states so they need to be incentives at the state and the labor department for example offered a suggestion that there be legislation to give states the ability to keep 5% or whatever at the recover of improper payments and use it strengthen their payment integrity process and i support that. >> i thank the chair many >> the chair regulars dr. fox from north carolina. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. thank you more dodaro. last year north carolina saw immensization by hurricane helene with over 100 lost. fema soda up but i give them an

overall grade of d plus. it is not surprise it quote improving the delivery of federal disaster assistance was added it high risk list that states attention is needed it improve processes for assisting survivors. i could not agree more. one of the biggest problems i recognized while helping constituents affect by strpls is had you fema's reserves on the ground are telling people what the agency can't do rather than what it can do. they have a lot of experience dealing with disasters yet it seems to have learn few lessons. these should be -- there should be an information road map be available it these affected by disasters including what they can expect. it should include how much and what time they can expect it receiver the information and what types of decisions will have it be made in the coming

weeks, months an years. what recommendations for fema to quote improve processes for assisting survivors? >> i will give a couple of examples and i will turn it chris curry the expert in the area and he can enumerate. we think fema gets involved in too many disasters. right now it is based on a better cap that amount of $1.86 per capita, hasn't been adjusted so they get involved in more disasters than if at the effectively evaluated the state and electrical ability to do it we estimate they could be not involved in about 27 fewer disasters which would help deal with it issue. i will turn to chris for other examples. >> yes, ma'am. the way you described it i could to the agree more. the problem is we have a system that was created it do good but

it is not helping the survivors that it is supposed to help. your description is right on. the problem is the survivor in the community has to general go a very complicated process over many agents and it is very confusing and survivors get worn down. in terms of or recommendation we have a number of options to simplify the system but also it reform how the federal government provides assistance to communities so they can get it quicker. >> i have a follow-up question i will send to you all because i'm in the going to have enough time for you to answer and i need to ask another question. we have work the very heard on postal service reform. we are concerned that the high risk list notes the postal service lost $16 billion in

fiscal years 2023 and 2024 and has $181 billion in debts appear liability. the postal service can to the continue operating as it has with its financials in such bad shape. what suggestions do you have for us to shore up the postal service so it can provide critical service especially in rural communities like the ones most of us represent? >> there's a basic expectation gap between congress and postal service. i think that gap has to be closed. congress wants certain delivery expectations set for the postal service but there's this way they are going to generate the revenue necessary in order to meet those expectations that congress has. so i think there has to be a negotiation between congress and the postal to say this is what

we want you to do. how much can you generate? they need to keep trying to reduce their cost. they have had some success but in the a lot. i think that is fair to ask tell to reduce their cost but at some point congress has it say this is what we want and this is what we are willing to contribute to pay to keep that level of service going. >> it is my understanding they have done not nearly enough to automate and reduce costs. do you have suggestions in that area? >> this is dave maroney. skwraorpbgs they have made initial steps but there's a lot that remains to be done. the network is antiquated. they are in the process of trying to transform it but there have been problems in that transformation in certain areas where it is implemented in atlanta ant richmond you have seen decline in service performance so it is important for them to focus on what are the lessons is as they continue

this transformation which is important it is rolled out as smoothly as possible so you get the gains an don't get the something hiccups that happen with the first two implementations. >> i want to tell up particularly on the post office. it affects every american and it is very critical to us many >> the chair recognizes ms. norton from washington, d.c. >> thank you, mr. chairman. for this year's high risk up date the government accountability office found that inadequate staffing and skills, skills gaps, contributed to more than half of the nation's highest rick challenges. why are federal workers such an important part of the equation

in tackling high risk areas? >> having the right numbers of staff with the rate skills is very essential. let's take srafrplgts healthcare on -- va on the ring for not providing timely healthcare. there's a real shortage of mental health providers. we have veterans that need suicide care. last i checked there were 17 veterans a day economying suicide. we need well qualified member health providers just in that area land. you need guards that are well qualified at the bureau of prisons. goods people managing our nuclear weapons complex, security experts, software engineers at d.o.d. i could go on and on. these areas -- an we have had strategic human capital across the federal government on the high risk since 2001. i'm i was concerned about the federal work force doesn't have

the proper skills that are needed to address many of these important areas that are providing critical services to the american people and at the heart of providing public safety. for example, there are not enough inspect doctors at f.d.a. it inspect foreign drug manufacturers. only 22% of the manufacturers. yet most of our drugs come from foreign manufacturers in china, indiana other countries and -- india r r and other countries. our foods supply 15% is imported but some categories like seafood over 80% and we don't have enough. toxic chemicals are in the being

inspected. these are reasons we have this issue on a lie of -- high risk list because they don't have tough people and enough skills it protect the american people. >> unfortunately those who talked about efficiency missed the memo when they began terrorizing the tpwoerbgsd -- federal workers that serve the american people. and let's not forget a third of these federal workers are veterans. instead of focusing efforts on retaining talented people to put their skills it work solving the challenges, elon musk offered an illegal scam buyout, two

millions of federal employees that will only make the government staffing challenges worse. last saturday he was at it again threatening on social media that all tpwoerbgsd would lose their jobs if they fail it reply to an e-mail and report what they did last week. is it a best management practice to throw around indiscriminate threats of mass firings regardless of job duties and mission needs? >> i would not consider it a best practice. but i do think i have spent most of my career butting heads with the bureaucracies across government. there's a need for change. but how you do it matters. and going about it in the way that is being done now can cause

some short-term problems for the government because it can create other vulnerabilities. the way that i have suggested in the past is the government figure out what functions it doesn't want to do any more then you can deal with the people in those functions or ones that don't have the skills that you need any more. but it should be done in a respectful way and done also in a way that does not hurt the federal government in the long term. we need people to -- whatever any administration decides to do with their policies an what at the want the government to do, at the end of the day at the need good people to do it. not enough young people are coming into the government with the skills needed going forward. so you have to be careful that you don't disincentivize people who want to give public service

because opinion service is important it -- it implementing any policy by any administration no matter what the policy is. i'm agnostic on the policies. but i have seen good policies that don't get implemented effectively because you don't have the right people. >> the lady's time has expired. >> thank you for your service. what a is he impressive report of good service in your unique individual to have been able to make it through so many significant changes in the executive branch appear in congress. so we thank you for your service and i mean that. i would like to dig into two areas. one will be the department of defense but before we get there

i would like to talk to you more about the united states postal service. you mentioned that congress should clearly identify to the united states postal service what we need, what we expect and i would ask you did we not do that in 1970 with the postal reorganization being a? when the postal service was reformed and redefined as an independent agency and allowed great autonomy and independence from congress, it was was essentially -- i'm simplifying but i request you to correct me. but was given great autonomy to set its own fees, the price of

stamps and establish its own financial conduct within the postal service. it was essentially set up as a government owned corporation. and part of that deal of the 1970 law required performance it deliver for american people and a net neutral fiscal performance or a break even fiscal performance. so i would say that the united states postal service has failed to comply with existing will you. but perhaps i'm oversimplifying that and i yield to the gentleman for his response. >> sure, absolutely. fundamentally, structurally, your description is sound. it was intended for the postal service to operate like a private entity.

until run into situations where, if you are a private entity this postal service facility we want it close it post office in this rural area -- >> will the gentleman yield to a question for his comments. there was nothing in the 1970 law that prohibited the manifestation of private competition. so any reasonable corporate structure would have pitted the manifestation of private competition. so, i would say that the post office was never insulated from impact of potential private competition nor are they at this time right now. why would we give them the autonomy of corporate structure without the responsibility to perform as within the reasonable guidelines of corporate structure including consideration for private

competition. i yield back. >> there are certain areas they have certain competition an certain areas they are a monopoly. first class mail an example of monopoly. all i'm saying is over time as they moved to exercise their autonomy this were certain things that congress backed at closing postal facilities was one. moving it five day delivery. packages on the six days. congress balked on. that is the type of thing we need it negotiate around those particular things that a private sector entity would do. but there's not an appetite for the type of changes that with occur. i will ask my expert. >> would you concur and it will be my final point and please answer. how would you assess the usps

performance regarding their mandate by law it break even for decades they have failed. >> they have an understandable business model which is why there needs to be a definition of what level service going forward as he was saying and how is it going to support it because right now they are not financially where they are supposed to be. >> first class mail is not coming back. that is their most profitable area. it is not coming back due to e mail and ear electronic changes. -- and ear electronic changes. amount they have not been able to cut costs fast enough. so absent some additional crow miss between congress on delivery and perhaps some contributions to them or different model for what they have. right now the model is not going to work and believe what happen

is that in five years or so their money that they have to pay retirement healthcare benefits will run out. >> it is unsustainable. my time has expired. i yield. >> the chair recognizes mr. lynch from massachusetts. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. dodaro good to see you at the tell me you have testified over 220 times. mr. conley and i have been hear for most of them. i want to say how grateful i am for your good work. i can say throughout your time you have been honest and fastidious with your reports and thorough. i would say that you have been strictly nonpartisan for your time and that has been helpful during some tough issues, just

the fact that you are a straight shooter has helped us with our work on our end. you have been a shining example of what a federal employee, a federal worker and a government taxpayer watch dog should be. so, i wish you well. i'm sorry that you are leaving because we need you now more than ever. i'm just hoping a little bit of gene gogh -- gogh darrow rub off on the people. i ask to submit for the record a report of the inspect for general of the veterans administration the determination of severe occupational staffing shortages at the va fiscal year 2024. skwraorbg without objection, so ordered. >> if you would, we had a report

filed by mike missile who was the inspector general for the va until he was tpaoeurltd by president trump -- fired by president trump about they weeks ago. he reported that the va health administration was caring for more than nine million veterans in 1400 facilities and was experiencing severe occupational staffing shortages of about 3,000 people, 2,959, with over 82% reporting severe shortages of medical officers and nurses. so, the nurses are like the marine corps of our health system especially at the va. they do it all. doctors take the credit but the nurses do the work. what did president trump do and

elon musk came in? came in and fired another 1,000. that is right when at the came in. which included healthcare workers, employees who process benefit claims, workers who staff the va suicide crisis line with record suicides among veterans. then just yesterday the president went back and fired an initial 400 so we are down 5,400 employees on va. this is something when used to agree on. can you offer an assessment on how these terminations will affect veterans? >> we are going to look at that because it is on the high risk area. it is not going to help. we already had then listed as shortages in those areas and they have difficulty retaining people. i'm very concern about mental health and suicide prevention. beer -- we're looking at the

crisis hairline. i will ask jess to add her views. she follows this carefully. but it is a reason to be concerned. >> congressman, as -- >> gene, you can be a little more forthcoming because you are retiring. if you want to have at it let me know what you think but i apologize. >> va has struggled making sure the veterans get timely access to healthcare is not having the right number of people with the right skill sets to treat them will affect a long standing issue in terms of timeliness of care as we reported in the past about hug veterans have waited for the people that schedule the points are essential to making sure they get the care in the va facilities and community. >> right now i ask the va how

much back log do you have on cases veterans coming in. what is the backlog of cases because it tax forever to get appointments and at the told me ted a backlog today of 250,000 cases at the va. they just laid off an initial 2,400. can you surmise what that will create? >> it will make an already bad situation likely worse. va handling disability issues is also on high risk. it has been there a long time. there was a point in time, i hope it is better now but did you went for an appeal it with take you up to seven years to get your appeal resolved. people would die before told get a decision on their disability claim. the act did increase the work led.

i haven't -- workload. we will look as part of our work but i know the situation was not good to begin with. >> thank you madam chair for your indulgence. >> i now recognize myself for five minutes. thank you for being with us today. i apologize for you having to bear witness it the tantrums that unfolded in this committee earlier. we have convened discuss something spending more time protesting an disrupting proceedings because we are talking about cutting waste, fraud and abuse in government miswants. for decades it was not a partisan issue. you know who championed cutting back an waste no other than president obama and joe biden. in 2011 obama signed executive order 13576 to create a

government accountability and transparency board. to root out waste, fraud and abuse in federal agencies. joe biden himself even admitted quote cutting waste, fraud and abuse is something washington has talked about for decades but now more than ever what the people need is action. but now the left has done a 180 claiming cutting is fascist saying it is a threat to democracy. they even say our nation's chief executive shouldn't be allowed to direct or control the executive branch or ask an unelected bureaucrat what they did. we just want it though what are the top tariff things did you. did you can't answer that you probably shouldn't be employed by federal government or company that would never hire you everyone their disruption has nothing to do with policy and everything to do with trump derangement syndrome and i fear

that their disruption is pathological. it is about their need to oppose anything tied it president trump. they would rather protect bloated democracy than admit that he was right. i will repeat they have trump derange wants syndrome and i fear this is terminal. now turning to an issue of greater importance to me as chair william of the cybersecurity, the 2025 high risk list highlights serious failures in federal cybersecurity and technology modernization as i'm sure you are aware. agencies espn billions on software without a commence or detailed understanding of what they are mr. chairmanning and how it compares to what they are already paying for. a lot of duch indication. g.a.o. reported without improvements to i.t. portfolio saying the federal government will likely continue to span resources and i.t. investments that do not meet the needs of

the government or public. what stems should agencies take right now to understand the software they are buying stead of throwing taxpayer there's at it helping for the best? >> i want to turn it carol harris our director and see can eitem rate for you. >> thank you for the question. a number of things that could be done. first of all with regard to i.t. management we have a major issue where we have $100 billion annually going to the i.t. budget across the federal government. 80% of that is going toward the same old system so we have to -- >> how old are some of them >> some are up to 50 years old. so they are old and they need to be >> what kind of technology where they coated with? let's with cobol.

