when the red light comes on, you are to stop in mid syllable unless you're addressing a specific question of a member of the supreme court. we don't do that here. we would like you to try and follow that five minutes as much as possible. let me introduce the witnesses. mr. gary black. mr. gary black serves as commissioner of the georgia dealt of agriculture. he began his career with the georgia farm bureau in 1980 as representative. later served as coordinator as the state young farmer program. in addition, he served as president of the georgia agriculture business for 21 years and co-managing the georgia food industry. he earned his bachelor's from the university of georgia. the second witness is mr. paul wenger. he is currently serving his second term as president of the california farm bureau federation. in addition to serving as a member of the federation board, he chaired the water advisory committee.

in 2011 he was elected to farm bureau board of directors. he's a third generation farmer and earned his bachelor's degree from cal poly san luis obispo. the next witness worked for north carolina employment security position as a technical supervisor for farm employment programs and stayedwide administrator for the h-2a program. mr. wicker has been growing tobacco with his family in lee county, north carolina, since 1978. graduated from the university of north carolina at chapel hill. our fourth witness is mr. bruce goldstein. mr. goldstein is president of farm worker justice in washington, d.c. he has substantial experience regarding h-2a temporary foreign agricultural worker program. prior to this, he worked as a labor and civil rights lawyer in southern illinois. he became a staff employee at

farm worker justice in 1988. he received his bachelor's degree from cornell university. his law degree from washington university in st. louis. gentlemen, thank you very much for your testimony. we are looking forward to it. if you would proceed in the order in which i introduced you and attempt to keep your remarks to about five minutes. your full comments, that is written submitted comments, will be submitted in their entirety in our record. mr. black. >> thank you, mr. chairman and ranking members and ladies and gentlemen of the committee and ladies and gentlemen in attendance of this important hearing today. i'm deeply honored to serve as commissioner of agriculture for all farmers and all consumers in georgia. a state that is very rich in agriculture heritage and diversity. i first discussed this guest worker reform issue and this type of subcommittee forum with three vidalia onion farmers in 1987. our gracious host for that day

was congressman sonny bono. dozens of us have come here for generations. we lay problems at your feet. snap photos and return home. the ritual has become an industry in and of itself. people share their problems with me, too. we can articulate problems very easily, but crafting solutions requires more effort. america's well documented illegal immigration program has reached a fevered pitch. some argue that it is a drain on resources. others insists illegal immigrants are so woven into society that their absence would cripple some areas of skilled labor. nonresident laborers, those of legal and illegal status maintain landscapes and harvest crops. we know this to be true. for a generation solution searching discussions have

loomed on the horizon much like a summer afternoon cloud bank producing lightning, thunder, and wind but no rain. it's time that we work together to break this drought. i salute you, mr. chairman, and congressman kingston, my good friend and other members who demonstrated great courage in proposing 21st century solutions to america's must aligned guest worker program. legal service reform and housing vouchers and transfer authority to usda are ideas that warrant immediate consideration. these proposals and others, though must not compete with, but be complimented by mandatory e-verify in my view. omonths have long shouted at each other in this stadium for too long. it is time we leave the grandstands and suit up on the field of play with the goal of solving the labor problems in american agriculture. agriculture is not alone in this arena, but i suggest we could

provide the laboratory. mr. chairman, your hearing shows this progress. a new bill indicates interest. let's embrace this opportunity by considering a multitude of ideas. as a component of guest worker reform, i suggested to your senate subcommittee counter-parts last fall a penalty-based authorization permit. following a limited sign up period, those who come forward would be subjected to the oversight and stiff penalties. including a substantial monetary penalty, agriculture only permit, immediate deportation for violations. forfeit of social security benefits, waiver of future social security benefits withholdings with both portions dedicated to a required market-based health insurance product and fierce employer sanctions immediately following the end of the sign-up period. mr. chairman, this puzzle has many pieces in the economy of

your hearing does not allow it to be thoroughly examined. i back up my plea with more detail in my written comments and in the 189-page document we were required to submit just this past month. my goal is to stretch the balloon in such a way it will not return to its current shape because the status quo is highly unacceptable. many retailers feature a green, red, orange and yellow bell pepper 24/7. in georgia we can grow these varieties from june to october. without a 21st century guest worker program that includes many of the initiatives that are contained in pending legislation, an idea similar to those that i discussed, i see no way for farmers to meet the consumer demand with domestically produced peppers and other agriculture products. we need a legally documented workforce and reliable management system to ensure integrity. i would be delighted if this was achieved by neighbors hiring unemployed neighbors.

