if you are a political appointee, you shouldn't be reassigned. if you are in some way culpable in something like fast and furious. i have never accused of you having personal knowledge, this committee has never accused of having personal knowledge. one went on quite a bit about the alternative you knew or should have known. i share that, in fact, justice has to have a bubble-up system that holding people accountable. this committee would hope under our reorganization and organizational side, not our investigation side, that we can continue working with justice so that we can have a comfort level along with the judiciary committees that those systems are put into place so that in the future if something like this happens, we know that, for example, a person signing a wiretap would also be a person who would understand the level of the operation being described

in great detail, and you described it as this thick a document and it often is. i appreciate what you came here to do. this committee is obviously widely divided on details of fast and furious and the letter that followed. i said i'd let you -- you have the last word, so mr. attorney general, you have the last word. >> well, mr. chairman, i would just say that -- >> would the gentleman suspend. 30 seconds, of course. >> i wanted to go back to something he was asking about with regard to mr. winestein. i wanted to make it part of the record of his transcript on page 121 where he says, okay, first of all, let me clear up the confusion that you noted about the pronouns. when i say it's a tricky case given the number of guns, i am talking exclusively about wide receiver. i want to say that. thank you, mr. attorney general. >> as we said, you have the last word mr. attorney general

briefly. >> you and i talked before the hearing began, and i just want to say that you, the ranking member, the members of this committee have treated me fairly with one exception and one glaring exception. i talked about that. the questions have been tough and fair you asked, and i share, you know, what was indicated, a desire to make sure that we have in place mechanisms so that the thing that bring us here today is something we will never have to discuss again. i think there are a variety of things that we can work on as people that are dedicated to the safety of the american people, and i look forward to working with the members of this committee across party lines to reach those kinds of -- successfully reach those kinds of solutions. >> i thank you, general holder, and he we stand adjourned. >> thank you.

first of all, thank you all very much. this is the sixth time that the attorney general has appeared before congress, and there is nothing that we heard today that refutes one sill bell of this report. this report lays it out quite succinctly that the attorney general did not know about these tactics with regard to fast and furious until early 2011. and that this was a bottom-up operation, and failure to communicate helped to cause the problems we see here. we also refer back for the report where we talk about an operation called wide receiver. these kinds of operations started back in 2006. and, again, mr. mccasey, the attorney general back then, was never called to testify, and we find that very interesting

because we want to get to reform. it would seem we would go back to when these kinds of things first started. again, mr. nelson, the head of atf, was not called to testify, and he is the one who has said under oath that he did not inform the attorney general of these tactics with regard to fast and furious, and he said that he didn't even know about it himself. if you listen to the testimony very carefully, you refer back to the report, clearly the attorney general has -- his testimony is consistent with what the report has stated, again, that he did not have knowledge of this. again, we are very pleased with the reforms that the attorney general is bringing about. we plan to work with him to make sure that those reforms come about. now you can hear from my other colleagues. >> go ahead. >> mr. norton.

>> i want to say that unfortunately i think most of this hearing would have bored the american people, because they're looking to see what -- where's the meat? the meat was in the solution. except for questions on our side, there was no hint there was a solution. it was about he said, she said. and 2009, it's just the kind of thing that makes people wonder where they're going. i want to thank the attorney general for these regulations he's issued. the only thing that begins to be a solution is not a statute that is compelled by the gun trafficking we saw here. the reason that the -- that phoenix and that the atf used these tactics is because the u.s. attorney can only bring -- can only prosecute paper violations, whether or not you

filled out the paper whether you brought 1,000 guns, 2,000 guns. no u.s. attorney in his right mind would pursue such a matter. the majority in this house has voted down gun trafficking law and left the atf even after the killing of an atf agent with no remedy for what began under the bush administration and continued under this administration. what has this administration done? it has issued a -- it has issued a regulation only for four of the states which are near the border where these violations going over into mexico most took place where a firearm licensee must provide information whenever two or more guns are

broug bought within five days. so we get a remedy, but it's a regulation we turned around in the next administration and applies only for border states. remember, we're talking about guns that almost brought down an allied nation, mexico. what has the united states done about it? this regulation by the attorney general is a long and short of it and you heard almost none of that here today. the american people up were left in the weeds shaking their heads wondering why we were having this hearing at all, especially when it was the sixth hearing that we're it is redundant and reads at this. >> miss maloney. >> this hearing and investigation has become the vast and curious investigation, and it has shown that they are more interested in the symptoms than what is the cause. we know the problem.