-- >> with cobol. the government is having difficulty finding knowledgeable people to work on these programs because these computer languages are out of date. >> after i taught myself html in college because there were not college classes, i considered it a real programming language, but i learned cobol back in 1999. i worked on y2k stuff. i mean, that was almost 26 years ago, 27 years ago when i get that. the fact that we are still using it decades later. i only have 45 seconds left. what are some of the operational risks resulting from the last administration's failure to review and manage government i.t.? >> 20 take a look at those legacy systems, because we are continuing to manage them, there are cyber security vulnerabilities associated with those as well as staffing challenges as well as, you know, just increased costs associated

with maintaining these so the security vulnerabilities in maintaining these old systems are very real and we have to address them and we made multiple recommendations. we have 700 recommendations that are still open that need to be addressed immediately. >> thank you both for your time today. i will recognize mr. -- for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair. first, i wanted to comment on the earlier debate where the representative and representative greene said some of these cuts that you my mosque and doge are making are making -- elon musk and doge are making are good. they are federal workers being fired without cause and they are not the poor performers. i guess my question for the chair, and i know the chair is not here, is why not have elon musk come before this committee and make the case?

i mean, why not have representative correa and ask him to explain why she thinks the situation is good and have the confidence to explain that to the american public? we can ask him questions about where we think that he has violated the law. but i do not understand what the reluctance is to have mr. elon musk come here? if you are confident that what he is doing is in the american -- the interest of the american people, why not have him here? i hope that the chair will consider that request. i have great respect for you and i have great respect for your service. but with respect, this is not a time for caution in speaking out. your predecessor -- to court because gerald ford was not willing to comply with the impoundment act. this was not a decision that she

made -- moyers spoke out and i want to ask you whether what you think the president is doing in pausing these payments automatically is a violation of the impoundment act. >> yes, we are looking at that issue. we have already sent letters to the administration asking them to explain their legal position to us, and we will be making rulings as to whether or not these issues violated the act or not. >> when will you be making that? >> as soon as we can get the information from the administration. you're following the court case -- court cases as well and the court filings. >> what if they refuse to give you the information? >> we have the information available from the court filings of what their legal positions are for many of the issues that are subject to the litigation. >> would you say within 45 days? because that is the rescission

-- they have about 45 days. i think the automatic payments is a violation. >> you're going to make these decisions as fast as possible. i fully intend to carry out our responsibilities on any impoundment control act expeditiously and thoroughly. >> how about by may 1? >> i will check with my attorneys is what people always say. i will check. i will let you know. i am going to do it as quickly as you can. but i need -- we need to be careful and thorough because the next step for us is to go to court ourselves. under the impoundment control act, if we say that is in impoundment, the money is not released within a certain period of time, we have to go to court. >> are you prepared to do that? >> yes, yes, but i need to be prepared and be careful because when i go there, i want to win. all right? so we are going to do this as fast and as thoroughly as we

can. we have a good track record on this area. a good group of attorneys. and we are going to do a thorough job. >> can the american people be assured that if there are violations of the impoundment act in the automatic pause or in the cuts that you will make sure that you prosecute that or take it to court and are confident that you will prevail? >> i can be confident that i will take it to its full closure. i am not going to predict what the court is going to say. i know better than that. but they have their own independent decision-making. they are making some decisions right now on these very topics, but i know and i am confident i can give the american people assurance that we will carry out our responsibilities. >> that is all the constituents who are saying we are not doing enough, these things are getting paused, there are costs that are happening. you can assure them that you are moving as expeditiously and taking this as seriously that this is were top priority in

making sure that you are going to uphold the impoundment act and take aggressive action if it is violated? >> absolutely, absolutely. i have been talking about this as soon as things started to unfold. this is, you know, this is very important. there's a lot of factors that go into making these decisions. one is how specific congress was in the appropriation. a lot to begin with. we need to take that into account. this year, we are on a continuing resolution stage so we don't have a lot of specifics for this fiscal year. there are some causes for programmatic review. so there's a lot of details and a lot of legal considerations to sort through. but this is a high priority for us and we are going to execute our responsibilities. >> i appreciate it. >> i will recognize mr. biggs for five minutes. >> thank you so much.

it is good to see you again. welcome back. i have a question for you with regard to the impoundment act. let's say congress appropriates one dollar but the administration finds a way to do the same task that the dollar is supposed to go for for $.75. you don't think that they are violating the impound act if they don't spend the full dollar, do you? >> well, that's a hypothetical question. i would like to see the federal government spend one dollar on some ring. i don't think that that is going to happen. but the theory behind your question is that they spend everything that congress intended them to spend. and if they don't, there is nothing wrong with that. the act provides a remedy for the president to submit a rescission proposal to the congress and the congress has 45 days to approve it.

if they do not, they agree. >> the process can be cumbersome is the point. you can diminish the efficiency by doing a rescission act. but i don't want to take all the time for that. >> there is a process. >> in your written testimony and in your report, you say that the areas on the high-risk list include programs that represented about 80% of the total government wide reported improper payment estimate for fiscal year 2023. agencies and that apartment of the treasury are taking some steps to address this issue. much more needs to be done to control billions of dollars in overpayments and present fraud. for example, cms should improve the timeliness of audits to identify and recover improper payments. you also make clear that while congressional action may be necessary to eliminate issues and interagency coordination is needed, no progress has been made on improving medicaid program integrity since it was added in 2023. in 2023, gao designated the

unemployment insurance system as high risk because employment insurance is -- integrity challenges posed significant risks to service delivery and expose the system to significant financial losses. similarly, gao has designated medicare as a high-risk program due to its size, complexity, affect on the federal budget, and susceptibility to improper payments. further, the significant amount of medicaid improper payments is a reason gao included integrity on its 2023 high-risk list as well. in fiscal year 2023, the estimated amount of improper payments for medicaid reached approximately $50.3 billion. where is all that money going? >> it is going to the wrong places. it is not quite clear. the estimates here, you know, are made based upon sampling procedures so it is not an enumeration of all the payments. for those that are in the sample

where they make the payment, they try to recover the money. for other things, it is just an estimate statistically. >> you are basing it on statistical information. >> right. >> it is impossible for you to tell how much of that is due to fraud? >> have made recommendations. we did a fraud estimate. our fraud estimate from 2018 to 2022, the five-year period, we estimated annual losses to fraud to be between 233 billion dollars and 521 billion dollars so that period covered both before the pandemic and during the pandemic, which had, in my view, epic fraud during the pandemic. >> federal medicaid spending was over 575 billion dollars in fiscal year 2023 and is expected to increase over the next decade. what is needed to better manage the program? >> did he say medicaid or

medicare? >> medicaid. >> number one is you need to have better control over managed-care portion of medicaid. the estimates on improper payments for medicaid only really are based upon a fee-for-service portion which is less than half of the payments now and we have encouraged much more aggressive fashion, looking at the managed-care portion. they have increased the number of audits and they are starting to find more problems so that is number one. >> ok, so i got to move on. there is just too much here because you also noted that dod has major problems as well -- major problems as well. so i introduced, once again, the audit the pentagon act which aims to increase transparency and accountability in the defense budget and imposing financial consequences because have they ever had a clean bill

of health on an audit? >> not for the overall department. there are some components and i am very pleased, last two years, the marine corps has got an unmodified, clean opinion. the other services, not so much yet. i noted that secretary hegseth has made this a priority. i'm going to be communicating with him, meeting with him to say if you want to do this, here are the things i need to be done in order to achieve an unmodified opinion from the whole apartment. >> i'm sorry we are out of time. i would like to hear your remedies but i have to yield back. >> thank you. >> i will now recognize miss stansberry for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. thank you for your soon-to-be retirement. thank you for your service to our country.

i wanted to just take a couple of minutes to talk about what this hearing actually is, which is to talk about the high-risk list. i am a former -- we use the reports at olympia to implement change across the federal government so i am very acquainted with all the work of your staff. thank you for everything that you do. i want to disc clarify for folks who are watching at home, the government accountability office is a nonpartisan government agents the that is part of congress, part of the legislative branch, and your job is to audit, evaluate, investigate, and provide recommendations as a congressional watchdog both to congress and to the executive branch, correct? >> that is correct. >> what you do if that -- every year as part of your work is produced this high-risk list and this year, the one you're presenting to us today includes 38 areas that you have identified that as you just said in your testimony would save money, help ensure the health and safety of the american public and help to build trust in our federal agencies and i

want to flee talk about some of the things that appear on this list -- i want to briefly talk about some of the things that appear on this list. the first thing on here is the improvement of delivery of federal disaster assistance. that is fema. that can is improvements in surface transportation. we have hhs and public health services, department of the bureau of contracting and business practices, improving small business administration, resolving federal housing, finance issues through hud, epa issues around environmental liability. there is national nuclear security on here, enforcing tax laws including the irs, improving certain fda and doi programs, improving v.a. service, cms programs, and also the regulation of the financial regulatory system, and all of

these things are really about the transformation of how the federal government provides services, and i heard you just say to mr. lynch as well as to mr. -- that with respect to some of the specific programs that were asked about that the indiscriminate elimination of funding and staffing for these programs would not only fail to actually resolve the issues that you guys have identified about potentially make them worse. is that correct? >> that is a possibility. >> yes. so obviously, there's been a lot of conversation today in this committee about the actions that are being taken pursuant to doge by elon musk and this indiscriminate funding freeze that is happening, the dismantling of these programs, the hacking of federal data, and the mass firings, we know that there's more that are planned for this week. but unfortunately, we don't exactly know what elon musk has actually been up to because he

won't come to this committee and in fact, our republican colleagues have shielded him from having to appear, but he did appear over the weekend at cpac, at their political action event that was held here in the washington area and you know, here he is. he was wielding a chainsaw with the argentinian leader and i will just say, you know, somebody who grew up working construction, i know what to do is who don't know what to do with the chainsaw look like but it's also obvious that these guys actually don't know how to manage a federal government and how to address high-risk areas where we actually do need to address issues of waste, fraud, and abuse. i know that not only are they not addressing these issues, they are diluting the federal government and breaking the law daily. and this recklessness has really severe consequences as was just outlined by some of the other commentary already but i want to note some of the human impacts. at my district, i was just home

this weekend and we heard from tribal college teachers who were fired, v.a. employees who are not able to help support the veterans that they work with. a colleague of mine who was told this week that his ptsd counseling would be canceled. tribal justice programs that pay for cops had their funding frozen. i mean, the reality is that this guy right here who is an unelected billionaire, is literally looting the federal government right now and he has no idea what he is doing. he is not even addressing the fundamental problems that have been identified by our nonpartisan watchdog so you know , i want to be clear also that the republicans as of today, we took a break right before this committee, went and voted on a rule to advance a tax package that would make these cuts permanent to pay for a permanent tax breaks for billionaires. so what these guys are up to is not about government efficiency. it's about looting the american

people and the treasury to pay for billionaire tax cuts. with that, i yield back. >> ok. i recognized mr. cloud for five minutes. >> thank you, chairwoman command thank you, commissioner, for being here. our country is $36 trillion in debt. the american people, if we were to ask them, and we have in the previous election, were to ask them if we thought the federal government was working for them, they would say, no. yet we continue to hear over and over from the left that for who are coming in and doing things differently don't know how to run the government and the argument seems to be, well, we need people who know how to do what we have been doing even though it has continually led to failure. since being a new member here, i have appreciated you coming before this committee because for the last several years, i felt like you were making the best good faith effort in helping us find waste, fraud, and abuse.

