all. or as many as he could. and nobody wanted the job. now, i know that because i know that from the file that was in the justice department afterwards, and one day he was at a party of some kind and he met a classmate of mine who was practicing law here in washington and he told him of the frustration, he couldn't get anybody to take the job and he offered it to him. and he said he was working for covington and burlington and he couldn't take the job. well, what was he going to do? and my friend from covington, who was a classmate said, well, there's that fella up in northwestern wisconsin, maybe he'd do it. and so he called me, and i said yes. >> why? >> well, because i wanted to do it. i suppose also i didn't want to be at this point in my life sitting in a rocking chair on a front porch in new richmond, wisconsin, and wondering if i

missed something. >> but your dad did it all his life. wasn't he a lawyer from there? >> yeah, he was good, too. but he was much broader than just new richmond, wisconsin. he was a leader in the wisconsin bar association. he was a counsel for a major company in minneapolis. he was a hell of a good trial lawyer. exceptional. >> so, you're 39 years old, and you came to washington, served the six months with the eisenhower administration. who asked you to stay on and continue as first assistant to the civil rights division assistant attorney general? >> well, brian, nobody asked me. i just worked hard, and i tried to let people know that i liked the job. i didn't talk to newspaper people. i didn't talk to statesmen, elected officials. and robert kennedy -- i became a

good professional friend of robert kennedy's. he was always doing very nice things for me. >> i understand at one time ethel kennedy invited you to go out to the house and go swimming, and you turned it down. you didn't want to partisan, personal, political. >> i don't remember that. i never did go swimming at ethel's house, but i don't remember that. but it is true that i was not partisan. i was -- i was devoted to working for burt and robert kennedy, and i was devoted to doing the best job i could. >> just to fill in the gaps and then i want to show some more video. when did you begin your practice of law in new york, and what kind of practice is it, and are you still active? >> my practice began -- my

practice in law after i came back from working for congressman rodino. and i've been practicing in new york since that time. i'm almost finished. i have one case to argue to the court of appeals end of this month. but i'm not taking any more cases. >> let me ask you a direct question. why did you continue to work until you're now 87 years old? >> well, i like to work. i've always worked. i'm not -- i'm not -- i'm restless when i'm not working. >> so, what are you going to do for the rest of your life? >> well, what i'd like to do is i'd like to organize the papers that i have, the documents i have, in a chronological order that gives somebody who would want -- some historian who wants

to look at them easy access to them. >> going to go back to the 1987 conference of journalists in oxford, mississippi. karl fleming, "newsweek" correspondent has a few things to say about you. let's listen. >> i want to salute john doar. there were a lot of brave people that i saw here, mostly black because they were really on the front lines. but tin jackson that day was th bravest thing i ever saw a human being do. john and i were having lunch. the temperature were 103 degrees. the demonstrations had gone on for several days with no emotional outlet, no way for black people to get this terrible feeling of despair, torment and anger and depression out of their head, and there came this moment out in the middle of the street where there were about 300 mississippi highway patrolmen with repeating rifles poised against down at

the other end of the street, after a formal demonstration. there was this moment when young blacks gathered at the end of the street and began throwing rocks. and we heard this noise from where we were having lunch and jumped up and ran down there, and by the time we got there, certainly there was in the air that absolutely electric feeling that we by this time had all come to recognize. that electric feeling that says something awful is about to happen. because we overheard the head of the mississippi highway patrol, colonel birdsong, say one more rock we're going to open fire on them. and out into this mist between these two groups strode john doar in his shirt leaves. and he walked down in the middle of the street in front of these young angry black guys and said, gentlemen, i'm john doar, i'm here representing the united states government. and i've come to help you.

