subordinate. standing ready to execute the orders of his commander in chief. arkansas he insisted was the most racially progressive state in the south and the crisis at little rock could be swiftly ended if the president would curb the dictorial excess of herbert brownell and department of justice investigators. what we need, faubsus said, a cooling off period, for determination to wane. this is exactly what eisenhower wanted to hear. fit perfectly with his misgivings with over brown, fit perfectly with the cherished policy of moderation. so it was under the sustained assault of fuabus'tic blend of down home probation lichl, subserve yens and serve the southern civility, eisenhower heard what he wanted to hear, and he believed the meeting was

a complete success. the governor, he said, is appreciative. ial allowed him to beat an honorable retreat. he will go home now and tell the national guard to maintain order and protect the black children when they arrive at central high. within hours after departing the conference, faubus informed congressman hayes that he had absolutely no intention of issuing any statement announcing new orders for the guard. upon learning of faubus' reversal the president realized he had been duped. the famous eisenhower temper boiled to the surface but as a clear example of the immense character of the man, he admitted what happened and he placed the first call to his attorney general who advised him against meeting faubus in the first place, he were write, brownell, faubus broke his word. i could tell he was furious,

says brownell. he was a military commander in chief dealing with faubus, a subordinate let him down in the midst of battle. eight black school children entered central high. by midmorning 1,000 whites gathered outside the school. the speed by which the random mob materialized and the fact it was led by one of faubus' bird-hunting cronies, leads you to believe it wasn't spontaneous. blacks around the school there were attacked and beaten. at noon, little rock mayor wilson mann ordered withdrawal of the black students for their own safety. the integration of central high had lasted all of three hours. eisenhower now knew his policy of moderation had failed and to the man's credit, he readily accepted that it had failed and he moved to a new means of maintaining order and

implementing the court's directive. he now understood only one course of action remained open to him and his response was both swift and decisive. in my career, he told brownell, i have learned that if you have to use force, use overwhelming force and save lives thereby. how's this for overwhelming force? he called the secretary of the army at 12:08 p.m. secretary of the army issued the orders. and two hours later, they had wheels up on the first aircraft. headed for the municipal airport. the black students would henceforth, tend school under protection of the paratroopers of the battle group. how then are we to aset eisenhower in this crisis?

on one hand evidence strongly suggests the deployment of federal troops might have avoided what happened there. if only eisenhower had demonstrated resolve early in the crisis. instead he clung tenaciously to his policy of moderation throughout the crisis. hoping that restraint and word, indeed, would lead to a solution without confrontation. further, his silence in supporting the court's decision and the morality of segregation spoke volumes. and his lack of active support for the federal courts in general before the courts in crisis encouraged lawlessness to those who sought to defy them. that said, as soon as he realized that his policy had failed, he readily admitted his mistake and implemented a very different policy.

a policy that resulted in success. so, begin -- i'll end where i began. how do you get right with ike? >> thank you to our panelists. we have about 20 minutes now for questions. and i believe our microphone is over here, so if people have questions, if you would come over to the microphone. is that okay? as moderator, i'm going to take the first shots, exerting my privileges today. and i would like to ask the panelists, what does eisenhower's performance on civil rights tell us about his strengths and his weaknesses as a leader.

>> the next time i'm asked that i think i'm going to recount dr. sanders' presentation. his -- having been enlightened, his strength of a leader was the ability to be nimble to the situation. dr. sanders mentioned, for example, governor burns from south carolina who clearly had been in addition to being a political supporter, someone on whom president eisenhower depended for a number of things when it came to political guidance and advice. this is a governor who was popular in his own state in south carolina, who had his finger on the pulse of other politicians in the region. it's a governor -- governor burns was fueling this notion that to overstep with presidential authority risk of

such a backlash in the southern states that schools would close. that basically southern states would create segregated schools, provide funding for families who couldn't afford to send their kids there, but there was a very real possibility of this happening. so, the ability of president eisenhower to make adjustments in his posture, as dr. sanders so carefully outlined, i think is important to keep in mind with that context. in other words, he believed in a policy of moderation in part because it was very clear to him that there would be this backlash if there was an overstepping. and i'm a d.c./virginia resident. virginia was among the leaders among the massive resistance movement. this was actually happening in

virginia. this was not something a theoretical risk trying to balance on one side of this ledger. this is something he was very much aware of, occurring just a few miles away, as close as arlington, virginia, which is the washington, d.c. suburbs. so his ability to read these situations, i think, is a major strength. i'm not sure the challenges the country continues to face. i think i punted half the question but that's my attempt. >> i would say first that i have an enhanced appreciation for eisenhower based on mr. marshall's talk and what he was doing -- i mean, i've done some considerable reading on this but i've never run across the appointments and so forth. i've never run across that. so, i have an enhanced appreciation. i'll tell you another reason --