you know, the last several weeks have been very interesting as new technology tools have been brought to the table and i have always -- i find myself in a quagmire here in the sense that i have always thought it odd that we begin counting waste, fraud, and abuse at $1 billion even though it is the best good faith effort we have had. i said a number of times that your report should probably be our agenda as a committee or somebody should be doing it. in the last few weeks, we have seen a handful of very young people with some very specific technical skills, and seemed to expose a lot that we have not been able to see through the government accountability office. so we have a lot of new information at our disposal when it comes to the very specific things that we are seeing. i wanted to touch on the report because while i do think that you do good work, i was also concerned about some of the things that i do see in the report and maybe some of the

lenses things are being interpreted through. one, for example, interest payments and what we are paying on interest is not even mentioned and yet it is superseding our military spending. one of the things you mentioned is strategic human capital and all the solutions to address it has to do with basically more government. more programs, and it continues to fall into this thing we see continually throughout the bureaucracy where the answer to failed government is more government. and sometimes, that can be the case but there is nothing addressing the fact that it takes two years to fire about employee. you know, we can talk about the state department recently. a lot has come out about usaid and transgender operas overseas and it was kind of things. i did not see -- again, it is 300 pages. i might have missed it but i did not see very much addressing the state department and then there was a lot concerning climate stuff, specifically when it came to connecting disaster relief to

climate activity, man-made carbon creation. and that, at best, connecting that to hurricanes is at best debatable science right now yet the report acts as if it is established, long-held science and makes a number of recommendations for that. on the other hand, it says that we need to look at oil and gas revenues. you actually mentioned earlier that, you know, maybe we need more but we are talking about $15 billion there and maybe there's 10% we are not getting so we are talking $1 billion to $5 billion but yet on the mandates, we lost $7.5 billion and that is not addressing the report as well so i have some concerns about whether -- we talk about it being nonpartisan. i think that is your best intention but at the same time, with the multi thousand people on staff, i have some concerns about the true nonpartisan

nature of the report. i do want to give you some time to address something because a lot has come up about medicaid recently. there's a lot of fear mongering, chicken little stories, the sky is falling if we check anything in medicaid. if we are going to correct horse on the fiscal course of our nation, we have to address the mandatory side of things but you give a number of things touching medicaid that we can do that don't actually address the people medicaid was affected for. in other words, we are not taking disabled people off of medicaid. children are still being -- their needs are still being met. can you talk about some of those ways? find savings for the american people. >> before i get to medicaid, let me just touch on some of the things you talked about. first on interest on a debt, i issued a special report on the fiscal health of our government basically saying it is on an unsustainable long-term fiscal path. i specifically called out the

increase in interest on the debt, call fuller a plan to put the federal government on a more sustainable fiscal path, point out the main cost drivers which are health care demographics and growth in interest on the debt and i have also tried to make recommendations for about a decade to try to change the approach to setting the debt ceiling. there is nothing to control the debt. on the issue on staffing, we are not saying you need more government. we are saying congress and the administration said this is what we want to do. and what we are saying is, ok, you don't have the people in order to accomplish what congress has said in statute and administration's priorities are so we are not determining the size and scope of government. that is up to elected officials. we are saying, however you define it, it is not being implemented properly. cracks on that point, on the point with the change of policy

that we are seeing from the trump administration, could we expect this report to deal with climate issues differently or is it going to be -- >> i want to be clear on that. our only focus on the climate issue is not on what is causing it. it is on the fiscal exposure to the federal government and that is that the federal government is an insurer. the flood insurance programs are not actuarially sound. 22.5 billion dollars to the treasury after the congress was already forgiven $17 billion. the defense department has been under instructions from the congress to look at its impact on its installations domestically and internationally. the agriculture, crop insurance, has more than doubled over a period of time. wildfires have expanded and the federal government is fiscally exposed so all that's all we are saying is the fiscal guardians of the federal government, it is

costing a lot more money and it is better to focus on resilience and to try to build things up front. we are not commenting on the science of it or whatever on that area. let me ask my colleague to talk about medicaid because we have a lot of good suggestions. >> i will try to be quick. so we have over 625 recommendations but there's three key ones that get at program integrity and the medicaid program, to your point, congressmen, so looking at the budget neutrality of medicaid immigrations and making sure cms is really clear about what that means when states experiment, we want to make sure we are not spending more than the other guys would have. looking at the data behind some of the nonfederal share of payments in medicaid so understanding state directed payments to managed-care plans and understanding sort of provider taxes and other things states use to help finance their share, and then leveraging the findings of work that they can be doing with state auditors. we made a lot of points about this, just using the trends and findings the state auditors find through their audits to inform

their own oversight of the program. so all areas directed at program integrity. -- program integrity activities. >> mr. garcia, we can follow up. >> i was just going to say i will submit the fiscal health report, for the record, for the committee. >> thank you. the chair recognizes mr. garcia. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate the work of the gao and there is incredible work that happens there. a lot of uncovering of waste, fraud, and abuse happens. i want to thank you for your important testimony. i agree there is absolutely a responsibility for as to look at ways of reducing the deficit to actually make government more efficient and i think that -- i served as mayor before coming to this committee and we worked really hard with our auditor, our state auditor to do just that says thank you for being here. i do have some simple yes or no questions for you which i think are important. do you believe that the recent

firing of federal workers who are therefore on probationary status, does anything to solve the important problems you raised today? yes or no? >> i have agreed to tell the whole truth, nothing but the truth, and the whole truth sometimes does not get reduced to a yes or no answer. so in that case, i think it is important to look at what functions we are being provided and what was done in those cases, but it is important that the roles be followed, that there's certain personnel requirements. >> would you say yes or no? >> i would say that -- the question was whether it would solve any of the problems we identified on the high-risk list and the answer to that question would be it is doubtful. >> i agree with you. it would be a no. has the gao recommendation ever included firing faa aircraft

safety inspectors who prepare air traffic control facilities? >> no. >> angry. have they ever made any recommendation of firing inspection workers who were tracking the bird flu outbreak or other outbreaks in poultry or cattle? >> i do not believe so, no. >> thank you. have they recommended firing national nuclear administration workers who oversee our nation's nuclear stockpile? >> no. >> what about firing the only locksmith at yosemite national park? have you ever recommended that? >> i'm not sure we have ever run into the locksmith at the park. >> the answer to that is you have not. so i thank you for that because none of these have ever actually aligned with any of the recommendations that have come out of your office yet they are clearly huge priorities for elon musk and his doge team. it is a crusade against the government, against actually helping people across this country and the hypocrisy that we are seeing today, and there are committees that i think it

is quite disturbing to house democrats. republican colleagues spent a lot of time warning about unsustainable deficits. we know that today, there is a huge vote on a budget. their budget version of the bill has a four point $5 trillion tax cut giveaway essentially, when we should be asking the super rich to actually pay more and at the center of this, we know is a huge cut to medicaid. they are trying to get at least $880 billion, maybe more, in medicaid cuts. in my district alone, we have 300,000 people who are dependent on medicaid approximately which is a huge amount of the community in the district. nationally, 80 million people we know are in medicaid but it actually impacts every single district across the country, whether you are talking about kentucky's first district or 26.5% of the population there, 155,000 people are dependent on medicaid. whether it is in ohio's fourth straight from over 100,000 people depend on medicaid.

that is 15% of the population. whether it is in louisiana's third district, almost 200,000 people dependent on medicaid, or in georgia's 14th district where 109,000 people, 16% of the population are dependent on medicaid. we know that medicaid saves lives and these are huge numbers of people, folks who are colleagues of ours on the other set of the aisle who are members of this committee and that oftentimes are here at this committee so this actually has an impact to our constituents. it means elderly and disabled people will not get their health care, long-term care. it actually impacts people with real substance abuse issues and one other thing people don't realize about medicaid, there's a lot of conversation in this country about births and encouraging people to have more children. medicaid covers 41% of all births in our country. 41% of u.s. births were paid for by medicaid so if this is really about supporting families and

expanding families, we should also be talking about supporting and expanding medicaid coverage for americans and providing more coverage, not less so with that, i want to thank you again for your work and i am hope that enough republicans in today's vote will do the right thing and avoid medicaid cuts for it with that, i yelled back. >> the chair recognizes miss green. >> thank you, mr. chairman, for being here today, and congratulations on your upcoming retirement. you know, for the past four years, democrats have been in control of basically all government functions for the american people. we are at $36 trillion in debt and the lies are getting to be outrageous. just listen to one of my colleagues talk about medicaid. the truth is, for people watching at home, your medicaid benefits cannot get cut unless the governor of your state cuts your benefits. that is the real truth.

republicans here in washington and congress, we are not taking away anyone's medicaid benefits. as a matter of fact, we are trying to cut out improper payments, trying to cut out fraud. at my subcommittee, i had a hearing just two weeks ago where we talked about improper payments. it is unbelievable, and i am sure you would agree, the amount of money that is being paid to dead people, to foreigners, to criminals, to terrorists, is amounting in the billions and billions of dollars every single year. that is what democrats and republicans should be agreeing on. we should be able to come together and say let's stop this immediately. another thing that i find outrageous is that democrats under the biden administration past $7.5 billion in spending to build 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations all over the country, whether americans wanted them or not. but only eight of these electric

vehicle charging stations even got built. i think that should have been in your top five list because where is that money? honestly, where is that money? that is a great question. some other things i would like to bring up to you here is geo a estimates total fraud in these programs for unemployment insurance, and you were just talking about it, during the pandemic, is at least $60 billion. americans all over the country will never forget that democrats shut our country down, shut our businesses down. people got fired. their churches were closed. all their rights were taken away, and $60 billion, $60 billion from the department of labor has still not developed an antifraud strategy even though $60 billion is missing. also, the medicare program and scale of medicare spending is innately high-risk with the program spending an estimated $1 trillion in 2024.

