provide a legal work force. a program that works is critical if our nation intends to secure the viability of our farms. especially those that grow fresh fruits and vegetables. in previous testimony, i described the most onerous problems with h 2-a. the program is flawed and costly. it is too expensive and cumbersome. most farmers lack confidence that the federal government running the program will meet the obligations on time. my prior testimony, i also recognized practical solutions that agriculture employers agree to give farmers and farm workers that the program can work and treat all parties fairly. the solutions include a rational wage rate linked to the highest of fsla or state minimum wage,

plus 10% to 15%. binding mediation and arbitration of worker grievances and avoid lawsuits. allow farmers and workers to share the benefits of the program to share the fixed costs. stream line the process that discourage participation. allow access to the program to encourage wider participation and provide easy to understand policies. in addition, these reforms must include clear statutory language that defines the role and reach of the administrative agency so farmers are not whip sawed into different legal interpretations. legislation to reform the agriculture guest worker program has been introduced in the house and senate in the congress by members from both political

parties. it is agreement that the program is in need of reform. chairman smith, the american specialty agriculture act adopts what is needed by the employers. for that reason, you endorsed the chairman's bill last fall. the barn act introduced by representative kingston include the improvements that agriculture employers suggest or needed. other proposals scan the program for specific areas like dairy and sheep and goat herding. finally, there is the current investigation of the 12-year-old agriculture job bill to seek the undocumented work force without adding a single worker to

inadequate supply. rather than solve the problems with the current program, agriculture jobs would make many of them worse. agriculture jobs will not solve our problems. many agriculture groups supported the proposal in the past are not supporting it now. i applaud the committee for the focus and deliberate work to solve the crisis. your focus on this issue is critical. unfortunately, the issue of farm labor has become linked to the broader immigration debate and the agriculture industry is a political hostage. it is clear that amnesty alone for undocumented workers did not work well for farmers in 1986. it will not solve the problems now or in the years ahead. only a guest worker program will ensure that farmers continue to plant and harvest crops and provide wholesome food or our nation. this congress has an obligation to fix this problem or we will

continue to lose our food producti production. farmers want to comply with labor laws. now is the time for congress to take action so they can. thank you very much. >> thank you. mr. goldstein. >> mr. chairman and members, thank you for the opportunity to testify about agriculture guest worker programs. our agriculture labor system is unsustainable and unfair to farm workers and families. this system is broken. our labor laws are discriminating and many employers are deficient. the turnover in the force means in that more than one-half of the 2 million workers lack status. this depresses wages for all work workers. including the roughly 700,000 citizens in agriculture. undocumented workers are not

leaving and they are needed. to help agriculture thrive, we need a program that allows undocumented workers to earn legal immigration status. some members of congress have proposed new agriculture guest worker programs, but it makes no sense to bring in thousands of guest workers when there are over 1 million undocumented workers and immigrants. in addition, the program is available and has no limit on the number of guest workers that may be brought in annually. our recent report, no way to treat a guest, shows that the program contains modest labor protectio protections, but it is flawed. i ask it be included in the record. >> without objection. >> many employers prefer guest workers because they are more vulnerable than immigrants. workers may work for the employer that obtain their visa, must leave the country when the job ends and hopes they get

another visa the following year. to pay recruitment fees and travel costs, workers bother owe money that must be repaid. guest workers will toil to the limits of human endurance. an employer does not pay social security or unemployment tax on guest worker wages, but must do so on american wages. the agriculture worker protection act and while recruiting in foreign countries, employers select on age and gender, which is illegal in the united states. these factors have led employers to discourage from applying from jobs and subject them to unfair working conditions to cause them to quit or be fired. we commend secretary solis to protect the administration protections. these protections evolved over years and issued by ronald

reagan. the bush formula, like proposal set most wages at the average of the lowest paid one-third of farm workers in a recent area. cutting $1 to $2 off an hour. we commend the increasing oversight of applications which has led to the rejection of unlawful job terms from applying for jobs. nonetheless, violations of program requirements are rampan. some growers are complaining that it delays processing the applications even though they caused the delay by submitting

illegal job illegal applications. complaints could be provided by more resources. representatives have introduced guest worker bills slash wage rates and reduce protections and minimize government oversight and shift responsibility to the department of agriculture which has no expertise. their proposals would have taxpayers pay for a costly guest worker program where they would bring in thousands of foreign workers despite an adequate supply of farm workers and undocumented these bills for t harm it would inflict. large scale guest worker programs are helpful to american values. they take advantage of the workers. farm workers are human beings,