obviously, i'll go ahead and get my negative out of the way right up front. he had herbert brownell in the cabinet, who was a product of that bustling metropolis of peru, nebraska. he was graduated from law school, been in the boardrooms of east, all that. ike picked him for a reason. his savvy of human nature. and how to get things done. and yet when brownell said from the very first, you do not -- adam was was telling ike to meet. brownell was saying, no, don't meet this guy. nothing good is going to come from you meeting this guy. he's going to use you. he didn't listen to brownell, right? he was going to follow that policy of moderation right through to the very end. so, in failing to begin a modification before the whole thing blew up, i would say that's a weakness. now, strength, along with the ones that i recounted here, it is very easy, by the way, for me to sit here and, you know, poke

at ike. i mean, isn't it? yeah, sure is, right? but a strength, i would say, is once the man made up his mind, as he said, overwhelming force, now, just right quickly, let me tell you a little caveat here. '62 we went through this in meredith in ole miss. president kennedy and john kennedy came up with a strategy. it was a complete disaster for eisenhower. we can do this with federal marshals. what they didn't figure on is how many federal marshals, so they started pulling guys from everywhere, prison guards, parking lot security people and giving them a federal marshal's badge. no weapons. sending them down to oxford. we're going to do this with all civilian people. and then bobby and ross barnett worked out this elaborate ballet by when they were going -- barn net has a telephone conversation. i've heard it. you have to pull your guns. bobby kennedy says, wait, we're not going to -- oeshg, you have

to pull your guns. yes, yes. there has to be eight of you to move me out of the door, that kind of thing. they refused to send in sufficient force. as a result, by midnight that night, those poor men were bottled up on ole miss' campus. nicholas sent a message, send troops or by morning we'll all be dead. now, to his credit, eisenhowered very well then, if that is the way the game is going to be played, i can play that game. you had your chance. >> the james meredith episode reminds me of something. i'll take a stab -- i wouldn't call it a weakness but maybe a sign of the times in being old school. i've had experience with a lot

of campaigns most not very memorable, but there -- if you read -- thinking about the james meredith episode reminded me of some sections in july and david eisenhower's recent book "coming home to glory" about eisenhowers returning to gettysburg. there's clearly a lack of any interest in self-promotion in president eisenhower's demeanor. and he clearly bristled during the meredith episode, for example, that on the one hand, he could see that this was fairly predictable but no one at the time seemed to be giving him the credit he deserved. well, now with -- to the 24 hour news cycles and communication directors, you would think in a more modern era surrogates would be addressing the contrast.

but there was no -- there's nothing in the books that suggests that he was either champing at the bit to get out before the cameras to call attention to the contrast, which would have benefitted his legacy or that he was even calling folks together saying, listen, can we get a strike team out to show the contrast? that would have served him well. it was a shortcoming that took a while for people to come to grips with and figure out what actually happened. >> and that's one thing i'd like to follow up with is, you know, commenting on dr. sanders' point that eisenhower was first and last a man of moderation. can you be a leader from that position? so, i'd just like everyone to think about that. i believe we have a question from the audience here? yes.

six, seven, you know, quite a few years after brown versus board. we have a total of three black students at -- about 1600 students even at that time. it was an interesting process of how the zoning went. that said. i feel like i suffered for it. i felt like i was with -- when i went to kansas university after that, i was culture shocked. i didn't know how black people acted. i just knew there was trouble at topeka high, that sort of thing. but i remember the day of blockbusters where people would pay off the realtors not to sell to black people because the perception was, rightly or wrongly, but that the value of your home would go down if a black family moved in. that didn't set right with me

but it was a fact of the times. now, i guess i have a two-part question. i want to address affirmative action for a moment. it's my understanding in the case of several cities, i believe also in topeka where i'm now residing, black students are allowed to -- they have a choice of going to any high school they want within the city 501 district, i'm in favor of. however, that same right is not afforded nonchildren or students of color. affirmative has been a controversial subject. i would like to get some feedback from you and see what you think of it. one other note, i find it ironic that, you know, blacks served with distinction during the civil war , with white officers.

they did a lot of bribing. that said, i would like to hear your thoughts on that. just basically do you think the time for affirmative action is here. as you criticize -- criticism of eisenhower struck me with this. don't ask don't tell reversal and what a controversy that is. you can imagine the quantum leap he made by integrating the military and the schools and that sort of thing. so i think that he had a bit of basis in terms of a slow but steady. if you had. >> thank you for sharing your experience.

we're similar era in item of schooling and it's fairly recent in the numbers were still off. i share your view the shared experiences can help all of us as we go guard and deal with life's challenges. for me gets to the affirmative action question which is, a, the ideal of a diverse society in education where there are opportunities for individuals to not only enrich themselves and prepare for professional life but also to gain a broader understanding of our collective experiences of society.

i believe educational opportunity programs bring a full breadth of diversity. with particular emphasis on individuals from disadvantaged backgrounds regardless of race. but i think that -- okay. i'm well aware there gets to be a point where different demographic groups start to push up against others. we have, unfortunately, limited opportunities ultimately. but i don't think we're to that

point where we can afford to sort of stop trying to find people to bring diversity in all its forms to our educational opportunities and our economic opportunities. >> my take is the same. i'll simply add, i support affirmative action and i will confess to you, it's primarily a -- my reasons are primarily selfish. i want as much as any american to have as strong an america as we can have. in history we talk about the diversity of the tapestry, right? we go out and try to find every piece of every story. oh we have to talk about women for a little bit, now we have to talk about indians for a little bit. no, no, that's part of the story. you don't have the whole story until you have all of that, right? we don't have a whole nation.

we need everybody. so if they want to bus a deserving child from one part of topeka to another, i say good, good for the black child and good for the white children. the point mr. marshall makes about bumping up against, that's a cause of the lot of the friction, you know. but that's also success. that's what you're hearing out there. is success. when the two of us were kids, no danger of bumping. no danger at all, right? my high school didn't desegregate until 1967, ten years after brown. immediately all the white kids left and went to a trumped up school in the back of somebody's barn and the school went from 100% white to 98% black, just like that, overnight. bump away.

