off seemingly by an elected person this is not running the government efficiency clearly is from texas i would like eagerly present talk about what is going to do to the deficit mckay i'm from oklahoma and the president to address what is going on with the war when it will be result. >> my name is. [inaudible]. and i would love to hear the president talk about finances, business, they got me. >> him to talk about the economy and have faith in a nations border, the future as far as the war in ukraine where he sees tht

months as far as the economy and were going and things that he has in the plans he has emotion i know he's getting deals but until thus the deals noise he's a future release the next six or eight months in the united states. see spans voices, living democracy unfiltered part of the conversation. back to washington turn on them join now again he was a former irs commissioner biden and ministration and welcome series good to be here. >> you part of a group of former virus commissioners court warning the trump administration playoffs of irs employees, that would be a dangerous thing but what prompted that. >> turns out, the former commissioners and virus commissioners going back tome

ronald reagan and we connect with each other and they were very supportive me was a commission going to senate confirmation and when there's news about the irs, we think that we can help, explain was going on with members of the public, you so you heard about the layoffs stood the stated purpose on the layoffs for cost efficiency, we pushed ahead we said health can this be cost efficiency on the irs the primary agency responsible collecting virtually the revenue in the receipts of the u.s. government because they would say is loaded agency and you don't need them paying them for the reason. >> i would say that ms. understand history of the irs the fact is already gone through over a decade budget

cuts from 2010 through 2022 naira's budget was cut year over year and inflation and the vast sizeiz 2022 before the reduction act was at its lowest point since the 1970s, in the meantime, population number of viruses from me and growing tax system, an increasing number of employees you have the emergence of challenges including only phone that you would ask also results in texas, when the rs

higher low with the taxes are higher or low in congress decides only the irs is collecting the taxes that are enacted by congress printed right now, about $700 deficit each year and terms as what is owed what is paid. the way is set up is in particular because the understanding members of doge are coming in. basically saying less ask everybody cross-country they h d a mission to cut waste in the organization a pretty.

>> and eclectic the proceedings of those t sales pretty we do nt think the words of the directors would be happy with that of the shareholders would be happy about that, we think that the only people celebrating that would bee the company competitors. so the point, just one more about this question of validity agency one of the things the former commissioners absolutely supportive modernizing. moving more to technology solutions over time. we want a path with inflation reduction act resources, that had good momentum in getting the organizationrg ready for automation it ready for more a.i. and solutions potentially would allow a smaller step so if we not able to modernize this

for years and the biden administration. >> well there were more updates to which the taxpayers can file online two years i was there in the previous 20 years irs really only had a two-year window to modernize because inflation reduction out finally provided funds and local modernizing you can not invest in technology and when their flight concern inflation reduction act was passed, they were depleted of resources and they had record low customer service on the phones low in the walk-in centers record high paperback lawson every level because that the budget resource finally caught up with organizations around 2021 and 2022 of the opportunity o to modernize becae plugging holes in the dam through just try to stay afloat

andd finally, we get the inflation reduction act coming to modernize the journey started with that modernization was intended to do was to help with taxpayers and make it easier so that they can more solutions on the website so they do not have to calling strapless time by the taxpayers refers want to show the people some federal news for the iris going back to 1980 through 2024 and this is kind of the curb and you see very low dips v here in the first trump ministration at what there smack what this was about the ongoing budget cut. the growth in the number of people leavingrn government retirement the formsan of attrition. you don't have the funds coming cannot hire nine those we been talking about for decades for the fact maybe boom generation

eligible for retirement after 2010 so were in the heart of it right now we are in the heart of a lot of baby boomers retiring that was clearly the heart of the attack during that first trump ministration and if you believe you don't have a budget to hire behind them coming this people doesn't mean irs agent blocking a door to give her money means a lot of the people need help toor answer the phones and helpon with that texas shoud be singing sitting walk-in centers have that appointment for you coming to be processing your tax returns into refined out to you soon these were 7000 people are they processing returns will have an impact on this tax season in texas right now i don't think all of o the details are exactly who was laid off. it was the focus on probationary employees which are relatively new ones and i understand that

wasye the employees the right of the collections part of the irs present by called it services part but nearly 7000 people in the middle of filing season it is hard to imagine all parts of the operation could be disrupted and we all fact the filing season blessing what to do take increased risk take on additional operational complexities things steady as she goes and that layoff the middle of filing season, a lot of risk for access and we would have preferred to hollywood don't think that layoffs are appropriate especially in a cost efficiencyec because we think of the interest of the american government solvency, we should be collecting funding the government notbe leaving them on the table we also want a fair