not imported commodities. our system is not a set of trade rules. it reveals to the world our val. there are sensible solutions to provide the agriculture sector with the labor force, treat farm workers fairly and ensure a safe food supply. fund labor law enforcement over a level playing field and encourage employers to offer terms to attract and retain farm workers. most importantly, congress should provide undocumented workers to earn immigration status and a chance to pursue the american dream. thank you for this opportunity. >> thank you, mr. goldstein. i thank all of you for your testimony. we will move into questions by the panel. since there are not a lot of us here, we will probably do several rounds if other members wish to stick around. i'll start with five minutes. mr. goldstein, you indicated that my proposal along with

other proposals would slash wage rates. if you give workers market mobility, that is they are not tied to a particular employer, but seek employment in agriculture, among the different employers, wouldn't that tend to give them an ability to benefit from wages? i heard a complaint about the proposal from some. very few farmers. you mean i have to compete with the farmer down the street for these employees and i might have to pay them 50 cents more an hour than the other? how does that slash wage rates? your mic. >> under guest worker programs, what happens is the program tends to happen in the h2-a program. the worker are a non immigrant

status. they don't have. bargaining power. >> could you refer to the question i have? i specifically said it would be different than the program. it would be different than the h 2-a program in they have market mobility. yes, they would be restricted to agriculture, but within agriculture, they would be able to seek employment and if, in fact, they felt they were mistreated or not paid enough, they could seek employment from another farmer. i would like you to talk about that specific part of it. i have been criticized by some saying you don't tie them to a particular employer. >> my understanding is that the mobility would be between employers that enroll in the guest worker program. growers that enroll set up recruitment systems to bring in workers. if a worker wanted to shift to another, i don't see why most of the growers would bring on that work when they set up a recruitment system to get a supply of workers on temporary visas. we don't view that mobility as

similar to the mobility people have in the usual marketplace for labor. >> i appreciate it. i wish you would concede what we have in the bill to talk about that. i think it is illogical to suggest that giving them increased mobility in the market in which they are allowed to come into the united states would not have an tendency to increase wages. that is inconsistent. if you wouldn't look that, i appreciate it. mr. wenger, you talked about the jobs in new york. don't we have a peak season of 400,000 in california? >> yes. >> and how many of those were certified for h 2-a in recent year? >> i don't have the exact number. it is less than 2%. it is insignificant in the fact of the overall demand. a lot of the growers are in the strawberry plant business. they can utilize some of the

rural areas h 2-a workers. it doesn't work. they need more seasonal type labor. speaking just quickly to our other answer, last year, a neighbor of mine had cherries to harvest. rain was coming in. the word came in that they need workers. they were tying grapevines and things that were not critical before the weather. when the word went out, he paid more for the labor. he brought in vans and filled with cherries. he salvaged his crop. a good majority of those did not have legal documents? absolutely. your program would allow for that between folks. it is critical when we were talking about seasonal fruit

production. we need that mobility. >> in the statement that maureen tory of new york submitted to us. she is the owner of tory farms. two and a half years ago, they took 1,000 acres out of production and instead planted corn and wheat because they are not sure of how they would get their labor commitment. what did that mean? that meant their payroll for 1,000 acres of onions of $2.5 million for 50 people year round was replaced by payroll for 1,000 acres of corn for $70,000 per year for two employees. how that benefits the employee, i do not understand. >> for the record, we have last year, 400,000 hired workers. only 3,000 farm jobs were certified. >> i don't want you to state

under oath exactly what it is. would you say it is fair to suggest that over half of the work force in the agriculture fields in california is here without benefit of legal papers? >> we are afraid at least 50%. >> would you believe that is true nationwide? >> yes. >> my time is up. colleague from california. >> thank you very much. thanks to all of the witnesses of the testimony. mr. waenger, from the perspectie of california, you have given your testimony that the e-verify program without a current work force would be disastrous. you also said as to solutions that has been and will be impossible to find and deport the current unauthorized farm work force and replace it with new workers properly authorized