>> i'm autumn fox, i'm an attorney. mr. marshall, you spoke about president eisenhower's judicial appointments and the importance to president eisenhower of the moral fiber of those judges and the impact of those decisions. as a lawyer who appears in front of many courts, it would ask for your comment but it's my opinion that appointments are now based more on political correctness than on moral fiber and courage. and i think your fathers foresaw that when he resigned and said he did not want his seat to become the black seat. he wanted his seat to go to the most qualified judge. the other thing i would ask you to speak to is i think that many citizens don't recognize the impact of judges' decisions on their lives, whether that is a state district court judge or whether it's a federal district court judge or supreme court judge. in the state of kansas, when we

vote, we have retention largely for court of appeals and for the supreme court in the state of kansas. i know many people who vote all yes or all no and know nothing about those judges. when our district court judges are up for retention vote, they really know nothing about them. so, i agree with you whole heartedly about the importance of the appointments. i would like your comments about whether you believe it's still based on moral fiber and courage or political correctness and also to please address as i've tried to do when i speak at public functions the importance of people knowing who our judges are, what they do and how they impact your life. >> one thing that's very

disturbing is there is a near inability to get judges confirmed inspect is something which that started quite a while ago. it started during the presidency of george w. bush and reaching a crescendo with a real inability to get judges confirmed. he received a medal of achievement from president clinton in the '90s. longevity in these positions has its effect. on the issue of political

correctness, as juxtaposed with moral fiber and courage, probably going to get in a little trouble for saying this but i think we have devolved into a situation where there is sort of a first box on the checklist, which is -- i'm not sure i would characterize it as political correctness but there is this need to find nominees who are going to be, in a sense, find the least common denominator because of the lack of inability to get judges confirmed. any kind of blemish in a nominee's record is likely to delay his or her ability to get through a process. it's gotten to the point -- so, if you can find someone who on the one hand is going to have

low negatives, or potential negatives, but nevertheless has the kind of moral fiber and courage we want and expect from our judges, the possibility's still there to thread that needle. it's just become very difficult. frankly, i think there's an unfortunate by-product to that which is why would someone who has thrown themselves into a career doing these kinds of things put themselves through a process where they may be strung out with endless welcome back ground checks and hearings only to find they never get a vote. i've been of the view for quite a while now that one of the other related unfortunate aspects of american politics in recent years has been that president who is gain re-election don't seem to have a lot of time to exercise the

authority they've gotten upon being re-elected. we're not allowing our leaders to be able to fully exercise their authority and judicial appointments is one of them. >> we have time for just one more quick question. we're down to the last minute or so of our program. >> to change my perspectives. however, caring for elderly parents has brought me back to tope topeka, kansas, after 30 years. i'm proud and pleased to say that i work at a school in the shadow of the brown versus board

of education building, the old monroe school building. and it's a magnet school where 30% -- 30-plus percent of our children get to chose whether or not to come there from anywhere, even outside topeka. we're a magnet school that teaches science and fine arts. i'm proud and pleased, as i think i could be as well that we have around 40% black students at our school, 30-plus percent hispanics and work on all the issues still continuously but less and less of them are racial issues. more of them because they're disadvantaged students. i wanted to thank you for all you've brought to your table in informing you and informing us on that. >> bless. bless you. >> well, with that, our time is up today. i would like to thank everyone for coming.

also, if you have another question for our panelists, they can meet and you address some of your concerns. thank you for coming. >> throughout the weekend on c-span 3 watch personal interviews about historic events on oral history. features some of the best known history writers. visit key figures, battles and events during the 150th anniversary of the civil war. visit college classrooms across the country during lectures in history. go behind the scenes at museums and historic sites on american artifacts and the presidency looks at the policies and legacies of past american presidents. view our complete schedule at c-span.org/history and have it e-mailed to you by pressing the c-span alert button. >> american history tv, coming

next we learn about the rich history of baton rouge, louisiana, one of eight southeastern cities we toured last year. we're in a very historic spot in pa ba ton rouge. on the mississippi river. just adjacent to the pentagon barracks. on the spot in the 1770s the british styled a fort here. they called it richmond but earlier it was known as baton rouge because there was a large, red pole here that was a dividing line between the bayou and the homa indians so the french called this place baton rouge and later the british called it richmond. in september 1779 governor gavez from new orleans came up and attacked the fort that was once here at this site and was able to defeat the british and take control of the mississippi river. it was one of the few battles of the american revolution that took place outside of t