tax system like the irs capacity to collect taxes that shifts the burden tech system those who play by the rules that for those ship ship from those who don't play by the rules to those who do they are carrying more the load so just a physical sense of validity issue in white uncle after elect it if you turn to prove the bottom line. and you learn t the first day of class, they want the motives mean when the company an organization bottom line pretty well made up of costs and revenue, both pieces together and some cutting the cost make sense trying to improve the bottom line just trying to lease maintain increased revenue to improve the bottom line is so accounts receivable such a critical part governments bottom line is depleting the ability to collect

receipts will do damage to our bottom line you would like to join the conversation the former irs commissioner and you can do so like our democrats to 274880002028001 for republicans in two oh 27,488,002 for independence want to play a portion confirmation hearing scott and he was asked about the tax collection enforcement is toward the wealthy here's an exchange. >> we've seen it because we don't have the resources for after the wealthy and that people use the term tax credit -underscore there the one the audits and the like i want to see this position so many make it commitment to make that will have the resources to go after the wealthy taxis who have this unique kind of system and i would acknowledge your point out certain links what be a challenge years ahead with the

a.i. technologies but were still going to need resources to report that if confirmed, welcome back to you plan for upping selections. >> on the wealthy taxis he met will you seem to believe that the wealthy chief but i think across the entire income spectrum so you say the wealthy have the special cachet and out if there is some large mother load there, that of figure out how to correct that out whether it is through a.i. or some other means, that i will commit to coming back to you soon equity think about. >> well when i was at the irs here's what is learned, i do not believe the wealthy cheat more than anyone else. i think there are many wealthy

individuals large corporations and large public simply by the rules i think the same individuals mother rules, whether to be accountability for those who do not especially cfo or ceo of a major company i'm not going tond go to sleep if i come up in the supply by the rules, on another my competitors being held accountable to play by the rules and otherwise so the fear of marketplace and here is why widen thinks is so important in my opinion, hit is that when you underinvest in the irs new basically single really care that much about science or subject matter expertise or staff size, will going have a smaller less impactful and less effective irs and is hard for the irs, to determine with the taxi patient is occurring and makes it harder to determine where there's tax invasion in complex situations i look, the other checks mayor going to work i guess my commute taxes pretty

simple but imagine a company that's operating all around the world and many tax jurisdictions and subsidiaries on subsidiaries and all kinds of organizational complexities and there are tax returns are sometimes thousands of not hundreds of thousands of pages long. it's very difficult to understand no situations with the balance is versus what is being paid as of the ideas to invest in irs the not only has the ability to find the balance and the simple taxpayer working on small business but also invested in irs again. with the balance due in the complicated largest organizations in the world and weti don't invest in that capacy company do not have a fair texas because the artist crazily determine your balance is a small business for middle

thoughts. very wealthy person will be cheap but if you do not have an irs that has the capacity to find out that is happening what is the audit people there playing by the rules large corporations again the large corporation yes but he wanted irs capacity of literacy with the invasion is so they can audit them and not you i would say yes my wrist is better capacity to hold your competitors will make sure there playing by the rules just like you, i would say yes and this would him inye irs that you are investingve in, healthy tech system will taxes are unpopular i get that is commissioner and alsoat is absolutely opportunity for more efficiency and inen the irs the flight efforts in looking that predict what we are suggesting is to something big due to the filing greater risk moment

but also if you're going tech cost efficiency irs recognizes budget trajectories been on pretty much out of them on just a few years ago before the new resources came in the name of cost efficiency, delta discount revenue receipts because cost efficiency is a bottom-line u.s. government is not just about cutting the cost it is about revenue and receipts and we should not raise taxes are lower taxes. as our irs commissioner, what i say this collected taxes. >> i would ask you for the privacy tax records this washington post of said that doge president check federal benefit payments against irs tax records and officials with elon musk groups they want to search for fraud and they brought irs tax information to the parts of the government and how safe are

irs tax records and does doge re: have them is such an important question if you allow want to talk a little bit about question of fraud what is fraud and how do you stop it no address your question about the data because been working on this question of fraud in payments from virtually my entire career and one thing of learned i do have a monopoly in the right answer, not here to say i i do have lessons learned as you getting ready to make it to contractor to an individual, 99 time 700 number for me does not know whether this is going be fraud or ever and you do know how many would stop the payment and they do stop payment, when they know, but in most cases, you don't know whether is fraud or error in order to figure it out, before the payment goes

