>> and use our website so view recent video from the campaign trail and read latest postings from other viewers from social media sites at c-span.or c-span.org/campaign2012. this is c-span 3 with politics and public affairs throughout the week. american history tv, 48 hours. see our schedule and see past programs at our website. join in the conversation on these social media sites. this week on "the civil war" a discussion on race and the role it played leading up to and during the civil war. and how the war's outcome and immediate aftermath have impacted racial issues ever since. speakers include yale university and franc smith, who heads the african-american civil war memorial and museum.

this two-hour event took place at the john hopkins event for international studies in washington, d.c. >> so, i'd like to just start with david blight, and then we'll take it from there. >> thank you, joe. thank you all for coming. thanks for inviting me on this panel. usually among historians we are fragmented into writing about the south and north, the west, new england, womens, blacks native americans, whomever, so it's great to be on a panel you called species history. i like that. the human species. after all, that's our subject. i've written a great deal about this problem of civil war memory. all i'm going to try to do is place us somewhere and then just to try to trouble the water a little bit about what we actually mean by civil war

memory and why it never has quite healed, perhaps. there's a speech made by african methodist methodist episcopal bishop, boston, 100th anniversary of the by the way of william lloyd garrison so it had a boston, anti-slavery legacy that this gathering was celebrating. 1905, think of the date. this is what the reverend said. i quote him -- we would see the wounds left by the war of the rebellion healed. he might have been causing trouble by calling it the war of the rebellion. anyway, healed, but we would have them healed so effectually that they could not be ready toed upon and made to bleed afresh by inhuman barbaridies.

we would have the wounds of this nation bound up by the hands of those who are friendly to the patient. so that they might not remain a political running sore. we would have the bitter hanories of the war effaced but before the walks before the nation in a new guise. we, too, who have a reunited country but we would have the reunion to include, not only white men north and south, but a union so endearing because so just as to embrace all of our countrymen regardless of section or race. >> i'm not sure if you can follow each one of those by the african-american principle of the african-american protestant

church at that time but he spoke from 40 years of a struggle over race and reunion in america culture. ransom was appealing for healing with justice. define in that little quote the tragedy of what had happened to this question of healing and justice. now, i think what happened in civil war memory, and really generalizing here, is americans faced, if you think -- let's just take the first 50 years after our civil war. forget about the next 100 years for a moment. everyone faced, black or white, north or south, two profound ideas here. one is haeling. and the other was justice. both had to happen. somehow. but given the potency of racial assumptions in power in 19th century america, those two great

aims of healing and justice never developed with any historical balance. now, we know that as kind of an outcome. we haven't always known is why. we might conclude that this imbalance between sectional healing and racial justice was simply a kind of inevitable historical condition after such a bloody transformative war and just celebrate the swiftness of the national reunion and be done with it. but theories of inevitabilitiy, about irrepressable conflicts or reconciliations are never very satisfying, at least to historians. we don't like inevitability because if they are inevitable, you don't need us. human reconciliation is, of course, a wonderful thing. when tragically divided people can unify somehow around ideas

or aspirations or around nationalism or patriotism, whatever binds people after horrifying division, that is to be cherished. but sometimes the past shows us reconciliations that also come with terrible costs. both intentional and often unintentional or unseen. the sectional reunion after so horrible a civil war, as occurred here in this country, was a political triumph of the late 19th and early 20th century, but it was not achieved, perhaps we could say it could not be achieved, without the resubji gags of most of the people the war freed from se centuries of bondage. that is the tragedy. lingering on the margins and sometimes depending on point of view, infesting the heart of american history.

until at least world war i and really beyond. for many whites, essentihealing the war was never the same proposition as doing justice to the 4 million emancipated slaves and their families and descendants. on the other hand, a simple justice, a fair chance to exercise some basic rights, secure access to land or livelihood, were all most blacks demanded out of reconstruction and beyond. they sought no official apologies for slavery. well, here and there. they sought protection, education, human recognition, helping hand. the rub, of course, was that there were so many warring definitions of just what healing was supposed to mean in the south. and the nation's collective psyche, if you want, had never been so shattered. and that is in part what

collective memory is. it is elusive as the notion is, a kind of collective psyche. in the wake of our civil war, there were no truth and reconciliation commissions of any sort through which to process memories either of slavery or of the experience of total war, which of course so many white southerners had faced more than anybody. defeated would it southerners and black former slaves faced each other on the ground, in the south, seeing and knowing the awful chasm between their experiences, often tragically unaware of any path that would somehow lead to their racial reconciliation. yankee and confederate soldiers would however find a smoother path to bonds of some kind of fraternalism and mutual glory, the kind of mutuality of soldiers.