and i think as someone said last night if there's ever a statue constructed in jackson, mississippi, signifying this movement, it ought to be to john doar. >> colonel birdsong, what do you remember about him? >> he was the commander of the state police. i don't have any clear recollection of anything about him personally. >> when you stepped out and put your hands up, were you at all afraid that the rocks may come towards you? >> well, there were a few rocks skipping along toward me, but they weren't -- there was no shower of rocks. nothing like that. the kids were just getting kind of warmed up, and if in those kind of situations as i think about it, i certainly didn't think about it then, but it's those kind of things that take

some time to get warmed up and it builds. and i don't think that i would ever try to do that twice. but once the unusualness of what happened, to see somebody just walk out in the middle of the street, it stopped. it stopped. and i knew -- i knew some of the black kids, at least i knew one of them, dave denison. i hollered at dave, come on, help me. let's help me get this thing quieted down. >> there's another incident -- i know there are many of them that you were involved in. before i ask you about the next incident. when did you get married? >> in 1947. >> how many children did you

have? >> we have four. >> the story about your fourth child and the naming of the fourth child, if i understand, it went on for several weeks after the fourth child was born when he didn't have a name. >> that's true. what happened was that in 1961 ann was pregnant, and we already had two children, and it was just after the administration came into office, and judge frank johnson called the office. i had never spoken to him before. he's the united states district judge for the middle district of alabama. wonderful man. and he said, i'm setting a voting rights case in macon county down for trial sometime in early march in opa-locka. and i said, well, we'll be

ready. and we knew there was some preparation to be done. and so another lawyer, dave norman, and i went down to tuskegee, alabama, to help review voting records. at that time just while i was there, i got a call and said that ann had delivered our third child. a number of the secretaries in the justice -- the civil rights division and burt's wife violet didn't think it was the right thing that i should be out of town at a time when my wife was about ready to deliver a baby. so, then you go forward two years and ann is pregnant again and it's at the time of birmingham. and i was just embargoed from going out of town. until the baby was born. but birmingham was tough. there was a lot to do.

so, as soon as the baby was born, i went south again. and i probably stayed in the south several weeks or maybe more. i can't remember. so, when i came back to washington and was having a meeting of my colleagues in the civil rights division, burke marshall walked in. he had a cap, hat in his hand, and he came up to my desk and he said, pick a card. and so i reached into the hat and pulled out a name and it was ross barnett doar. the baby had not yet been named. and the other one was james meredith doar, and george wallace doar, and by then have been had a good laugh at that. and when the meeting was over, i walked into his office and i said, we've got the names, burke doar. >> after burke marshall. >> after burke marshall.

>> and you named him john burke doar. >> right. >> where is he today? >> i had breakfast with him, he drove back to his job in hartford, connecticut, he came down for that event last night. >> i want to run some audiotape, a conversation with j. edgar hoover, head of the fbi, and the president, lyndon baines johnson, you had become the assistant attorney general for civil rights, you moved up a notch. >> right. >> and we'll listen to a little bit of this and you can explain to people what they're hearing. >> mr. president -- >> yeah. >> -- i wanted to let you know we found the car. >> yeah. >> now, this is not known. nobody knows this at all. but the car was burned. and we do not know yet whether any bodies are inside of the car because of the intense heat that still is in the area of the car. the license plates on the car are the same that was on the car

that was in philadelphia, mississippi, yesterday. and apparently this is off to the side of the road. it wasn't going toward meridian, but it was going in the opposite direction. now, whether there are any bodies in the car, we won't know until we can get into the car ourselves. we've got agents, of course, on the ground and as soon as we get definite word i'll, of course, get word to you. but i did want you to know apparently what's happened these men have been killed. although, as i say, we can't tell whether anybody's in there in view of the intense heat. >> now, what would make you think they've been killed? >> because of the fact that it is the same car that they were in in philadelphia -- >> that's an audiotape from an oval office between lyndon johnson and j. edgar hoover, the bodies were found on august the 4th, 1964. there was an election coming up. you'd become the assistant attorney general for civil

rights. what's the story about schwerner, cheney, and goodman, and what role do you play? >> well, they were part of what was known as the mississippi summer when bob moses, the student nonvie lolent coordinat committee representative in mississippi organized a summer for white kids from northern colleges would come down and help the black students get people -- get black citizens registered to vote. and mickey schwerner had already been in mississippi, in meridian, and james goodman was part of the summer program, and he -- and then a black man named cheney, the three of them went up to investigate a church burning in noshoba county,