of that, in fiscal year 22 before, we saw a roughly -- i will go back to improper payments again -- $54.3 billion in improper payments and we have democrats crying over elon musk? are you kidding me? the american people, the polling is out. 72%. democrats and republicans support doge, support it. 72%. they are not upset about anything elon musk is doing for as a matter of fact, they are happy. they want all these improper payments, they want all of this waste back. now here's what is really interesting to me. despite this significant progress made since the 2023 high-risk update, thank you for that, u.s. ps remains unable to fund its services and employee obligations. that is outrageous. private companies have to be able to find everything they do

but the united states postal service still cannot do it. now, the big one, the big one, the department of defense financial management first appeared on the high-risk list in 1995, 1995. hey, i graduated from high school in 1992. that is a long time ago. now, it remains on this risk -- this list to 28 years later, 28 years later. congress has not fixed this. the department of defense has not fixed this. last year, the pentagon, with a budget of around $850 billion, failed its seventh straight audit. what are we doing? what are we doing? this is not -- we should be at the most bipartisan time in history where republicans and democrats can come together and say the american people's money is being stolen, being lost, and

it is outright treason to treat the american people this way. let me ask you this question, and i would feel -- i cannot imagine all the things you all have seen in your worke. do you disagree with the effort of dog? >> there is probably nobody in the government that wants the government to be more efficient and effective than we do at the gao and i do personally. that is our job to help do that. you know, we have worked many, many years in order to bring about those changes, so yes. there's a couple bipartisan things that you touched on. i think you and your committee, this committee could do. one is we have recommended that they make, in order to stop paying dead people, they make a social security master death file which is given to treasury but only for a three-year period. they already saved millions of

dollars. congress needs to make it permanent. you could save hundreds of millions of dollars if that is done. >> can i get information from your team afterward? ok, that would be great. about identity verification? >> it needs to be more automated and we have recommendations for that to occur in the end of clement insurance area. actually, the unemployment insurance estimate we made was $100 billion to 130 $5 billion. the other thing that could be done on a bipartisan basis is that the statute of limitations to go after the fraud there's needs to be extended from five years to 10 years. congress did it for the paycheck protection program but not for unemployment insurance which is almost due to expire so if congress does not act soon, some fraudsters are likely to get away because they will be outside of the statute of limitations so those things are really important. and i think it should be bipartisan. >> i agree. i think my time is up. thank you. >> thank you.

the ranking member pointed out that we have got over -- a little bit over on our side. if someone feels the need to go over, i am keeping up with the time so we will make it all worked out. the chair recognizes -- miss brown. the chair recognizes miss brown. >> thank you, chairman. thank you for joining us today. this administration claims to care about rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse, but the facts tell a very different story. i want to set the record straight. on week one, president trump fired 17 inspectors general. these are the folks who work on behalf of the people, republicans and democrats, regardless of party affiliation, or who is in the white house. they are the watchdogs who root out government waste, fraud, and abuse. it day in and day out. last year, they identified nearly $100 billion in potential

savings. if elon musk -- i'm sorry -- if donald trump and elon musk cared about cracking down on waste, they would be talking to these auditors, not firing them right out of the gate. meanwhile, the government accountability office provides cost-cutting recommendations that save taxpayers $40 million each year. so if trump was serious about efficiency, it would focus on implementing the thousands of outstanding gao recommendations including the 38 areas on the high-risk list but that is not what is happening. instead, trump created the redundant department of government efficiency, putting his billionaire campaign donor, elon musk, who just so happens to be a government contractor, in charge. that is not efficiency. that is corruption dressed up as reform. doge's record so far, overstated

claims, receipts that don't add up, lies about condoms in gaza, lies about 130-year-olds on social security, and a billion-dollar contract that was really $8 million. can somebody say troops? doge claims -- oops? doge claims to have saved 55 billion dollars. the wall street journal, rupert murdoch's wall street journal, crunched the numbers this weekend and found just $2.6 billion in savings, mostly from canceled contracts and cuts in research funding for things like alzheimer's and chronic lung disease. which brings me to my questions. how does the gao define government waste? >> waste is defined as an extravagant spending or

something that does not really add any value in terms of the government's overall accomplishment of goals. >> thank you. based on that definition, would eliminating the consumer financial protection bureau qualify as cutting waste or making a policy choice? >> that is basically a value judgment and a policy choice and in order to do that -- >> in my district, a federal grant to train teachers in underserved urban schools was terminated solely because it was labeled as a d.e.i. initiative. is this cutting waste or making a policy choice? >> waste to one person is not waste to another person. but these are basically value judgments that are made based on policy preferences. >> in your testimony, you mentioned that 20 of the 38

areas on the high-risk list in part are due to skills gaps or inadequate number of staff. wood indiscriminately firing probationary staff make it more or less likely that government addresses waste, fraud, and abuse? >> i answered this question earlier and said it was doubtful. >> doubtful? thank you. in your testimony, it highlights that the gross tax gap which is the difference between taxes owed and taxes paid on top, can you remind us what the tax gap was in 2022? >> i would have to go back and take a look at what it was in 2022 but it has been about the same as a percent of the economy over time even though the numbers have grown. as a percent of gdp, it >> >> is about the same. what would that percentage be? >> i would have to -- i will

provide that for the record. i. >> i'm going to step out on a limb and say it is $700 billion a year that american taxpayers are being robbed of roughly and that sure sounds like a lot of waste to me. now, would firing some sick, 6000 irs workers lead to more or less of that waste? >> it depends on what their jobs are. you know, at the rs. what you basically -- they need more revenue agents and people for customer service, so you would have to look at what functions those people do and decide whether or not they are important or not. >> thank you. type and let me clarify. high income individuals are among the most notorious tax cheats and these are the same people republicans want to reward with a $4.5 trillion tax

cut at the expense of medicaid, that's, and fastens for children and seniors, and that is what this is really all about. it is not about saving money. it is about consolidating power and ensuring that the rich get richer so from where i sit, it looks like trump and elon musk are not fighting waste. they are just ensuring that the waste benefits the wealthy man with that, mr. chairman, i yelled back. >> the chair recognizes mr. perry from pennsylvania. >> thanks. good to see you again. you know a lot of things about a lot of things so i am going to go to somewhere where at least it has been bipartisan and i hope just by talking about it, that doesn't destroy that because we got a lot of work today do. the federal government owes about a quarter of a million in buildings and structures, 2 billion square feet of office space. a study by your agency recently

indicated 17 of the 24 agencies reviewed use 25% or less of their headquarters office space. even at their mark, 24 federal agencies, none of them use more than 49%. we got more than 11,000 acres of old, unused buildings in the american taxpayer, they are forced to pay $2 million a year for office space that sits empty. 80% of leases are going to expire in the next five years for it i don't know if you are looking to take a contractor job after you leave this rat race, but maybe that is something that you are interested in. they reported justice -- just this year that real property management was downgraded from met to partially match. now, i think you are familiar with a thing called -- which we passed out of that committee. bipartisan.

not easy but bipartisan and you know, alongside the benchmark, we would like to remedy this situation of $2 billion a year for more than 11,000 acres. of old, unused office space. that is more than half the size of disney world just sitting there empty but we are paying for it. you know a lot of things. what would be your recommendation to congress and to opm to speed up the implementation process question work as you know, most of these agencies don't want to give any of it up and though they are not using it. so what do we do customer each one congress and omd. >> dave maroney is here and he did the study referenced so i will let him explain in a minute but the one thing i would say that congress needs to do is to make sure that there's lessons learned. congress tried to expedite this by creating a board and the board was to identify properties

for sale. they had three rounds that barely made a dent in anything. they were not in sync with omb. there's no lessons learned and that is why we downgraded them. there is still not a process to dispose of federal real property quickly and expeditiously and congress can create that and set milestones. i think it is very good that you set benchmarks for the buildings that we keep what we have got to get rid of a lot of buildings. >> we set the benchmarks but we have agencies that cannot meet them or don't meet them but they still want to hang onto them. >> you have got to get rid of some of the properties. they can enumerate. >> same market is an important point in the law you referenced. within a year, the measurements requiring omb and gsh to start notifying agencies if they have extra space but i think you can do it once the measures are in place. how many people are coming into these buildings on a daily basis, use it as measurements, say we have extra space, and

then the agencies need to expeditiously move forward and has a role to ensure that they are setting appropriate time frames for agencies to respond if they are not doing it on their own? congress has oversight of the implementation of the act and as the comptroller general mention, taking a look at the process once buildings are going into the pipeline to be gotten rid of, looking at ways to make it less complicated. we have noted for years that it is a complex, complicated process that takes too long and the reform process, the faster process, was an attempt to look at ways to do that. your legislation has a of it so it is an opportunity to take lessons not only on what properties can we dispose of but how can we do it more quickly question market is a lot of extra space. >> it requires more legislation from us regarding the candidates and the process? is that what it requires? or can this be done by the agency like gsa? can they do this on their own and you know,

even though we want them to divest, sometimes, they don't, even when we give them a timeline. the timelines keep slipping so then what? >> i think having the data, as you know from that report for your subcommittee, prior to that, there was not even data on utilization outside of headquarters. it is hard to tell how much space you need if you are not actually measuring it. that legislation will require data throughout the country. that is what is really important for the agencies to take a look at that data and omb to be there to push, to say, ok, if you have more than you need, start getting rid of it. >> wouldn't be an impoundment if omb said you have extra you are not utilizing so we are not paying for the rest? as a forcing function? >> what i think needs to be done, there is a federal building fund. you know, in order to dispose of some of this property, you need to fix it up sometimes. >> we can get into the backlog

of maintenance and all of that. >> but in this case, congress has been using the federal building fund for other purposes so i think we have to come to grips with if you want to -- >> unbelievable, right, that they would do that. >> that thing shocked me after being in this job for so long that we have to get in sync and the other thing congress ought to do is make sure that whenever the extent -- the extension of it is is that they work in concert. last time, they were not working together. >> thank you, chairman. i yelled back. >> the chair recognizes miss lee. >> thank you, mr. chair. mr. todaro, thank you for being here today and sharing with this committee this year's high-risk list. this of course is the list that the government accountability office puts out every year that lays out the government programs most at risk for waste, fraud,

and abuse, and recommend ways to improve them. that is what doge is pretending to be. the work gao does is not pretend and they produce benefits at an average of $40 billion per year. your time goes back more than 50 years as you told us it is fair to say you have a lot of experience with this list and the work, correct? thank you. i have just a few yes or no questions. yes or no questions about some of the contents of the high-risk list. one of the areas identified in this list is the need to provide better and more timely health care. does your report recommend improving veteran health care by cutting more than $1000? >> by what? >> by cutting more than 1000 jobs. >> no, it does not. >> thank you. how about the usda? does your report recommend firing the workers tackling the

bird flu outbreak? what snow. >> another major area. -- your list identifies i and cybersecurity improvement. does your this recommend anywhere that the federal government start bypassing security protocols and installing outside and unfitted software? >> no. >> is cutting diversity, equity, and inclusion programs recommended anywhere in your report? >> no, we do not discuss those issues. >> so no. >> that is not a topic in the report. >> so it is not there. >> right. >> thank. >> those are all actions taken by elon musk and the doge wrecking crew. none of it is doing anything to reduce waste, fraud, and abuse. it's not suppressing that none of his billions have been cut in government contracts that none of the actions have helped the american people. eggs are still expensive. waffle house has added a

surcharge and thousands of workers across the country last there. -- their jobs. slashing all the funding for programs and services is only going to lead to more inefficiencies and more costs later. the gao has a blueprint of what to do to save billions of dollars. the high-risk list is reported out every year and we have a hearing on it every year yet trump and elon musk are ignoring these reports. instead, they are getting our government programs and services to root out waste and fix our $36 trillion dollar debt crisis. in reality, elon musk and trump want to pay for a tax giveaway to the mega rich. make no mistake. four point $5 trillion tax giveaway is government spending and it will balloon the deficit. if republicans want to be serious about tackling our debt, they should start there. start by putting the american people ahead of the pocketbooks of their billionaire elite friends. thank you again for your time.

i yield back to the ranking member. >> i think my colleague and i echo what she has just said. the inspectors general are an important part of accountability, transparency, efficiency, and oversight of the federal government in a broad scope. this firing 17 of those inspectors general help with government efficiency? >> no. i think the firing -- i'm sorry. i'm sorry. no. and i think it was very unfortunate. i think we have lost a lot of institutional knowledge and expertise with those firings. you know, there was some inspector general's fired back in the first trump administration and i issued a report talking about the importance of independent inspectors general and recommended that the congress add some provisions, the 30 day

notice period, because inspector general's also report to the congress. they are very unique even though they are in the executive branch. i do not dispute the president's authority to fire them but there should have been notice of 30 days given and specific reasons for the firings. it is important to have independence. >> it should be performance-based and it has to be because otherwise we are jeopardizing the independence of the secretary-general. i thank my colleague for yielding. >> the next governor of florida for five minutes. >> i actually appreciate that, mr. chairman. thank you. it is good to see you again. thank you for being back. since 2003, federal agencies reported about $2.8 trillion in improper payments including over the last seven years

consecutively at a minimum, $150 billion in each one of those years. the high-risk report mentions that the department of agriculture, hhs, hud, dhs, opm, and sba, all failed to report improper payment estimates in fy 2023, and to reiterate for the making people, we have seven agencies of the federal government that have not reported on their improper payments and if memory serves, the last report gao issued had improper payments north of two had a $40 billion that was reported. what are some of the real issues within the federal government for the lack of ability for these agencies to report on improper payments within their purview? >> i think there needs to be more pressure put on those agencies by the administrations that are in place and i have

talked to the prior administrations about this and congress needs to demand that the law be followed and they do proper payment estimates. i think it is not good management to not know how much you are paying that you should not be paying. it is not good fiscal stewardship so i am very disappointed they are not reporting and i would encourage the congress and the trump administration to require a report. >> i would agree with you wholeheartedly. the agencies that did not report, some of them vary in size. obviously, that apartment of homeland security is a major department of the federal government. considering that, let's just say for estimates sake -- and have the report in front of me -- if fiscal year 23, improper payments were $250 billion. if we had the estimates of those seven departments, what you think the actual -- was from 2023?