out, typically two things that need to have at it when you need to gather more information about the precipitate need to know more about them for example what is the asset totally have because i could to be eligible criteria for eligibility and you needed to another household size because that might also be in eligibility criteria for eligibility and all kinds of data would have your determine whether this is the right payment is so you ask for more data in the other things you needed more time i need to get this data internet need to do this closely determine the payment should go outside two things happen when you try to steer and one coming increase the i burden on the american people have the government collecting more information about them needing more time between the payment because you're doing all of this checking how the years, the government been attacking fraud in error is made substantial progress that should be built on some work to do, these two issues come up, were to address

the issue getting more data from the public and take more time this pushback, the government taking but we didn't want them to know was in my bank account and i don't want them to know going inside my household i don't want that my government said we will collect that information since high risk of fraud in error i don't want this to go a poem hospital provided don't want to to take away room is a medicare reverse me know me know pay me now the tension plays out y and you end up in a situation where you balance burden, speed, with their here's the example of that in the question, and 13 said we gotta stop the running into the same thing i ran into need more information how we going to get the information away, the irs has information we can tell you but your household size is maybe relevant criteria before you get this education benefit or

agriculture benefit in this irs information and now, you say the taxpayer doing what the irs pretty my information to these agencies since big brother -ish tomato i get the some people to like it will is a whole lot code section 61 of three the internal revenue thatse determines when d if the irs which share information with another federal agency for this very purpose in congress is been pretty stubborn and changing 61 of three and it takes years and years and years of loving and i remember when i first started in government and that 1990s, we were trying to get the irs wasn't at the iris of at the time of his feet trying to chair the taxpayer information the department of education to validate whether these programs where i'm an improper or not it welcome they finally for that authority i think is maybe close to 20 years

later, he finally went through homeless finally enacted it so i think was going on right now is god is running into the same thing out into what i try to address publics i need more information. but congress and only congress historically has decided it whether the irs can share information with other agencies to endless talk to the caller's right will start with leonard and restitution and good morning.ac >> good morning anyone thank you i'm really to hear you talk about well i didn't know the number but the data privacy something obviously super important to my question though is was there some study and brain economists say that the irs maybe good part of the education is one of the best returns on investment when you like dollars spent auditing these complex tax entities brought back something like $45 for education every dollar spent as much in

the future investment people since my question do you think you. >> yes it's a great question i think the first question too be asked shouldn't we cut accounts receivable and receivable the reality is that every person in the irs is doing these collections earns for the americanic taxpayer close to $6f revenue for every 1 dollar we spent on the salary so it is a goodho deal and if you try to be efficient come he would add more. the point is well taken that you can save money by sharing irs datao to other federal agencies because you cut down on fraud in error if you give is agencies more information to detect fraud here are so yes, from a quantitative dollars standpoint you would save money there's a cost into it with respect that privacy because it should be limited to me give you a good

example of this to the color, one of the biggest error rate programs and all government has the largest raytheon income tax credit strength you are irs and is a very important program and a poverty program and well researched huge impact in reducing poverty in her but has a really high error rate in one of the recent has a high error rate is because very difficult to determine eligibility including one of the primary eligibility criteria is that you live the defendant child that you're claiming for six months or more when the irs is a so we do not know where the child is living we do not have information and now we could essentially limit know and all error in the program if we had a national childhood residency database real-time information and imagine holy this would never fly something out played out and imagine a world which

each parent despite their child in the morning so i come out the next morning so that we know what the irs every child in america with the work and if he knew that we could count with they've actually live thehe pern claiming and we would never even propose that because it is so invasive and such violation of our values in this country pray to if we fell short of that, it would not know where these children's living we will risk our this for the rest of the other solution south answer to this color is the balance point between using fraud in their preserving our values around privacy government overreach and i think that is so important. >> in pines florida, republican. >> goodn. morning and can you hr mewe okay go ahead nelson. >> okay, all due respect, present thank you for your service to the country however,

i would like to point out that even the internal revenue service has its own waste had problems in regard to trying to balance the budget ten try to ensure that the funds paid to the irs are used appropriately and the trump ministration has to start somewhere think it is done a good job up until now and trying to deal with the federal deficit that we have any do my own taxes. i'm in my mid- 70s and i would never file online because of the problem of identity theft. that's one thing. and also i have made errors in the past and it has been

corrected timely manner by the irs and so as best as i can see, they're doing pretty good job as far asb i'm concerned i would also like to point out that in regards to the people who are trying to have a fear system 50 percent of the population does not pay income tax at all. it's just a matter of time where the united states would have h o look at another method of collectingng tax revenue rather than income tax might want to consider going to tour sales federal tax that would allow everyone to our winter hey there fair share of texas and not just the middle class that pay too much taxes as it is and your