i believe he said that 40,000 people had died in mexico. 60,000 guns in mexico were traced to america? so let's pass the gun law that we have put forward after the last hearing, and let's make it a law. give them a federal crime so that they have the tools to move forward. the attorney general and the administration have implemented two rules, one on the long guns that you have to report on big, big straw purchases and long gun purchases and also on the sentencing and proving the sentencing. let's make gun trafficking a law. he has asked for it. what came out of this hearing that is positive is that chairman issai mentioned he would support an up or down vote on the head of the atf. that's important. no corporation, no congress, no agency can run without someone being in charge.

that's important. he said he would look at the gun trafficking at legislation. let's look at that, too. but what's so frustrating is throughout this hearing everyone showed paperwork, 6,400 sheets, 22 interviews, and not one person connected this to the attorney general. yet, the program started back in 2006 that were three programs and gun running before this attorney general. mccasey was part of it and oversaw the three gun running operations. why isn't he called to be interviewed. let's have a balanced investigation and members of our panel asked for mccasey to come in. he oversaw four of them, and there was a memo that other members of congress put into the record where he was informed and was totally knowledgeable about it. so that's another step. if they're serious about getting

some serious questions answered as opposed to just going after the attorney general, then that's something that can be important. and we really want to get to solutions now. let's paus gun safety laws and move forward to make the zints safer. the point that he made, that the number of murders of law enforcement is going up when crime numbers are going down in our country tells us a whole story. we should really implement them and give them the tools to do the job as the investigators asked for, the agents asked for. >> mr. conley. >> thank you mr. cummings and thank you for your leadership on this issue. the stakes here are very serious. we shouldn't play politics with the tragedy occurring on the southern border. the instability because of drug cartels and unfeathered, free-flowing illicit arms crossing our border into mexico into the hands of drug cartels

is very serious business. we ought to look at whole issue and not trying to simply make cheap political points at the expense of the tragedy with an atf family and at the expense of the security of the american people. you all have some questions, and we have to go vote. let's open it up for the questions. >> any questions? >> i have a question. have you guys heard vocal support from the obama administration for your gun trafficking legislation before the testimony we heard today? was it mentioned in the present state of the union address, and why do you think we're now hearing support for it 37 months into the administration? >> it was not in the state of the union, but when we had our first hearing, there were three things that the agents called for. one was to have the purchase of long guns, the paperwork handed over to agents when people are buying a long -- a lot of straw

purchases of long guns. the administration implemented that by executive order. the second was to increase the sentencing, as the agents testified that day. i don't know if you were at that hearing. they said it's like a traffic violation. it's a paper violation. we don't have any meat behind it. they were basically saying they had no way to go after these criminals except through illegal operations like the gun running. so give them the tools that they asked for. they asked for three things, two have been implemented by the president and his administration. the third requires passage of the legislation in the house of representatives. right now the president is trying to get the tax cut for 160 million working americans. the doctor's fix so people can get their medicare and the extension of the unemployment. so he's got that crisis in front of him right now. i think they have one more week to work that out. right now in my humble opinion we don't have the votes in the

house of representatives for that legislation. >> but, still, the administration out of three things, they've already done two. i think that speaks for itself. >> exactly. >> look. there was repeated support when we've had these hearings. we've always asked about should there be legislation. those representing the administration have always said yes, we should have legislation and that's why we are in this fix in the first place. we have introduced the bill, by the way. >> in response to a question put to him by me today, shouldn't this kind of gun trafficking be a federal offense, his answer was very clear. yes. >> actually, he put it in his testimony. >> yes, sir. >> the next step in this entire investigation, is this pretty much concluded for you? >> i would hope so. i would hope we would move to reform. this is government and oversight reform, and i think we need to move to reform. as my colleagues have said, a

lot of people are dying in mexico. when we took a trip to mexico with mr. isai, the mexican people were begging us to do something to stop the guns from flowing. again, we need to look at reform. i think clearly the attorney general has taken steps. the new acting director, i met with him, and he's really buckling down trying to carry out a lot of things that were mentioned in our report, by the way. >> this is a part-time position for him, though. is that concerning? >> that's because the senate won't confirm a permanent director. i asked him about that, and he said he can handle it and appears to be doing quite well. >> we do need to confirm a director. >> we do need to confirm. all right. >> let's go vote. thank you.