>> i cannot hesitate to guest. the one thing congress needs to do in this area, the temporary assistance for needy families, they believe, at hhs, they cannot make an estimate unless congress changes the law so they refuse to do it, saying they don't have the legal authority to require the states to give them the information they need in order to make an improper payment estimates so congress needs to change the statute there. and i think that is important. >> thank you. puma is currently managing over 600 major disaster declarations, some of which have occurred 20 years ago. one of the gao recommendations is this years -- in this years high-risk report is that fema should identify and document lessons learned related to estimating obligations for catastrophic disasters. can you expand upon this? >> mr. curry is rs -- our expert. >> fema is always struggling with this because they don't know how much they will need and

then we have a catastrophic disaster season like you had last year in a home state with helene and milton and that throws everything off. so covid really threw this off because fema did not expect to spend what it spent on covid. at the end of this year, it will have spent while north of $150 billion on covid and one -- what that has done is that it has thrown all the estimates off. it has gone up over time which affects their estimates moving forward and they spend way more than they thought they were going to have to spend on that and that is one of the reasons disaster relief fund is in this constant negative situation. it is supposed to be -- it is going to be $12 billion underwater already at the end of september even after the supplemental appropriation that you are provided late last year. >> not to cut you off but to go down this line that we are talking about, is fema still having to make payments associated with covid-19? >> absolutely, they are still making payments. >> do you have an estimate of how much fema is appropriating

out because of covid-19? >> last time i checked, which was at the end of february, they were upwards of $130 billion they had paid out and they expect to spend over $150 billion at the end of the fiscal year and they also told us they expected the disaster to run through the end of fy 26, next year, and spent almost $100 billion on that, so they are still reimbursing state and local governments for that. spend another 180 billion dollars reimbursing state and local governments for covid-19? >> another $50 billion. >> to take it to $180 billion. i appreciate that. i am out of my time. thank you for your time in your service. >> so, before we go on, someone said earlier be cannot cut medicaid here in congress and i want to make sure everybody at home knows that is not true.

my state, the republican budget, would cut medicaid budgets. everyone who would budget -- everyone would lose that benefit. it would hurt tossed and many other states, millions of people across the country. but moving on, thank you for coming. i saw on the news that doge had a savings dashboard online. have you seen this website? >> i have not. >> i have it up here. it says let's balance the budget. doge's estimated savings are $65 billion. i would like to enter into the record this article february 25 from the new york times. doge quietly deletes the five biggest spending cuts it celebrated last week. the subtitle is the cuts highlighted in an earlier version of the law contained mistakes that vastly inflated the amount of money saved. how much money do you think doge

is actually saving? >> i don't know. >> i don't know either. in fact a lot of us don't know. we really want to ask them. have you met with anyone at doge for elon musk? >> i have not. we have had a couple of our people meet with some doge people at the treasury department to talk about the general fund of the treasury. since we audit the federal government's financial statements we also audit the general fund which is all the cash payment systems over there. they had some questions about a report. that is the extent of it so far. we have a number of requests from congress to begin looking at their access to the systems, and we will begin that work at a number of agencies across government. >> i have sent a lot of letters. have they respond to any of your requests so far? >> we are just getting started. >> have you sent any requests to them? >> we asked for an entrance

meeting at the treasury department and so we expect -- >> what did they say? >> as far as i know we are not having any progress. >> i tried to get into the treasury department and they would not let me in. >> i expect and anticipate cooperation. >> interesting. i've heard a lot that this is about addressing the federal debt. if you got rid of every single federal civil servant, how much of the federal debt would that actually pay down, the percentage? >> the total federal payroll is less than 10% of the federal government's expenditures. the problem with our debt is you can eliminate almost the entire discretionary part of the budget and still not really make an impact long term on the deficit path that we are on right now.

you are $36 trillion in debt right now. the debt to gdp ratio from debt held by public this year will be 100%. in our entire history it has only been 106% during world war ii. absent any change in fiscal policy, by 2050 it will be over 200% of debt to gdp ratio. the only way to deal with this is to deal with the main driver which is health care costs. you can make inroads -- >> i would conclude from that then that this effort is not doing much, if anything, to to reduce our federal deficit or debt. it is a drop in the bucket, i would say. now let's look at what the federal civil servants who are being fired and targeted en mass are doing. they are firing nuclear safety experts.

accidentally. they are trying to find them again, they deleted all their contact info. they fire the staff researching bird flu, which is very relevant. they cut nih and cdc staff. some high risk projects you are talking about, staff that is integral to implementing a lot of your recommendations were fired. even the website i was just talking about, this wall of receipts, they messed that up too. they said they cut about $8 billion at ice, but it was $8 million. that's setting aside the fact that they gave accidentally perhaps self-proclaimed racists read and write access to critical treasury data that includes almost every american's personal information. it does not seem like this is very good. if they are trying to cut the deficit and get rid of waste,

fraud and abuse, they are doing a really bad job. thank you for my time. >> thank you. it is good to see you again. i will be sad after you leave. you had mentioned in the previous conversation he debt to gdp ratio at nearly 100%. buttock learn -- but according to the debt clock, $36 trillion with gdp of $29.6 trillion, we are actually at 123%. >> well, i am counting just debt held by the public. the 36 includes debt we owe them ourselves, not including transfers like medicare trust fund. you are right, if you use gross debt. i am just using what is held by the public. >> over the next 10 years we are planning to add another $20 trillion on the current spend

level? >> correct. >> so what what point do we end up in a situation where we can't remake the interest payments? >> i think this is the big issue. i have said we have tremendous interest rate exposure because we borrow short-term. so we are always refinancing the debt that we have before. we never pay down any debt. and rates are going up and that is what has happened. the interest on the debt in 2023 was $352 billion. this year it will be $1 trillion. so compound interest works well when you are saving, but not when you are borrowing. >> that is why for me, the alarming number was seeing that the growth and the interest payments from last year to this year has been over $200 billion just in the growth. so when we are talking about a

reconciliation package, if you are just going to cover the growth in the interest payments, you need to find savings of at least $2 trillion over the next 10 years, correct? >> absolutely. this is a big problem. >> this is a really big problem. and i would really welcome if our democratic colleagues would recognize, this is not a republican problem, it is not a democrat problem. this is a math problem. this is a serious thing. i think we only have maybe a handful of years left to correct this before we end up in a debt spiral. >> absolutely. you're are also going to confront the pollution of the social security trust fund and the medicare trust fund. >> eight to 11 years? >> yes. and it depends on the trustees estimates will be out in another couple months, and i would not

be surprised if those dates are moved up. >> if we are having a mandatory spending conversation, and this is what my question to you is. as someone who doesn't -- i think universally, even though we are going to be criticized as though we are trying to kick people off of medicaid, if the goal is not to kick anybody off of medicaid that needs it, what are the different solutions that are in our toolbox where we can eliminate improper payments? i would hope to think that democrats are not opposed to eliminating improper payments in medicaid. right? one would hope. one would hope that they would not be opposed to finding fraudsters or people that are not supposed to be receiving the benefits. one would hope that you would want to find ways of getting the best bang for your buck within the program. that is what i want to drill down to. at the end of the day this is

the health-care industry and the cost of health care that the federal government is having to do with medicaid and medicare and even the insurance on the lives of the federal workforce, correct? so have you guys seen anything that can be done that would actually have an impact in driving down health care costs? >> this is a compound problem because you have health care costs going up faster than the economy. and you have the demographics working against this because there are older people who are hitting the payroll. it is a combination of both things. >> if you could answer this before my time runs out. i noticed there was a study done in 2019, and i'm hoping you have new studies, that indicated we have studied the impact pdm's have had and whether or not that money, that savings was coming back to the federal government.

and if there is new data, because at that time it was 96% coming back in savings. so. >> on the pbm issue, i have to get back to you on how much. we are doing current work in that area. in terms of what would drive down, the way you pay for services, the responsibility of the patients for cost sharing, those other the types of things where the government can take some action. for example, we have had a long-standing recommendation that you have all considered in multiple congresses of making sure that medicare and other payers are paying the same for services whether they are delivered in the physician office or the hospital outpatient setting. the most recent cbo score of that -- site neutrality, yes. the most recent score of that is 150 $1 billion in savings over 10 years and that is the entire health care system. it is not just savings within medicare, it will have an impact

on other programs as well as the private sector. there are lots of examples of that of paying differently for services. >> can you provide those services to me? >> we will do that. there is also the adjustments made every year between fee for service in medicare and medicare advantage. and the legislative commission, i appoint the members, one for medicare, one for medicaid. in the medpac area they estimate there are over payments being made to the managed-care portion of $40 billion. so we have recommendations to make that a fair comparison so we are not overpaying. >> thank you. i yield back. >> sorry. thank you, mr. chairman. you said today, quote, there

is a need for change would how we do so matters. i cannot agree with you more. we need to ensure our government and its agencies and programs are running efficiently and free of waste to be can deliver for the american people. we need to make sure seniors are getting social security checks on time so they can pay their rent and have food on the table. meanwhile elon musk is spreading brazen lies that tens of millions of debt america -- dead americans are receiving checks, and he is going after our personal data. we need to make sure we are getting correct tax returns so that americans depend and can respond on a timely manner. but president trump just fired 6700 irs employees in the middle of tax season. and we need to ensure americans on medicare continue using telehealth services, which is essential for rural communities and seniors, but the president is shutting that service down as well in april. they fired over 1000 va

employees that are veterans depend on for essential health care services and their hard-earned benefits. not only that, but they enacted a hiring freeze for this agency that already has a shortage of down as and nurses -- doctors and nurses. you confirmed this earlier as well. there has been a lot of talk about polling from my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, so i would like to cite recent polling on this issue. in two recent polls when respondents were asked whether they approved or disapproved of the job elon musk is doing within the federal government, there was a 34% approval compared to a 49% disapproval. that poll was carried between february 13 and february 18 and also found 52% of americans disapprove of musk shutting down federal programs he deems unnecessary. in another poll only 20% believe musk is a good thing. americans are fed up with the corruption. they know that none of what is

happening is about addressing waste, fraud and abuse, the new buzzword. it is about giving more money to billionaires. thank you again for being here. do you believe firing 6700 irs employees reduces waste and makes tax filing more efficient? >> no. >> thank you. does the high risk list recommended dismantling of usaid, the department of education, or the consumer financial protection bureau? >> no, we do not recommend that. >> did elon musk or doge consult with you and your team to decide who to fire and who gets to keep their jobs? >> no. >> so, the independent nonpartisan office, your office, dedicated to research how the federal government can increase efficiency -- and i have heard a lot of praise from both sides, which is deserved -- the gao was

not in any way consulted by the trump administration or elon musk before they made sweeping decisions to fire thousands of government employees, dismantle agency, or overstep congress to do so? >> the point of clarification i would make is since we are an independent nonpartisan organization in the legislative branch, it is really not our role to be consulted on personnel decisions in the executive branch. we give advice on what kinds of functions, the operations of the government, but we don't make recommendations about specific individuals and personnel decisions. that is left to them. but what we do look at is whether or not decisions like that were made in accordance with law and principles. there is also the merit systems protection board and office of special counsel and the fair labor relations board. there are a number of entities that are independent agencies that are supposed to focus on the personnel process and whether people are treated

fairly. >> thank you. that clarification is helpful. it is overall extremely alarming to me that you were not consulted in such sweeping, rapid changes that have come about. your recommendations, many of them have been around for years and still remain an issue that we very much should be tackling. but the corruption of doge and elon musk, and to a point that has already been said, if they believe that what they are doing is correct and they are tackling these issues for the american people, i welcome them to come here and speak to us as well. thank you again so much. >> the chair now recognizes, uhhh. mr. maguire. >> thank you for your service and i wish you the best in retirement. our country is in big trouble. $36 trillion in debt.