comments. >> okay and really appreciate the question for small personally i have completely great there's absolutely inefficiency in the irs that can be brought out and i would propose that i think with the trump administration what they want to do, is to modernize the irs inn a way that is automated and less reliant on the employees this reasonable thing to have. and now when and how they do that is the question. and think about the irs as an assembly line and there's a lot coming into the lock going out and what is coming in on the tax returns and correspondence and phone calls and people in the market sinners, is welcoming and with swing underpayments and refunds in credit that's pretty was also coming in is a

remittance lori payments on people's taxes pretty think the idea is to make that far more automated and hapless people managing the assembly line andnd the answer is yes and i would argue rougher their last two years the biden administration, important progress has been made to the trump ministration can build on to further automate the summary line and for the reduce the need for people to manage were not ready yet if you pull people off the assembly line to quickly, you and up with that clocks in messiness the messiness' for people like you is going to that you can't get through to the phone if you make an honest mistake was when her neighbor was kind of an issue that they need to see an irs person in a market center to really go over something is been shuttered or closed. the more efficient irises the

right goal how and when in my opinion them offering on the show elsewhere, is this idea downsizing the workforce and replacing of technology is reasonable one is when and how versus this vision related to that, if you speakut the virusompletely modernizing be for the emerging public is company mother myself my stepdad andng something only elderly person does not have a cell phone or computer or the internet fourthly come i have believed thus by progress needs to go slow in related to theft, is the question about why we are not having to usen the price gouging products to file the taxes from colin in baltimore. >> is a great question. for small guess, well as a commissioner i interacted with

other commissioners run the world and some other tax jurisdictions have gone completely to computers and require all citizens regardless of their situation, to file electronically that is not us the u.s. as commissioner you following file filing electronically in selecting direct deposits is the quickest way to get your return processing to get your refund to do it is know your stomach you get to refunded under weeks. we were successful in doing that and that not everybody wants to file electronically has the capacity something called the digital divide and whether that is people who do not have access to technology or people who do not have access to high-speed internet, want to make sure again that is fair new meeting that taxpayers where they are in for that reason, the irs should have a set of menu options printed here which can you file this is to your second question

about filing online with the irs and i was there we launched file and not intended to replace the other options and intended it to add a new option to the menu because taxpayers like you from going to i file online electronically, why do have to always with the software vendor even if it's free even if i qualify for the preprogram, electronically online with the irs can i have that of the middle and we did this week make that option available and very controversial and had scratcher why should be controversial because we weren't denying but you do notot have to do this for you so you can opt in or opt out. and o i agree and i think the me options thes better. >> wiper democrats in washington dc. >> hello, i would like to know

more the 7 billion-dollar difference between taxes owed in taxes paid couple of questions, percentage of that is corporate versus personal income taxes and muscle two groups, how much of it is coming from large corporations versus small businesses or large income earners versus smaller middle-classdl income earners ad thirdly come overhi the main reasons that this water errors taken place and is a fraud is illegal andno is it intentionalo not pay their taxes and therefore they can be charged with a crime recent error and when errors are be made in a much of it is simply do to the enormous complexity of it and even for us the individual protects payers, it's very complicated with the questions i don't really understand and that causes just frustration and numerous thank you.

>> really important question like every here come the irs publishes what is called the tax gap. and as much detail as we can assess around makes up that tax gap and pretty pretty fluid it distributions runaway people at every income level is small businesses and large businesses and we have multi national corporations and complex partnerships the more simple partnerships and all with a balance higher than then what they're paying and then within that, there's the complexity of some time and it verse income is sometimes just because of the weight of how complex are tax farmers lazar and people often make promises andon therefore, e pain less than they actually low there are people out there that

are not only evading taxes but also actively perpetrating a fraud. and so the answer to your question is that there is in every level i would say come there is a lot of money left on the table in terms of films paid for every taxpayer type and the focus the democrats for example have had on the large corporations partnership the wealthy from my vantage point there's certainly a political argument can be made that was never my vantage point. my vantage point as i mentioned in response to the movie showed me is when the irs is not getting invested we lose the capacity to figure out when the fraud is amongst the wealthiest balance due because of how

quickly our economy is reconstructing the self digital economy things like uber and paypal and all of the activities moved in these direction because of the globalization and the fact that increasing number of companies are offering writing selling their goods and services in different tax jurisdictions. the fact that these counties are not completely virtual and so i think workers down in france for inorganics bring africa pretty might be headquartered in the u.s. the selling business services and interacting electronic way. therefore, i'm not as confident as i used to be and we've actually captured the tax app between balance doing balance paid. but thise is like it is so important in making an investment they are is because of such high returns for $700 in