as is always the case, in any society trying to master the most conflicted elements of its past, healing and justice in this country, from our civil war, had to happen in history and through politics. mrnz have had to work through the mention of their civil war the only place we can, in the politics of memory. as long as we have politics of race in the united states, and i don't see it ending at least today, then we're likely to have a politics of civil war memory. in my five minutes that may be left i wanted to borrow, if i can, from robert penn warren as only he could do it. he's the subject of one of the four chapters in this new book.

robert penn warren for those unfamiliar, not only wrote "all the king's men," one of the greatest novels and up with of the greatest civil war novel m novels but he wrote a roughly little book in 1961 called "legacy of the civil war" which was first written as kind of a meditative essay in "life" magazine. it was his own personal so unique and peculiar take on the meaning of the civil war. plenty of things in it we could fuss over today. but he gave us two metaphors. or slogans still useful if we try to think about, especially the north/south side of this equation. one ee called the great alibi and one he called the treasury of virtue. the great alibi was warren's name for the lost cause tradition. at least the way it had become a set of excuses for every

grievance and resentment that animated white southerners. confederacy had only lost the war as the saying always was, because the north had superior numbers and resources. a phrase drawn right from robert e. lee's farewell address. southerners had never fought for slavery, only for home hart, independence, sovereign rights and so on. to they had been occupied during reconstruction, a regime of corruption and -- corruption and misguided attempts by radical republicans to exploit and take over the south. now, the treasury of virtue, on the other hand, which was warren's label for the north, was this idea that after the civil war, the north could

always -- particularly new englanders, and he hated throe, he didn't like emerson either -- they could fall back on the simple fact they this-h won, their cause was righteous, somehow the world had approved the end of slavery, saved the country, reinvented the country. indeed, this treasury of virtue became for northerners a kind of form of yankee pride. it was always there when you needed it to scowl at. warren actually loved skewering both sides of this. i saved some of the worst things he said about the south here and even some of the worst things he said about the north. but he said this about yankees with their treasury of virtue. he said, when one is happy and forgetfulness, facts just get forgotten but that sticks

frankly for the whole of the country and the way we've treated civil war memory. what warren was really after in those two slogans, those two metaphors, great alibi, treasury of virtue, is reminding us, as he did in virtually everything he wrote, brilliantly, i think, everything he wrote, on this subject, is that we think with myth. we think in myths. we live in myths. myths are the stories we tell ourselves we're living. mythins are the great narrative we come to believe in. the stories we want to be part of. the narratives that explain particular -- in particular our present in any given present political position or situation. myth works on different levels. it resides in our imaginations. it floats in the air we breathe. it makes folk music of the stories we inherit at home. and for the northerner, the

treasury of virtue wrote robert penn warren in phrasing that could equally apply to the great alibi, lies open, he said, quote, on a lecturo in some arcane recess of his being ready for his devotional perusal. the civil war has become, and still is, a form of devotion in some ways. devotion to stories, devotion to symbols, devotion to deep, deep forms of myth. for millions of americans. we've made great, great strides, as ed can attest and so can franc. in the history we've written about this memory. but it still sits on that lecturn. i better stop because my 15 minutes are up. i look forward to a discussion of this whole topic.

>> i'm not sure i followed anyone who adhered exactly to the time he or she was -- >> give me five minutes. i'll take it back. i was going to compare the tea party to the successionists. >> i'm ready to go. as you've heard in the introduction, we're both historians. i'm going to speak in somewhat of a different register right now. not really of our voices. i've always admired his deep bass and i have that high lonesome sound. nevertheless, what history might look like in practice. mutual recognition and reconciliation after centuries of conflict and distrust are going to have to be built by hand. the big symbols, big conversations we need, will have to be accompanied by symbols and kgss that are face to face,