we could be sounding alarms all over the place on both sides of the aisle if it was $1 trillion. if you spend more money per day in your household then you make per day, you would be out on the street. and if you are a business and you spend more than a billion dollars a day you would be out of business. >> please talk into the microphone. >> if the government was a business, it would be out of business. $36 trillion is the biggest national security issue in our country. i heard folks on the other side of the aisle talk about dei. if you had a list of things he would do if you wanted to destroy our country, you would have open borders, you would have 103,000 people a year die from fentanyl overdose from this chinese chemical warfare fentanyl being produced coming into our border. you would spend more money than you make, things that they're in -- you know what dei stands for? didn't earn it. plus it's illegal discrimination

and it destroys efficiency. equal opportunity is ok but equal outcome is marxist. instead of focusing on waste fraud and abuse, although the last four years we were focused on the advice of woke ideologies. when you are doing business with foreign countries they say when we work with america's competitors they say we want to build a bridge to talk about building a bridge. america wants to talk about woke ideologies. it is ridiculous. i heard it was said trump is not serious about being efficient. we talk about the fentanyl killing all these american people debt, 103,000 people year. border crossings are now down 95% from 2000 a day to about 200 a day. i would say that is pretty efficient. his recruitment is up in the military to the highest it has been 11 years. i would say that is pretty efficient. if we don't have the young men and women willing to step up and protect our nation, we will not have a nation.

he has also gotten his appointees through the senate just about faster than any president in history. i'd say that is pretty darn efficient. when you have $36 trillion of debt and it is getting worse, we are over the cliff and by the grace of god president trump, elon musk and everyone else wants to save this country. i think every major nation in the history that went under was because of bankruptcy. he got hostages returned. in record time. so i would say president trump definitely cares about efficiency. what shocks me is that the left is outraged at elon musk and all of these people that are fighting so hard to discover waste fraud and abuse and save our country but they are not outraged at the people who committed the waste fraud and abuse. and that just shocks me. i find it concerning that since 2003, federal agencies have reported 2.8 trillion dollars in estimated improper payments. the gao issued a biannual report

at the start of each congress to identify which programs are vulnerable to fraud waste and abuse and mismanagement. so, are there any common themes or problems you have noticed across the high risk areas when compiling this list in recent years? >> yes. there's a number of areas we have been adding to the list involve multiple agencies to have to work together in order to address it. one of them is on point to your point about fentanyl. we added drug miss muse as a high risk area because there needed to be a better national strategy that polled together federal departments and agencies but also work at the state and local level, work with law enforcement, work with treatment facilities and others. and so that is an area that requires multiple agencies to work together. so that is one of the patterns that we have seen over time. >> i would say we the people are

sick and tired of being ripped off and in just five weeks elon musk and his genius team -- by the way, the guys the richest men in the world, he doesn't need our money. president trump is the only president i have ever heard of that left office with less money. every other president has left office with more money. but we have got to make some good decisions. our country is in really big trouble. we talk about fema. hurricane helene impacted my district as well and i was struck by how farmers and volunteers all across our commonwealth and our nation jumped into help people. what are some things that we can do -- like, i have heard proposed that some of the fema dues can be returned to the governors. what can we do to make natural disasters more efficient? >> one thing would be to determine at what level bestowed -- there are already the first responders.

fema gives grants for them to be better prepared. but we have always said, well, how prepared are they, and they have never been able to tell us over time. >> last question real quick. what is the definition of insanity? >> well, the common definition used is keep repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. >> yes. so we have to move quickly. i don't know if you know who mr. wonderful is, kevin o'leary, very successful businessman. on cnn he is saying doge should cut 20% more than you rebuild, because we are in drastic times, desperate times require desperate measures. >> we will provide answers on fema for the record. >> the chair recognizes mr. frost. >> thank you so much for being here today. the gao, government accountability office, is really important, thoughtful reports

that help us save billions of dollars every year and i thank you for that work and i think your staff are that work. the gal could not be more different than trump and elon musk's doge. trump and musk want to rip away the vital services that millions of americans depend on. he is doing it just to find money to give tax cuts to the richest people in this country and largest corporations in this country, many of whom pay less taxes than teachers. doge will save nothing for the american people while making everything worse for us, while trying to find room to give tax cuts to the richest people in this country. shamefully, those cuts include cuts to our military veterans, including the nearly 32,000 veterans that i proudly represent. i take this subject personally because i am the son of a veteran. i come from an air force family. they were in it when it was the army air corps. so i take this very personally.

v.a. health care is on the gao's high-risk list. how have staffing challenges at the v.a. contributed to this? >> they have contributed to it very significantly. >> i would say we talked about this a little earlier in terms of scheduling appointments for veterans, both in the v.a. facilities and in the community, providing treatments that are needed and timely care, which the v.a. has had problems with in the past, as we all know. not having the staff they need to continue on the path to make sure veterans have timely access. >> so not enough. >> and not the right type. i am very concerned about the mental health barrier. they don't have enough behavioral mental health people, particularly for rural veterans. >> 100%. >> the suicide prevention areas is another area. last i checked there were 17 veterans a day died by suicide.

it is a natural disgrace, in my opinion, that we are not better supporting these people. which is why i added it at the high-risk list. so they need doctors, nurses, they need to proper care. and also, the proper handoff if they go to community care as well. so it's an issue that we need to be very careful on how we handle and make sure is done properly. >> i 100% agree with you. i was about to ask you the v.a.'s need to hire more psychiatrists and psychologists so i appreciate you bringing that up. last week i held a veterans town hall at my local v.a. there were a few cool -- there were a few hundred people who showed up. folks came very confused, very angry, and very scared. i have some of their questions. they asked, will i lose my benefits? who staffs doge and what are they doing with my personal medical information? will budget cuts mean that i will have longer wait times?

why is my health care being sacrificed to politics? these are the questions people asked, my constituents, veterans asked me. among the 18 inspectors general that donald trump illegally fired, which by the way, congress was supposed to be notified before an ig is fired like this. maybe but two hours ago, republicans took a vote to silence me because i said donald trump is engaging in grafting. but complete crickets when he breaks the law and doesn't tell us about the firing of 18 inspectors general. how will the firing of the inspector general at the v.a. make it harder to address the issues my constituents, the veterans in my district, raised? >> i responded earlier that i thought it was unfortunate those ig's were fired. we lost a lot of institutional expertise in that area. we have worked very closely with micah missile over the years and

the other ig's. now, they have a very talented group of people, they will soldier on, and they will continue to do the job. but it was unfortunate. and i had recommended to the congress to make the change that required a 30 day notice and to give cause, because inspector generals do report to the congress as well as to the head of the agency. it is a very unique responsibility, and congress should have the opportunity to engage in a dialogue on it. i don't dispute the president's authority to fire them, but how it is down and following the proper procedures i believe it is important. >> the orlando v.a. health care system already suffers from critical staffing shortages. the people there, a large percentage of whom are veterans themselves, are doing a great job doing what they need to do. but they don't have the staff capacity necessary to be able to meet the demand, to be able to live up to our promise to people

who put their lives on the line for the safety and security of this country. that is something i take very seriously. it is something a lot of my republican colleagues used to take seriously, but times changed. thank you so much and i yield back. >> thank you for holding this hearing today. i'd like to start by addressing a few of the concerns that our colleagues have had on the other side of the aisle about the doge movement and elon musk in particular. first, they are telling us that what doge and elon musk are doing by firing federal workers, many of whom are not showing up to work to begin with, is somehow cruel. i would like to say that perhaps what is actually cruel is bankrupting our country by funding a federal workforce that isn't working. what is cruel is driving up inflation by spending more money than our federal government has,

harming working-class families across the country. what's what is cruel is consolidating power in an undemocratic administrative state, who doesn't answer to anybody, apparently, if they have their way. no federal worker has the right to work for the u.s. government, but our children do have a birth right to inherit a country that is not bankrupt. that is what house republicans and president trump and elon musk are trying to do by cutting out waste, fraud, and abuse from the federal government. what elon musk is doing is not cruelty, it is all truism. it is the first time that anybody has been able to actually write size our federal budget, and we should be applauding him regardless of which side of the aisle we sit on. i would also like to address the idea that elon musk and president trump are somehow corrupt in rightsizing the federal government.

if you want to know where the real corruption is my let's look at which side of the aisle has been benefiting from this slush fund that we have been giving out with very little accountability. it tends to be left-wing pet projects, left-wing media like npr and pbs, who always routinely run cover for democrats while attacking republicans. it is left-wing advocacy groups and ngos that are taking our tax dollars and promoting d.e.i. programs and transgender surgeries and girl power climate action, whatever that means. these are all left-wing movements that are being funded by our tax dollars. it raises the question of, how successful with the leftist political movement be in america if it were not for the fact that their whole movement is subsidized by taxpayers? that is what corruption is. we are finding out recently that stacey abrams is part of the

graft as well. apparently the a ppa gave $2 billion to a group called power forward communities that was funded in late 2023 and had only reported $100 in total revenue. power forward communities had no business managing a grant that large, of course. but they were appealing for democrats. the co-chair of power forward communities is shaun donovan, who previously served as barack obama's director of hud and omb. we also know stacey abrams is senior counsel for one of the collision groups called renaming america, affiliated with this. that is corruption and the waste we are trying to reach out. they talk about elon musk and doge and having access to american data. remember biden let 53 unpaid researchers and students have

full access to the american people's data at the irs, and there was no outrage then. we are learning now that the biden irs leaked taxpayer information. we were told last year that it was only for -- i say only -- for 70,000 americans. we are finding out today it is actually 405,000 americans. that is the kind of access to data i am concerned about, and it is being leapt to a left-wing news outlet partially funded by george soros. these are the questions we should be asking and raising. they like to talk, i think disingenuously and very hyper thought -- hyperbolic -- hyperbolically about president trump being a dictator, even though the constitution says the power should be vested in a president of the united states of america, not a technocratic, unelected administrative state that they have been propping up

for so long. we are a republic, not a european-style technocracy. that is why our country is the global leader in europe is not. -- and europe is not. but for decades, we have watched as this administering of state has metastasized an act with leftist further -- and acted with leftist fervor. what trump and mosk are doing is restoring constitutional order in this country, and that is why we should be supporting them. thank you, mr. chairman. >> chair now recognizes -- the chair and i recognizes mr. min. my out of order? i'm sorry. hold on. who is next? ok. sorry about that. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you, ranking member. i appreciate your testimony