under a new visa program author visa program or a combination program. and include h-2a. any solution you have said must deal somehow in a prakts cam and hue main -- practical and humane way with the current work force. why do you think it's important to replace them with the workers? >> they just aren't there. if you take them, you find out who they are through the e-verify program and if you're to remove them to the desert island and had a huge vacuum of need, there's not an adequate supply to fill the jobs. a lot of the folks that are doing this work that have been here, they're driving pieces of equipment that are worth more than the most expensive mercedes. i mean, they understand what

they're doing so it is paramount we find a way to find those who are already here that don't have legal documentation, to be able to go through some system, to get that legal credential, that visa to allow them to work here. >> in talking about the skill set, my district that i represent in california is pretty urban, but we have some agricultural activity as well. especially in the south part of our county. and i remember a number of years ago when i was in local government visiting with the farmers who are growing mushrooms and visiting with the mushroom cutters. incredibly skilled work. i think at that time, that was, you know, 20 years ago they were paying $20 an hour to those people cutting and i couldn't have done it. can you describe some of the other kinds of skill -- we talk about this as unskilled labor, but i'm wondering if you could describe the kind of skills that

are necessary and that are possessed by the current world force and why it might be difficult to replace those stills with an entirely new force. >> certainly. for commodities in california and throughout the country, much more mechanized and so you have to have a skill set that takes years and years to learn that. to operate the machinery in an effective and safe way. for such a demand for locally produced food, we are seeing with urban agriculture throughout california, talking to some of my contemporaries and other state farm bureaus. what we are seeing throughout this country, folks going for more of the commodity areas and putting a certain amount of production into seasonal and fruit production and they're figuring out we need somebody to have that hand/eye coordination that understands how to pick the fruit and harvest the vegetables at the right time.

if you don't pick a strawberry at the right time, it is either ripe and as it perishes in the basket the other strawberries around it, you have to pick it at the ripeness at the right time. can't be too green. it takes the hand/eye coordination to learn whether it was a plum or a peach. all the things that want our kids and grandkids to eat, talking about more fresh fruits and vegetables. you're exactly right, congresswoman. we have one of the board members they do plums and peaches. they'll work every other day and the workers will go from farm to farm. they're making $30 to $35 an hour. they know what they're doing, they get the right fruit in the basket. they take care of it so they can get to market. and it's not just grunt labor. it is somebody skilled in what they're doing. >> i know my time is running out, but as mr. black pointed

out that we have had these hearings and we've wrung our hands repeatedly, but what you're saying is any plan that doesn't deal with taking the current work force and somehow converting them to a legal status is not going to completely work, is that right? >> we have a number of people in this country have to figure out way to give them some kind of an adjustment of status to allow them to be in the country to work, you're absolutely right. >> thank you, mr. chairman. my time has expired. >> mr. ross? >> thank you, mr. chairman. let mel lay the predicate for m questioning, so you understand where i come from. i'm from a predominantly rural place, we have a lot of specialty crops. we have a tremendous demand for labor, and i concur with several of your testimony today that this is an issue that must be

addressed. it had been debated, it's lingered and no action has been taken. but i have growers and harvesters back home who cannot meet their labor demand who are concerned because the department of labor cannot meet their demand and the labor forces they need, they're ineffective. we have litigation out of control and now we can look at how we can keep our growers from trying to farm their property for houses instead of crops and to keep them from taking the crops overseas because it's the only way they can make a living. having said that, we have some wonderful proposals on the table today. i think chairman smith has a very good one. i think mr. lund again has some good ones. i'd like to go with the commissioner on portability. is portability something that's absolutely necessary in order to have an adequate guest worker program in this country? commissioner? >> congressman, did you say portability? >> yes.

to go from employer to employer. >> absolutely. absolutely. >> mr. >> absolutely. you have to have portability or it's not going to work. >> workers can move from one certified farmer to another. >> i don't know if you have any comment with regard -- >> portability plus. >> let me ask you then something else. you talk about taxing here. and we can't get from the labor department what the adequate number of the farm workers we need over here. we can't. we don't have that for obvious reasons. should we have a ceiling, ceiling and then a floor? somewhere in between, the usda would do a study and say we believe that this many number of workers are absolutely necessary? is that something that you think is a workable alternative for that issue? commissioner?