one-to-one. we'll need c-span and national newspapers and conferences and communities across the nation to reckon with their own place in the dramas of slavery and war and emancipation in their consequences. now, while no american community is free from implication in those dramas, though many would like to think they are, some places are more implicated than others. my city, of richmond, virginia, would seem to be at the center of that. no matter what else may ever happen in that place, it will always be the former capital of the confederacy, one of the former centers of the domestic slave trade. it will always be at least a former shrine of the lost cause. just as the united states will always be a nation at whose foundation the constitution made a bargain over slavery and whose courts for a century after emancipation obligated segregation. if the nation is to be reconciled it would need places

like richmond, new york, boston, charleston, montgomery, to take responsibility for their own legacies. now, richmond has already stepped up in some heartening ways. though the wrongs of centuries cannot be fixed in a few years, the beginning can come during this centennial when we're fortunate suddenly to have people paying attention. dave and i were commenting on a place such as this, a group such as this, used to dealing with ongoing conflicts in the world, suddenly to find ourselves in the spotlight because an anniversary gives a time for reflection. so, i feel a certain sense of urgency we make the most of this time. so, let me tell you a part of the story of richmond in the last couple of years. let me begin with a confession. when i left charlottesville for richmond in 2007, i did not do the simple matha would have revealed that only four years after 2007 we would be here.

and i was not ready when they came to me and asked if we would host the first event in the nation back in 2009. i barely knew how to do my day job as a new president but i agreed because i felt like, you know, how could richmond shirk that responsibility to step up and deal with that. so after i signed up for that, i looked around nervousl take stock. is really my new hometown and the nation ready for this conversation? the evidence is contradictory, confusing. on one hand, public commemorations and acknowledgment of the role of african-americans in the war is visible in a way unimaginable 50 years before. national parks had been working for decades to tell a full story. the movie "glory" dramatized about the 200,000 african-american who is fought fort union. on the other hand, a recent poll shows more than half of

americans think the sill war was fought over states' rights. the younger people are, the more they are to think that. which is sobering for those who have written history books and taught classes. no historian has argued for a long period of time that was the case but this myth david referred to is doing our thinking for us. the assumption that i'm skeptical of the virtue of the north so therefore it must are been a quest for states' rights for the south. seeing fourth gre textbooks in virginia coming forward and saying that there were many thousands of black confederates because the well, i guess we're making progress in some ways. on the other hand, my goodness, some of these things we saw back 100 years ago or 50 years ago are still with us. now, back in the centennial, subject of david's book, things were a lot clearer. there's not really much doubt about what the centennial in its official manifestations was all

about. it was about reconciliation. it was about healing between north and south at the expense of african-americans. virginia established the most active commission in the united states, spending $1.75 million in richmond. looked like a ufo with a big dome and department store. outside you have what every civil war site needs, a murkry space capsule because it was about the reconciliation is about the cold war. it was about north and south coming together. inside you could get the latest technology. princess phones playing recordings about what you were seeing. somebody just recently gave me a medallion from the centennial. well preserved in some little girl's box in the back of her closet, father told me she was happy for me to have it now that she's grown up. the medallion, nice and hefty says, let us have peace with grant and lee.

and says, consciousness of duty faithfully performed was the theme. doesn't matter what -- whatever that means. that's a lot of letters. consciousness of duty faithfully performed, whatever you may interpret that to mean, north or south. now, despite the investment, the centennial fashioned awkward challenges from the beginning because virginia just fought the fight over mass resistance. closing the schools in the late 1950s rather than have black children and white children go to school together. in all the materials from the centennial from virginia there was no mention of black people at all. black people were relegated to the shadows of the story in general. and then, of course, as we all know and one of the great iron anies of american history, in exactly the same years as the centennial, were exactly the years. civil rights struggles you had anniversaries of gettysburg in atlanta coincides with struggles in washington and birmingham.