the year, and is not new taxes they're getting raise sure the people are paying with the help not pay more. >> republican line lance, you are next. >> i feel lucky. you play the lottery i'll be honest about it. but i am retired and i've taken my paid for 1099 i still work and think donald trump and i'm going to — of the irs and is one thing but i think it really hurts the irs and thousands of victims and ammunition and to go

after americans people taxpayers, new houses. [inaudible]. and really is a shame. but it so you almost cry while ago and i guess, on my shoes and walk a mile in my shoes and then you know how to cry. >> okay and so on irs ammunition. >> okay the asking the question is important to understand what the facts are so, less than 3 percent of the entire irs is armed and that's our criminal division and in breaking up organized crime and even trafficking drug trafficking counterterrorism and what happened is law-enforcement and

going after some type of tubal criminal actor that is the danger to the children doing really really bad things and other law enforcement best way the criminal history text times that is just how we are playing chess game and so person with the irs the irs has jurisdiction to address the taxes that means serving search warrants and arresting his people to get this not your everyday citizens not grandma's current boss maybe you know. [inaudible]. no harm knocking on anybody's door but is really about these criminal criminal enterprise and

the stockpiles under the rule in order to be armed agent u.s. government you need a lot of training and so virtually, on the ammunition that the irs houses for training on the gun ranges for the stockpiles are so quite a number of times, irs agent a weapon socially been discharged that you can count one-handed you hear a lot more about it inco the news. of the irs agents you know and discharging the gun any way shape or form that was inappropriate and it is an absolutely never or exceedingly rare occurrence and i can assure you that the small number less than 3 percent that actually have a gun need it because her going into very dangerous situations, they are he rose there going into situations with criminals and organize crime

traffickers human traffickers were also going to serve warrants going to make arrest and proud to have worked with them. >> them left marietta georgia protects what about the report of irs employees being highest violators in a filing annual tax returns and are they losing their jobs and penalize like ordinary taxpayers so guess is the really important question one of the things about working at the irs is your three tax check essentially if you sign up to the irs, since what your signing up to be audited and so truly kind of scrutinizes a very detailed level you taxes and as a result, we have a really good information about our employees and our employees argument and their moms and dads and little league coaches and people of faith and we have everyone every walk of life in the irs.

people make mistakes and the differences, going through those mistakes are surface and we reported publicly no secrets here it is transparent and we give that information to oversight entities the reported publicly and if you have to pay your taxes, you are either terminated from employment when you areom put on suspension or depending upon the circumstances, your given an opportunity to make it right. you know, and we give people grace if they make a mistake and if they pay up quickly, they're disciplined and they come back to work. >> any taxpayer would. >> yes any taxpayer would have the grace and again, i'm never going to sit here and claim that i am perfect or any of the iris in place of the very human like everyone out there know your colors but they are doing an important function their choosing public service mission and i would hope that as we

think about the irs employees, who are doingop their jobs to dc by the way when the 98 percent of irs employees outside of dc in cities and suburbs and small towns all across america that we understand that if they get laid off this not celebrate that, this not demonize people go to work every day chosen unpopular profession and passionate about it and that it effectively for many years. >> when people in texas to mckay going had. >> yes so i want to know my wife and 2018 she died. taxpayers. [inaudible].

you my number in the book me for $4000 i don't have no $4000. and i cannot put the texan because i had a stroke and can you help me get these things off of me and thank you. >> solo, i've heard from taxpayers and commissioner and even censored from taxpayers like you, who are struggling with it tax debt. there programs that the irs installment agreements that can be set up and we always have the irs try to train our employees to have empathy and to look for solutions pretty the taxpayers that ran financial dire straits.

in our taxes his way to complex also leads people like you in a situation where you cannot figure out heads or tails that what you are supposed to do this why it is so important to work with congress to be sure our taxes have spared and also to invest in irs that they know and is trained to help people like bill and effectively as possible. set outcome would it be built cannot get through to the irs or to a trained agent here knows all of the different levers we have to help people like bill and the idea is not to harm people like bill and when we hear stories like this it breaks our hearts. you posted it on my client will i do get emotional when i talk to people like bill specifically or who are struggling and i want the irs well-equipped to help the people like him there.

>> okay former irs commissioner and the biden administration printed any think you for joining us. ♪ ♪♪ democracy is not just an idea it is a process shaped by leaders, elected to the highest office and entrusted it to a select few regarding the basic principles and is were debates unfold decisions are made in the nations court started it and democracy in real time. this is your government at work. this is cspan, giving you your democracy unfiltered. >> i'm next house republican leaders speak to reporters ahead of president trump's address to congress this evening. >> i know you guys are trying to hide to be behind here. [laughter] >> yes, i know i