>> they exploer beaumont where the texas oil industry got its start. saturday beginning at noon

eastern on books tv on c-span 2, book bazaar owner and the challenges of running an independent bookstore. although j. lee thompson on teddy roosevelt's expedition to africa and europe. on american history tv on c-span3, the lucas gusher changed the economy of texas and helped usher in the petroleum age. with the roughnecks vice. tour the dixie hotel, an infamous brothel on crockett street. decades of gambling and prostitution and other crime thrived into a 1960 james commission crackdown. beaumont, texas, this weekend on c-span2 and 3. by 2016 according to the imf the world's leading economy will be a communist dictatorship. that's in five years time.

if the imf is right, the guy you elect next november will be the last president of the united states to preside over the world's leading economy. >> columnist and author mark stein has published nine books, his latest "after america" is a "new york times" best seller. he writes the happy warrior column for the national review and he's a frequent guest host on rush limbaugh's show. live sunday on in depth your chance to call, e-mail and tweet with your questions live at noon eastern on book tv on c-span2. >> the president addressed attendees of this year's national prayer breakfast on thursday. in his remarks he said his actions and policies are motivated by jesus' teachings in his work on health care reform and leveling the playing field for everyone. the annual event is hosted by the fellowship foundation, a nonpartisan christian group based in the washington area.

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while we have your attention and focus, so we can keep on schedule, mark and i and many, many others have been working and praying on this remarkable breakfast for months now, and we're all excited to share it with you. we've all had dwo different experiences of what can happen when we bring faith into the world of government and

business. when we loanet's history, even wars, but at other times true faith is a reconciling force of amazing power, a power that can make an entire society better. as ambassador andrew young described last night at the southeastern dinner, he was talking of the civil rights movement, the nonviolent movement that overcame bigotry and hatred in a way that couldn't have been done no other w way. it was done i would say in the spirit of jesus as we said. he we all have somewhat different religious histories. in my faith walk as i studied the life of jesus, it seemded his approach was always to see the people considered to be outsiders or who had withdrawn and to bring them all in. all those lepers and samaritans and disabled people and poor people and folks like the woman at the well, they had been

pushed out or had withdrawn, and jesus brought them in. i think that's the kind of approach we want to embrace in this breakfast and everything that flows out of it. we want to bring everyone in, and to be in harmony with god's will and to share in god's love. >> senators have been meeting in breakfast group for over six decades now. as friends we gather every wednesday the senate is in session to pray, to give you a picture of how long that group has been in existence, the senate breakfast group has met about one time for every person in this room. we come together to pray for each other and work for the senate in the course with the country. once a year, we invite you into the fellowship together to pray for world leaders and especially for a president.

some have heard that things are better in congress and that's true. i think a good place to start is to remember a few simple yet powerful words. love one another as i've loved you. forgive and you will be forgiven. love your enemy and pray for those that persecute you. we don't need a constitutional amendment or congressional reform. we need to start acting better, and jesus gives us the place to start. it's somebody but it's hard. we need to love and pray for people that disagree with us. we hope you love and pray with us this morning in the special time today and when you return home. i have a special -- i have a letter from the special friend of others and he wrotes to the folks attended the national prayer breakfast. i want to give my greetings to each of you this morning.

having been a part of this annual event sponsored by the house and senate prayer group from the beginning is often a speaker. though age and health prevent you from being here in person i'm with you in spirit and you're here in the heart. i want to say a special word of encouragement from the many friends meeting here today across the country and around the world. especially president obama and his wife michelle and vice president joseph biden and his wife jill for whom i pray every day as the scriptures command us to do. the national prayer breakfast is one of the most amazing gathering as z people from most of the world representing every race, color, creed, religion and political affiliation or none come together in the name of jesus to focus on his teachings and follow his example of how to live and love each other. throughout my ministry spanning more than 60 years i lift up the name of jesus to audiences and individuals in many of the countries you rep today against

the backdrop of poll larization in our nation in election year and the tensions across the globe due to war, disease, poverty and other problems. i pray that foundation of unity you embody around the person of jesus may be an example to the world in a catalyst for peace, freedom, and reconciliation as each of us discovers in our own hearts the love and forgiveness he offers to those who seek and turn to him in repentance and faith. may god richly bless your time of fellowship and inspiration this morning, and may the lord give each of you the special sense of the spirit as you pray together and pray in jesus' name signed billy graham. >> thank you. jesus said that if we had faith as small a mustard