>> congressman, i believe that's in the field of play for sure. we have to have better data in georgia. one of the things we have things we have discovered in this data. we need to determine what those needs are and if we could get that ceiling in the proper place. i think that's a good rate. >> we will touch the third rail of immigration and take this away from immigration and call it what it is. it is an economic tool necessary to keep our economy, local economy, national economy at work, then i think we might be able to have an intelligent talk about this. if we can pass the legislation we can start gathering the data necessary to find out what the labor needs are on a basis. mr. wenger, how do you feel about the caps? >> i feel caps are dangerous because we have heard from those folks who are an h-2a and if we fix h-2a they can bring their workers in. as we look at seasons and folks up in the northeast and the northern areas, i think if you have a cap then those in the

southern parts of this country are going to be better served quicker. we need agriculture across this country. the other thing is, any time you have a cap, and if you say that you have a certain amount of months they can be in country, once they come in country and go back, is that used up even though they can be in the country for ten months? they were only there for three. they like to go back and forth across the border. they like to do what they're good at for three or four months and then go home. have we used up one of the key workers we thought we had them for ten months, but only three or four? if we have a w-visa, where they're agricultural workers, allow them to go where the work is, they're not all working today. maybe they're in transit, getting up into maine or washington state or new york. so i think caps are dangerous. >> if i have time for one more question. how do you feel about caps?

>> we have a de facto cap now. with the bureaucracy. >> yeah. yeah. >> so, you know -- >> it's ineffective. yeah. >> so, you know, the cap and the american specialty agricultural act is 500,000. should it be higher? maybe. let's pass that and get started. i know that if our country makes a commitment and puts the right statutory language in place that we can build a program that works for farmers and is accountable for workers so, yeah, we can have a program that treats workers well. >> thank you. i see my time is up. >> yes, you'll have a chance for a second go round. the gentlelady from texas is recognized. >> i thank the chairman and the ranking member for courtesies extended. just have comments and a quick

question and then a pointed question to mr. goldstein if i could. i have been working on these issues, i'm not from any of the states of the particular witnesses but certainly i join my colleagues in the importance of trying to address the questions dealing with farm workers and in addition i have seen the plight of many of the farming community, large farming communities as relates during these harsh times the loss of product, if you will, in the field. and i consider america -- one america to be the bread basket of this world and want to ensure that not only are the people who are in need here eat and at prices that they can afford, but we're able to serve those around the world. i'm frustrated, however, because we are having this hearing and many of you may have heard me over and over talk about comprehensive immigration reform which would entail of course,

even though we have looked at the farm bill, it would talk about the whole approach. when we talk about individual visas, you can imagine in this time of unemployment, no matter how much you may make the argument are americans coming to pick products, there are those who say you're taking jobs away from americans. let me just ask -- going straight across the board if you -- can give me yes or nos and then i'll get to mr. gold steen hopefully within my time. mr. black, does your state have housing school requirements for farm workers? >> no, ma'am. we abide by the h-2a. the up with that's the focus -- the one that's the focus of the 33 producers, they abide by the requirements. >> you say you don't provide housing? i said housing and schooling for the children of migrant workers. housing for the parents -- >> those are the individual

responsibility of those crews that come to work with the farmers in the community. >> so it's the burden of the migrant worker, they provide their own housing? are the children allowed to go to school in georgia? >> yes, ma'am. but what would be important to know there is whether or not the family's actually with them or not. >> okay. i have to move quickly. all right. i thank you. i have to move rather quickly. do you have any american workers in your fields? u.s. -- >> very, very limited numbers. >> do they come when you call them? >> i'm sorry? >> do they come when you call them? >> i'd say the best example i have of that is one of my growers in tipton, georgia, this past year, under his requirements of h-2a and hiring people processed 1,500 workers and he got eight of them to stay. >> okay. mr. wenger, housing, schooling? >> currently, a lot of growers

will provide housing, they see that as an attractant to get workers. it is not required. schooling, if they have children, they go to the public schools. >> it's open to them? >> yes. >> mr. wicker of north carolina? >> i can only speak to our h-2a and the families won't travel with them. the state department doesn't offer them visas. >> what about workers for mr. wicker? >> schooling is available -- >> no, american workers working in your business. >> i mean, sometimes there's housing with it. but most -- >> american worker, u.s. people, working in -- i'm asking you do they work in your business? are they in the fields picking product? >> we have some that went through the legalization process in '86. >> yes, ma'am, we have u.s. workers working on the farm. supervisors -- >> native u.s. -- >> yes.