mississippi, and they were stopped by the deputy sheriff and put in jail and then released at night at about 10:00 at a prearranged time. they were stopped again on the highway, taken on the side road, murdered, and then buried in an earthen dam that was being built about 15 miles outside of philadelphia. mr. hoover and the president are talking about the vehicle, the station wagon, that they had driven to philadelphia and had been found about 15 miles on the other side of philadelphia, on the edge of a swamp and been burned. >> what did you do after the bodies were found? did you prosecute? >> yes. of course, the bureau investigated and worked and took almost three years of investigation and grand jury hearings and more grand jury hearings and dismissals and

reinstatements of the indictment before we -- and then we had an incident where there was a jury selected, and then somebody would release the names of the jurors to some of the lawyers of the defendants and so that threw the case over another semester, so to speak. finally the case came to trial in the fall of 1967, 3 years after the murders. >> did you try the case? >> i did. >> did you win? >> well, we got convictions of 7 of the 16 people that were indicted, that were indicted. 2 of the 16 of the jurors hung. the other 9 were not convicted. but this was the first time that white persons were convicted for violent crimes against blacks in mississippi.

it was a -- it was a historic verdict. >> is it the case where the current governor of mississippi, haley barbour, went on to encourage the prosecution later on when one of the men involved were convicted just recently? >> yes. that was a man named killian, a preacher. he's the juror that -- he's the defendant that the juror in the first trial voted 11-1 to convict. and he was tried again in the state court in mississippi. and was convicted. >> there's so much that we could talk about, i hate to keep moving, but i do want to ask you about two judges. you mentioned judge frank johnson earlier. what's the difference between judge frank johnson and judge cox? >> well, about as different as night and day. judge frank johnson was a remarkable trial judge.

he knew what his responsibilities were under the constitution, and every day of his life he met those responsibilities. >> he was white. >> he was white. >> district judge? >> district judge. and he was from northern alabama, of one of the counties that did not succeed 100ari h00 before in the civil war. >> and judge cox? >> he was a good lawyer. he was a good trial judge on things other than civil rights matters. he was awfully -- he was awfully tough on me when i tried my cases -- tried the cases before him in '61, '62, '63. we finally -- i think he came to respect me.

he during the trial of the 16 people in meridian in 1967, he decided, however, in his mind that the trial was going to be fair, and he gave -- he gave the state, the government, you know, a fair trial. he was firm. but, you know, there was -- judge johnson and judge cox were one of a kind guys, but they were different as night and day as far as the kind of guys they were. >> is it fair that the journalist described as looking like gary cooper and talking like jimmy stewart? >> no, it's not fair. >> let me show you some video that we found on youtube. we'll run a little bit of it and it will give you a reminder of something that happened in july

of 1967 when 43 people were killed in detroit. ♪ ♪ that day in july ♪ black day in july ♪ motor city madness has touched the countryside ♪ ♪ and through the smoke you can hear it fire and wide and the children locked inside ♪ ♪ black day in july ♪ black day in july ♪ motor city has spread across the land law and order taken in their hands for the sons of their fathers there's no guarantee at last ♪ ♪ black day in july

♪ black day in july ♪ in the streets of motor city there's a deadly silence fell ♪ ♪ in the bodies stretched upon the ground upon the filthy pavement no reason can be found ♪ ♪ black day in july ♪ black day in july ♪ motor city madness has touched the countryside ♪ ♪ and the people rise in anger and the streets began to fell and there's gunfire around the rooftops and the blood began to spill ♪ ♪ black day in july ♪ in the mansion of the governor something that is known for sure telephone is ringing and they wonder how it's happened and

they really know the reason ♪ ♪ the reason is just the temperature ♪ ♪ black day in july ♪ black day in july ♪ motor city's burning and the flames are running wild ♪ >> that's from -- we found it on youtube. figures involved, lyndon johnson, george romney was governor of michigan, gary cavanaugh, the mayor, this was july of 1967. election coming up a year later. what was your role in this? and what was going on? >> well, in july of '67 on a sunday a riot broke out in detroit, and when i got to the office early monday morning, i was called up at the attorney general's office, and we went

over to the white house and met with the president, and a decision was made that warren christopher and roger wilkins and i would go out to detroit. and to take an account of just what was going on out there. so, i went out to detroit. and i remember getting there in the afternoon. and i was -- it was -- it was discouraging because there were guard people on the street, but there wasn't very much discipline in the guard as far as i could see. and although i didn't foresee what was going to happen that night, and then a bad riot broke out, and before the federal troops could get in and get organized, and put a stop to it. >> what caused it? >> well, i think frustration.