today, sir, and thank you, as an mpa masters student a few years ago, i spent an awful lot of time reading your reports, and i appreciate the level of professionalism that you have led. thank you for your service. my colleague, mr. frost, who talked a bit about veterans, i appreciate that. my mother served the veteran administration for over 35 years. if you call 415-2 214-810, or in phoenix, 602-277-5511, or in texas, 713-719-1441, we know now when veterans, mothers have veterans, partners of veterans, when they are calling -- only three of many bas in the country -- folks are not going to answer

the phone. on february 14, this administration fired over 1000 v.a. workers. 1000 v.a. workers. when you cut staff, you cut services. when you cut services, these are more than just budget decisions. it is a betrayal of the american promise. our servicemen and women deserve better. they fought in the line of fire with an understanding that when they came home, they would have efficacious health benefits, social services, mental health services. that was our promise. it is not just in this administration where we have broken our promise. i would say we have not done what we should have in the past and currently in the present, but to annihilate critical staff supporting critical lives of

full to dedicated their lifespan to this country, it is a betrayal -- of folks who dedicated their lifespan to this country, it is a betrayal. a lexicon of america first, which i hear every day. i thank you but last week i visited an n.i.h. funding clinic. i know we are not talking much about that in your report. but a young scientist and american students had dedicated their professional careers to ending genetic diseases like sickle-cell. they are there. they have a cure. the trials have done really well. they are looking at moving forward treatment for als and for folks who have suffered from als who have buried their family, you know the devastation. for those who are struggling with dementia, you know the devastation of the world and

financially that your families have had to go through. this lab in berkeley, california, has the best and brightest scientists, and they are facing, because, again, of this effort to move efficiency, a $37 million cut that will all but halt the research and send the students home. that is not fear mongering. it is fact. for all of the patients, those who are in the operating rooms, sitting outside, waiting for your folks to come out, those folks who are care workers, sitting at home trying to figure out how you're going to make ends meet because you cannot work because your father has devastating dementia, i want to understand what is at play -- want us to understand what is at play. i am not blaming anyone. i am saying we are making bad decisions. yes, we need a more efficacious government, but when you attack the sick, when you attack literally scientists who are going to cure americans, cure

americans, we are lying to the people here. those young people -- i met one young man who has dedicated his life to curing cancer. he is in that lab. he does not know if he is going to be able to continue. america first looks very different than what we are reporting here today about creating an efficacious government. the last thing i will say, and i appreciate knowing a lot about your organization, and while you do not provide direction, necessarily, to government departments, when they have done staff reductions, what your agency has done is guide directors to make those reductions using a process, a process that is concurrent with the valuations, concurrent with making sure there is deep communication, making sure those employees have an exit plan that will not exacerbate homelessness in our communities.

thousands of workers have been laid off with no evaluation. we have not stayed true to our union contracts. we need to create a government that is efficacious and efficient, but this ain't it. thank you so much. i yield my time. >> the chair recognizes mr. fallon from texas. rep. fallon: mr. chair, thank you. we sit here all day and here folks pontificating. it is the same old broken record. i fear it is going to be like this for two years. you hear elon musk and you do here fear mongering and you do hear billionaires, unelected billionaires, unelected oligarchs, blah, blah, blah. fact of the matter is that when i was serving in the air force, i saw many in -- many federal workers that did a fabulous job. they were gold coins for this country.

unfortunately, i saw people probably in a slightly larger number that were a complete waste of taxpayer money. it was just not operating efficiently and they did not have the motivations, and that is why i think even the father of modern progressivism, franklin delano roosevelt, feared and was not a fan of public sector unions. i want to thank you, comptroller general, for your years of service. half a century, dare i say. you had an illustrious career, a very successful one and a decade and a half in your current position. sincerely, thank you. also, you have done significant work with operating inefficiencies in the federal government. i think you could argue with the sense that you were doge before doge was cool, but the concept is not new. long before donald trump ever ran for public office, you were doing your work and looking to get a lot of bang for that taxpayer buck.

that should be bipartisan. it does not seem to be, unfortunately, but i am an eternal optimist and we can hope for a better day tomorrow. do you think, sir, that the federal government did, does, or will operate at maximum efficiency right now? mr. dodaro: it does not. rep. fallon: listen, i've got a company of a couple hundred employees, private sector. we did not operate at maximum efficiency. it would be wonderful if we could, but you cannot. there is no way a federal bureaucracy of millions of people -- what were you finding, 40 billion dollars a year you have saved? mr. dodaro: yes. rep. fallon: maybe you could argue that oversight and accountability works, looking for those efficiencies. and quantifying that and trying to organize it into an effort where we can increase the scale is a good thing for the country. i just went to austin, texas. i was in the legislature for eight years and visited with

some of my colleagues. they were telling us in their professional opinions that these folks have done it -- one of them, mr. chairman, has spent 25 years investigating primarily medicaid fraud. i asked, in your professional opinion, after a quarter-century of doing what you have done, of the $50 billion that texas spends on retirements, but percentage of that is fraud, waste, and abuse? he said it best 10% and at worst probably just north of 20%. in texas alone, we are talking $7.5 billion of money spent by the taxpayers but not getting to the people that needed. you get folks that lie, where they are making much more income than they admit to, or you've got the fraudsters and organize criminals that seal. they are very good at it, very sophisticated. we should embrace it, run toward it and not away from it, and not

play political games or demonize the most successful human being in history in the private sector. i want to ask you also, sir, some of these initiatives that you have with your high-risk list will, i believe, mean congressional action. what specific actions can we realistically take in the next year or two to see a noticeable difference in improvement? mr. dodaro: one is to make permanent the use of the death master file to have social security give it to the treasury department. that is on a pilot basis. it has already saved millions of dollars. it needs to be made permanent. we should not be paying deceased people. it took me years to convince congress to even make that a pilot program. i never thought it would be so hard to stop paying dead people, but apparently it was. rep. fallon: where they all in chicago? mr. dodaro: i think they were spread around. in any event, that is number

one. number two would be to extend the statute of limitations for fraud and the employment insurance program. it is about ready to expire at the five-year mark. congress should do as it did with paycheck protection program and extend it for five more years to make it 10 years. there are hundreds of cases still being investigated that i think need to be -- need to come to a conclusion. dir. patel: is that for these -- rep. fallon: is that for social security? mr. dodaro: unemployment fraud. extend the statute of limitations. make site neutral payments in reality for medicare. if you go to a doctor who is affiliated with a hospital, medicare patient, or if you go to a doctor at a private practice, it costs more for co-pays from the fisheries, cbo's already set out into the next 10 years it would save $153 billion. i've got many other ones that i

could be numerate, but those are three biggies. rep. fallon: thank you for your service. i yield back. >> mr. min? rep. min: thank you for your service. i appreciate your suggestions. as a freshman new to your suggestions, i appreciate the concept. like some of my colleagues, i want to first briefly talk about doge, the department of government efficiency, which is apparently not a department but a temporary organization with all the authorities of a departmental agency but none of the legal requirements that would apply. temporary agencies are limited to specific product -- pacific projects or study. trump made clear that doge's

authority was limited to "data modernization," but as it has been widely reported, doge has far exceeded those statutory and executive order limitations. doge employees have taken over the federal payment system. they have access personal data for any person who has received any check from the federal government. they have frozen federal employees out of their computer systems. they have tried to terminate agencies like that apartment of education. mr. dodaro, i assume you're familiar with the united states constitution. mr. dodaro: i am. >> many of my gop colleagues today were talking about article two of the constitution, but article 1, section 1, states that all legislative powers are reserved to the congress of the united states. article one, section nine gives us authority to approve money. are you aware of any provision that allows the executive branch to unilaterally take away our legislative and appropriations

authority? mr. dodaro: i am not aware of that. rep. min: that's because it does not exist. are you aware of any provision that allows taking away legislative authority? mr. dodaro: i don't think the constitution addresses that. rep. min: it makes clear it is our authority only. what is happening right now with doge is unconstitutional because they are overturning laws that we passed. they are deleting agencies we have funded and created. they are doing so without consultation with congress. i want to make that clear. elon musk has claimed he wanted to eliminate $2 trillion in waste in the federal government. do you believe we will find $2 trillion if we look through the budget? mr. dodaro: not on annual basis. rep. min: i think he is talking annually. mr. dodaro: that is why i say that. no. rep. min: are you aware of the size of the discretionary budget, the focus of this hearing and every effort doge is looking into? mr. dodaro: yes. rep. min: what is that, roughly? mr. dodaro: it is about a third

-- so it is -- rep. min: $900 billion sound about right? mr. dodaro: it is a little more than that i believe. rep. min: less than $2 trillion, to be clear. we can cut every program and we are only a fraction of the way to $2 trillion, right? mr. dodaro: social security is over a trillion, medicaid is over a trillion. interest on debt is over $1 trillion. medicaid is more than halfway there. rep. min: three claiming my time, $2 trillion, i think you are suggesting this, but i want to get to the. we are looking at $2 trillion and are probably only going to get there if we cut social security and medicare, right? mr. dodaro: you would have to get to the big programs. rep. min: do you think there is $2 trillion in waste if we look at medicare, medicaid, and social security?

mr. dodaro: no. rep. min: do you think there is 100 billion dollars in waste? mr. dodaro: let me reclaim my time. -- a line rep. min: let me -- rep. min: let me reclaim my time. we are talking about food from hungry babies, health care for sick veterans, but it also adds over 4.5 trillion dollars in tax cuts. my question to you is math. if you cut $3 trillion in spending but also reduce revenues by 4.5 trillion dollars, does that in resort reduce the national debt? mr. dodaro: according to that scenario, it would increase. rep. min: that is right. i want to get to my last line of questioning. many of my constituents have told me they are concerned that the waste, fraud, abuse, and mismanagement associated with the idea that one person gets to decide so many aspects of the federal budget these days, they are concerned not only that

it is illegal and unconstitutional, but that so many of his decisions seem designed to go after the agencies that have tried to regulate his businesses, his competitors. my last question to you is if an auditor were coming to audit something for you but they were a major investor in one of the companies you were looking at, would you hire them to work on that project? mr. dodaro: no. rep. min: thank you very much. mr. dodaro: we have been asked to and will be looking at the arrangements for doge as it relates to ethics. rep. min: thank you very much, and i appreciate your service. mr. dodaro: thank you. >> the chair now recognizes himself for five minutes. mr. dodaro, but are the worst programs for improper payments over the last year? mr. dodaro: over the last year, it is medicare, medicaid, the earned income tax credit, supplement nutritional assistance program. >> kata care, medicaid, and

snap. the 2025 high risk report, like the previous report, continues to paint an alarming picture of the extent of improper payments, those issues facing medicare and medicaid. i think we agree, and i know the american people agree, that we should not be giving payments improperly. last year, medicaid improperly paid about $50 billion. why do these programs continue to have such massive issues with improper payments year after year? because gao released a report that estimates between 233 billion and 521 billion, half a trillion, was lost annually due to fraud between 2018 and 2020 two, but medicare and medicaid in particular, 100 billion dollars in the last year. why is this happening?

mr. dodaro: i think you have a need for better provider screening, in other words, letting providers in their, and you have a need for better enrollment screening. this has been a consistent problem particularly in the medicaid area. during the pandemic, for three years, everybody who was eligible at the beginning was deemed eligible throughout the end of the national emergency. so i do not even think the recent numbers, as big as they are come are the full amount of improper payments, so there needs to be more rigorous screening and more attention on managed care. chair comer: during covid, when the federal government lost its spine, and that spanned two administrations, people were put on medicaid without proper screening and things like that. supposed to be temporary.