nobody can miss that. confederate battle flag was taken out of its cases by segregationists to be waved in rebellion against the civil rights struggle. centennial activities slowed. 35,000 people came to ma nas success in 1961. 5,000 people came to apomatics in 19d 65 because the civil war seemed ifr relevant by the time it limped to a close after voting rights act and civil rights act of the same years of atlanta and apomatics. virginia and south changed in profound ways following the centennial. virginia is the ninth wealthiest state in the country. i'll thak all of you in this room that contributes to that. our politics are closely balanced, voting for president obama 2008. people mull over the nation now come to richmond. 60 languages spoken in local schools. va is it stepped up in 2006,

organized the largest and most active commission in the country and they said, it's important to know, this is not a celebration. there is no joy to be found in a war that caused the deaths of over 620,000 americans, divided families tore apart a nation and left cities in ruin. rather, it is a commemoration. it is a solemn remembrance of americans, men and women, children, black and white from the north and south who live, fought and died for that which they believed. so, i decided, you know, okay, i'm willing to get behind such a thing. that commission seems to be stepping up in a way that i would hope. and david was there, provided 16 historians to come and talk about america on the eve. civil war. we had over 2,000 people show occupy a thursday as a skeptic put it, for a whole lot of talking. >> only historian conference with jumbotrons. >> nice segue, david, because the memorable event in that

session is when the three jumbo trons, one of our colleagues showed a single page of an account book from a single slave trade in richmond in 1859 and showed on that page $2.3 million worth of business. in dealing with the sale of men, women and children. and the response was, magnified to 2000, the response you just had here. oh, i can't believe -- and eat s dollars the slave trade in rich mon richmond was $100 million a year. people came up to me for weeks after and said, i had no idea. i consistent know the slave trade was of that scale. and people turned out that even though we now think of virginia as sort of being the mid-atlantic, in 1860 it was the largest slave state. a half million people. not far from where we're sitting right now, slavery was firmly entrenched.

people who heard those facts about richmond slavery were willing to think a little about maybe we needed to broaden our vision. now, fortunately there's a wonderful set of allies in richmond. virginia historical society, library of virginia, valentine richmond history center, national park service, black history and culturalave trail cn to reclaim the african burial ground, and all those people had been doing great work day in and day out for years to tell this story. and yet the city was gun urned over public memory of slavery and of the civil bandages of the healing. even if it had not healed the way we thought it should, maybe we finally stopped talk about it. people remember the ar sure ashe

statue and those kind of fights. dare we stir this up again. and all the people who are the care takers say, we have no choice. that memory's there. it's not stirring it up. it's bringing it to the light. here was the message, though, that we told ourselves. this is not just the 150th anniversary of the civil war. it's the 150th anniversary of the most important thing that's ever happened in this country. even though there's no national holiday for it. which is the end of perpetual bondage for 4 million people. it's the centennial of emancipation. ot written into the he mission, but these two things were linked. we have no choice but to talk about th now, the challenge on that is that you have to persuade people that it's worth ripping off those bandages. and a lot of african-americans said, i don't to want talk about that anymore.

i'm sick of seeing statues, i'm tired of talking about this. we've had enough. let's move on. and a lot of white people said, i don't want to hear about political correctness or anything. we've got it settled. why would you want to stir this up? the city's moving forward. so, what we found, though, is that, no, we need to talk about it. we staged conversations all over the city, at community centers and african-american churches, virginia commonwealth university and virginia union. hundreds of people came to those conversations to talk with each other in an honest way about our history, what we needed from it and what we owed it. they came with lots of different degrees of enthusiasm and skepticism and they're still coming. people are hungry to talk about this in a constructive way. we're sick of the myths, the same stories that have locked us like amber into the past. we need to bring them back to life. so, we found the islamic cultural center in richmond wanted to talk about it, asian

chamber of commerce wanted to talk about it, country club wanted to talk about, theological seminary wanted to talk about it. all of those conversations people realize that we have to talk about this if there's actually going to be any genuine healing. they also discovered knowing what matters. that facts and proportions, rather than just mythology, are essential. and you found there's no way to argue with the fact of 4 million people becoming free. you can argue about why it happened, how it happened, but what we came to understand is that everyone's opinion is not easilily deserving of credibility. people need to bring in evidence of what they're saying. the purpose of our work is not to make everyone feel okay about what they imagine to be their

past, their heritage. the point is to get the proof. we don't study the past on behalf of our ancestors but on behalf of ourselves and our children. one minute left. i want to acknowledge i beat david. >> well, thank you very much. my name is franc smith. i'm the founding director of the african-american civil war museum. memorial here in washington, d.c. i'm pleased to be joined in this discussion of conflict prevention and resolution here at john hopkins. this is a special occasion for this program, the centennial of civil war and my father, a baptist preacher said, if you're going to take a topic wrestle with it a little bit to make su