i can't actually remember just what you'd say was the cause. but it was a -- it was -- '67 was a bad year, from the standpoint of disorder in the cities. >> and 43 mostly men, black men, were killed. did blacks kill blacks, or was this a situation with national guard or federal troops killed? >> i can't -- you know, i just can't remember just exactly what the details of that were, so i can't respond to it. >> how did it all shut down eventually? >> well, the city was quadrant off into areas, and the army took charge of a couple of the quadrants and the guard took charge of the others and the police. and i think where the difficulty happened were the areas where

the police and the national guard took charge of, and it just -- it was just -- i was discouraged because here we had struggled, worked hard in the south for seven years and made progress, the voting rights act had passed, and we were beginning to get what we believed was acceptance of the change, and then to come north, back north, and come into a major u.s. city and see the disorder, the rioting, the damage, the deaths, it was -- it made me think that the country had a long way to go at that point. >> why did you leave the administration at the end of '67? >> well, i was -- i was worn out. i had just finished trying the

noshoba case. and this was 7 1/2 years. and i thought it was time to -- that i should move on. >> and it never entered your mind that you ought to talk to a tape recorder before you forgot all those things? >> no, it certainly didn't. it did not. it did not. that would have been the last thing i would have done. >> what was the difference serving in the kennedy administration and serving in lyndon johnson's white house? >> there was -- there was no difference as far as i was concerned and as far as the civil rights issue was concerned. president johnson and the attorney generals that served under him were just as vigorous with respect to the enforcement of the civil rights laws as was robert kennedy and burke marshall and, of course, president kennedy. the situation was different,

however. the situation in 1965, in the spring of 19 -- january of 1965, built on what had been going on for four years from '60 to '65. >> was one administration more political about the civil rights issue than the other? >> you know, that's a hard question to answer, because it was inevitable that now that i'm -- now that i'm older, i think and have thought about it more and i guess more -- less naive, it would be -- i would be silly to say that the politics didn't enter into the thinking of both administrations. for example, president kennedy

carried those southern states of mississippi, alabama, louisiana i think or some of them in the 1960 election. he didn't want to lose those states in '64, i suppose. i know that. from what i've been told. but that didn't deter robert kennedy or burke marshall from really leading their responsibilities with respect to the law. and even before burke was confirmed, robert kennedy had taken personal interest in the first case that we had brought in louisiana, in east carroll parish, and got involved in the first, second, third day after he took office and was on the phone talking with people down in louisiana trying to help one

sharecropper, one -- not a sharecropper. one farmer to get his cotton shipped. and when -- and he sent me down there to see that the gingers in east carroll parish would come before a federal judge and tell the federal judge in a hearing, but a hearing not before the public, but on the record, that, yes, they would gin the cotton. that was our first day. >> i told you we had too much to talk about and not enough time, so i'm going to abruptly change in the last minute and ask you why did you take the job as counsel to peter rodino's watergate committee at the time? what motivated you? >> i had gone up to bedford-stuyvesant in brooklyn to work on a project that robert kennedy had started.

i had been -- robert kennedy had been killed. i felt that i wanted to stay and carry on that project best i could. i was there for six years. i got a phone call one day from the dean of the yale law school. the conversation went like this -- i got one question to ask you, what's that? if you were offered the job to work for peter rodino, would you take it? i said yes. he said, that's all the questions i have. he hung up. i got a call from peter rodino, he come down to -- come down to washington and give the interview. i went down. i was interviewed. we got along. he seemed to like me. at the end of the interview, he said there's one other thing. i have some speeches to write. i understand you can write. i understand you could, and i want to know if you'd be willing to help me draft speeches. i said forget about .