it is supposed to be a temporary safety net. what has happened is it has become an entitlement. one of the things we are proposing in the budget administration bill is not cutting medicare and medicaid, like my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, it is trying to reform medicare and medicaid to where there is no improper payments. we recognize the fact, and you have been writing about this for years, the problem is not getting any better. people gotta medicaid during covid, supposed to be temporarily, but they are still on there. they are not supposed to be on there. hard-working, taxpaying americans have to pay for health insurance, and there are people gaming the system getting on medicare and medicaid. it is who we are looking at in this budget reconciliation bill. that is what president trump and doge are looking at. this is not something we made up. this is not something we pulled

out of the air. you all have been writing about this for years, and we recognize there is a problem, but the fear -- people say why hasn't congress done anything -- this is why, the way they are acting. people know that social security is being scammed. people know that employment is being scammed. people know that in this chamber medicare and medicaid is being scammed. but they wait for one person and it is always a republican to be bold enough to say, we need to look at this and stop these improper payments. we need to stop the waste, front, and abuse and mismanagement. and the democrats go, oh my god, they are going to cut, the republicans are going to cut, and they get their constituents all fired up. they say elon musk is going to steal your social security check. nothing gets done. we are serious about it. president has a mandate. we appreciate the work that you and your staff have done identifying the high-risk list,

but one reason that people in both parties, congress, for numerous congrese,s has refused -- numerous congresses, has refused to look at medicare and medicaid fraud because people would score political points and spook the elderly people that need medicare, the children that need medicaid, the children that need snap. they will not face the reality that people have been added to the rolls that should not be on the roles. there are people who are ineligible. there are providers in all 50 states that are abusing the system. it is going to take someone bold, a congress with a backbone to do something about it. i will conclude by saying this, we don't want to cut benefits for children, don't want to cut benefits for the elderly and the truly needy. we want to look at the system

and get rid of the waste, fraud, and abuse. that is what doge is about. that is what president trump campaigned on. and that is what i hope at least the majority party in here is committed to get his back and try to do that. the american people are fed up. they have lost confidence in government. an overwhelming majority of people approve of what the objectives of doge are, but it is going to be up to congress to get it done. i think we are seeing tonight, during this hearing, there are some people that are going to obstruct and cake and try to score political points, and there are some that are serious, have rolled up their sleeves, and hopefully will get something done. you for your report, and hopefully this congress and this administration will have the backbone to do something about this heist of the american taxpayer dollars. thank you. my time has expired. i now recognize ms. presley.

rep. pressley: thanks to the comptroller general for being here today. you are a great reminder of the waste government benefits people and they are underwear. -- they are unaware. for any elected official, constituent services are our bread-and-butter. before i was elected official i was a consistent -- constituent services advocate. if your grandfather can't get an appointment at the ba or your mom is stuck on hold with the social security administration for hours, you should be angry. we should be fixing it. instead of fixing it, the trump administration turned over the keys to an unelected billionaire, elon musk, and doge

. can you define, so we are operating with the same understanding, can you define government efficiency? mr. dodaro: efficiency is getting the best possible outcome with the least amount of resources. rep. pressley: it is not slashing budgets for the sake of headlines while we cut services that keep people safe, fed and housed. his government about strengthening say -- central services and ensuring tax dollars go to the public good? doge is not here to serve anyone but elon musk. history is important. do you know how the term doge came about? mr. dodaro: not particularly. rep. pressley: it was an internet meme featuring a dog that went viral on reddit and led to the creation of a joke

cryptocurrency. it caught the attention of elon musk. in 2019, he started tweeting about doge, making jokes and using the cryptocurrency for profit. he wasn't interested in government efficiency, all he cared about was making money. the actual creator of doge coin said elon was and always will be a grifter. unquote. i want to enter this article into the record, he called elon musk a grifter who had trouble running basic code. mr. dodaro: without objection. rep. pressley: in 2025, elon musk is using doge to make money, this time instead of pumping up a joke currency for profit he is using a meme inspired agency to launch a hostile takeover of the federal government. doge recklessly fired faa

employees and attacked the agency while musk's business benefits from regulatory rollbacks. doge dismantled a watchdog agency that returned $21 billion to victims of fraud when he heard it was planning to investigate his company. last week, in a moment of stunning incompetence, the administration tried to un-fire hundreds of employees they had to let go the day before. why? because those employees were overseeing our nuclear stockpile. they were managing the bird flu outbreak and providing not nice to have, but essential must have services that all of our constituents rely on. two firing workers and trying to un-fire them sound like government efficiency to you? mr. dodaro: it is not a best

practice. rep. pressley: what kind of efficiency makes people hungrier ? what kind of efficiency makes people poor? what kind of efficiency makes people less safe? if trump and musk want to make government better, they would turn to the actual efficiency experts at the government accountability office but this was never about efficiency. just like the doge meme, the lives of hard-working families are a joke to them. i won't stand for it. my colleagues will not and we will fight for government rooted in real efficiency, that works before everyone, not just for billionaires. i yield back. >> the chair recognizes ms. tully -- reppo totally it is -- rep. t alib: it is ridiculous we are

listening to this report from you about the ways we can make government work better for families but tomorrow, my republican colleagues are going to ignore that. they will ignore all of your thoughtful and investigative, thorough report on how we can serve communities better. it is alarming to me because i don't know if you know this, but our phones have been off the hook of people increasing anxiety, fear of what is going to happen. parents with special needs children who can't imagine medicaid, medicare and health services being cut. another person who has affordable care act says i can't believe they are allowing that to increase by an average of $600. i understand from your report,

some of the biggest challenges in delivering for our families and the people we represent stems from staffing shortages, right? and skill gaps that make it difficult to be effective in delivering disaster assistance, i believe the report said, responding to public health emergencies and even groceries safe to eat. is that correct? mr. dodaro: that is correct. 20 of the 38 areas are on there because of skill gaps and shortages. rep. tlaib: so we don't have enough people? mr. dodaro: in some cases that is true but in most cases it is having the right skills. it is both. rep. tlaib: do you, for me this is, many of my colleagues talk about elon musk is about making more money. i think he just likes experimenting and he is experimenting with us, the american people. it is like an experiment, a game or something of that sort.

one day they turn the lights off in one department, the next day they turn it back on. we are talking head start programs that didn't get access to the portal until this past week. these are folks offering services already, they already render the services and they are trying to get reimbursed by us. do you think, this experiment, the elon musk experiment of indiscriminately firing federal employees working on key issues come up with a make a positive impact addressing some of these life-and-death challenges? mr. dodaro: i think there is a need for more efficiency in government, i want to be clear. rep. tlaib: i agree, they should start with the pentagon budget but ok. mr. dodaro: it is across the board in government. you have to approach it in a more thoughtful, deliberate process. rep. tlaib: don't you think they are hiding behind efficiency? they are saying it is efficiency but it is chaotic. mr. dodaro: it's not my job --

rep. tlaib: think about it. one day they say ok, all of these folks are fired and the next day, you can come back. mr. dodaro: that is not a good practice. i think, the good part about it is they recognize it and brought them back right away. you need to take a more deliberate approach. the thing that i have learned, i have been auditing the federal bureaucracy for 50 years and you need to find out, what is the reason why things are the way they are? before you change it. usually there is a good reason but not often, but you need to know the answer to that question before you start making changes. otherwise you have unintended consequences. rep. tlaib: do you know what they did today? i think it is important. you know what they did today? they let go 28 veteran workers, v.a. in detroit, a veterans

hospital, 28 employees. i said, what did they do? i ask simple questions. what do they do? you know what they did? most of them were the people that worked in cleaning the surgical equipment. do you know that we had an audit of the v.a.? you know about this, right? people died at the john dingell va hospital because we didn't have people cleaning the surgical equipment. yes or no? mr. dodaro: yes. rep. tlaib: so they let the will of these people and you are telling me my veterans will go under a knife and we don't know if someone is cleaning surgical equipment? mr. dodaro: this was a problem. rep. tlaib: how is that efficiency? he is experimenting with the lives of our constituents. you want to come here? he should come here voluntarily. they won't allow us to subpoena him, and answer our questions. what is the reasoning behind you

letting go these folks? essential services, that is not efficiency, that is irresponsible. it is almost negligent. it is chaos. your service is welcomed because we believe, we want to be effective in delivering for our families. we do. this is not the way to do it. i do thank you for your service. it is a long way and it must be frustrating. watching this last few weeks must be unbelievable for you. for us, hearing a residence in tears has been painful so thank you. mr. dodaro: thank you. >> the chair recognizes ms. crockett. rep. crockett: thank you so much. i will pick up where my colleague left off by thank you and -- for your service. i don't really know if they would have been trying to push you out, because it seems like anybody knows what their job is gets pushed out.

congrats on your retirement and i hope you have sunnier days ahead. representative to leave went through -- tlaib went through some of these things are. i think it is downright cruel. you have people that literally don't have a heart. they are telling us that we are going to run the federal government like a business. let me talk to you about the business. and the people allegedly running the business. the federal government is not a business but let me verify. if it was, i don't want to run like the president has run businesses. the president, it is my understanding, has filed bankruptcy six times. we don't have that luxury in america. even when we start to think about elon musk, right now as it relates to tesla, the sales are down. as it relates to x, he has never

made a profit since he bought x. the value of x is 75% lower than it has ever been. if i'm going to look somebody to run a business, i will look for someone who will run one successfully and before people start yelling about, he is a billionaire, when you know the right people they will give you money. you can become a billionaire too. maybe all of us will have that access someday but until then, i want to talk about the fact that congressional republicans, as it has been said, they don't care about government efficiency anymore than they care about programs that constituents rely on. like elon is hiding from this committee, republicans are hiding from their constituents. under the current budget proposal 100 66,000 people in the chairman's district could lose their medicaid benefits including over 70,000 children.

the same for the chairwoman of the doge subcommittee under the current budget proposal, 120,000 people in her district could lose medicaid benefits including 75,000 children. this is what efficiency looks like to republicans. selling out their own constituents to pass tax cuts for their billionaire doughnuts and -- donors and friends. rather than discussing how congress can help make federal employees and agencies more efficient, effective and supported, they are firing probationary federal employees, which again, in my opinion has led to planes falling out of the sky. nonetheless. it is crazy because no one has been more unproductive than the republicans on the oversight committee. nevertheless, of the 38 high risk areas in the 2025 report, more than half are due in part to staffing or skills gaps, which you discussed.

in your testimony to the committee you stated, quote, when we have seen progress on high-risk issues it is typically involved three essential elements, congressional action or oversight, commitment from top leaders at the agencies, and active involvement by the office of management and budget. in your opinion has congress done enough to ensure the indiscriminate purging of federal workforce? does it impede the government from serving the public and achieving desired results? yes or no? . mr. dodaro: i thought before about telling the truth of the whole truth and nothing but the truth. sometimes it is not yes or no. i think congress could be more engaged and proactive in this area. i have always encouraged administrations and the past to consult congress and make changes. many of these things deal with the congress passed and i think congress needs to get more active. rep. crockett: i agree.

we need to do our constitutional duty to conduct oversight so i'm inviting elon or anybody else in doge to come through and we can have a conversation. i'm not aware of any recommendations that really go beyond cutting those services that people need. there hasn't been any talk about cutting any of elon's contracts. not one that i'm aware of. you are aware that elon has been getting money from the federal government for a number of years, correct? mr. dodaro: yes. rep. crockett: it is my understanding he has not made a recommendation to cut any of his money as we are trying to save money and save this country. at the end of the day what i'm going to say is that we have the national highway safety administration open five investigations on tesla for complaints of unexpected break and come a loss of steering control and crashes while cars were in self-driving mode. tesla tried to block at least

two rulings from the national labor relations board punishing elon for tweeting that factory workers would lose stock options if they joined the union. this is a problem. can you at least tell me that you agree, that you understand what a conflict of interest is? mr. dodaro: i am well aware of what a conflict of interest is. we have been asked by congress to take a look and we will. rep. crockett: i appreciate that. i will yield, mr. chair. >> that includes a -- concludes our questioners. i want to thank our witness for your testimony today. thank you for your years of service. i want to thank your staff once again for your input today as well. i objection, all members have five legislative days with them to submit materials and questions for the witnesses which will be forwarded to the witnesses. if there is no further business,

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