farmers tell me i'll hire drug free sober reliable skilled farm workers in my community, please tell me where i can find them. i love the aspiration but it escapes reality. i ask as respectfully i know how, to act with haste. many think this is impossible in 2012. i'm prepared to prove the critics wrong. american family families, our domestic food system needs help now. thank you and god bless you for what you do. >> thank you, mr. black. mr. wenger. >> good morning, chairman smith and ranking members and distinguished members of the committee. i'm here today because farmers and ranchers across the nation are in critical need of a legal work force to cultivate and harvest our crops and tend to our livestock. in california, we rely on 400,000 workers alone. in peak season. it's estimated the agriculture

workforce consists of 1.83 million hired workers. some estimated as much as 50% to 70% of the hired workers are not authorized to work in the united states. agriculture is a very diverse industry. different regions produce different commodities. widely varying weather, cultivation and harvest times. these diverse needs cannot be addressed with a one-sized fits all single solution. it is not a problem confined to agriculture in the northeast, southern border states or western states. this is not just a problem for large farmers. according to the united states department of agriculture, 60% of hired farm labor is hired by farms with annual sales less than a million dollars. last year, the committee approved a bill to make e-verify mandatory for all employers regardless of size or industry. however, it offered no solution to address the unique challenges that a national e-verify mandate will create for agriculture. e-verify without a workable way to ensure a legal agriculture workforce will send american agriculture production and the

additional odd farm jobs created by it to other countries. farmers throughout the united states have tried innovative solutions to secure a domestic labor force. all have failed. not because we don't pay enough or offer enough benefits. rather, americans through habit and education have progressed beyond agriculture to other occupations. americans no longer have the desire for agriculture work. agriculture is a lifestyle occupation. many farmers see their children move into other occupations. i can speak from experience with three sons. two are home farming with me and one decided to move on to other things. agriculture needs a timely solution to fill the gap between the currently legally authorized workforce and the agriculture needs of the nation. it is estimated that agriculture employs between 900,000 and 1.2 million unauthorized workers with special skills and abilities. any solution must address the following. first, a workable solution must deal with the industry's ongoing need for a future workforce. must agriculture work is

seasonal, intermittent and demanding, agriculture does not attract a domestic workforce. secondly, users have not been able to use the h-2a program but let me be clear. we strongly support an overhaul for those that have been able to utilize it. i respectfully request that the study released by the national council of agriculture employers illustrating the flaws in the program be submitted in the regard. if it could be improved, reform of the program alone cannot stabilize the foreign labor situation. >> without objection, that report will be entered. >> thank you. it is impossible for the program to scale up quickly from admitting 50 to 60,000 workers to admitting the much larger numbers agriculture will need. an example in texas, about 100,000 workers currently fill a need of 155,000 farm jobs each year. in 2009, 2,807 were certified. meaning the h-2a program fills

1.8% of the farm needs and this comes from the texas department of labor. to ensure the industry a future work force, we need a model that is more flexible, scalable and market oriented. congress lungren is offering a visa. it requires a visa, criminal background check and incentives for workers to abide by the terms of their visas and return home when the work is done. the closer a new program comes to replicating the way, the farm force moves now to the crops and more likely it will be able to meet the industry's needs. to ensure the programs work, it will likely be administered by the united states department of agriculture instead of department of labor, which has a long and checkered history of administering the h-2a program. a workable program may meet the needs of the dairy and livestock industries. these operations have difficulty finding workers and their need is year round. any solution must avoid needless disruptions of the

industry and must accommodate the large experienced labor force currently within our industry. any solution must deal in a practical and humane way with current workers. the most important features of the solution for the industry will be to recognize that many of our work force want and need the ability to come to the united states, work on our farms and ranches and return to their home country. the consequences of getting it wrong are serious. make no mistake, to lose the ability to feed our nation and depend on foreign food is a national security issue. imposing an e-verify mandate and not requiring this will endanger america's food supply that is currently grown in america. the united states department of agriculture statistics show that foreign producers are gaining market share in the united states. foreign imports from china have increased over 55%. in conclusion, i shared with you a snapshot of what is taking place across america. i urge you to craft a solution that provides farrajers and ranchers with a solution that is

economically practical, one that addresses the impact of our past inability to solve this problem and recognizes the value of the people who work for us and feed our nation. i'll be happy to answer any questions later. >> thank you very much, mr. wenger. mr. wicker. good morning, i'm lee wicker. deputy director of the growers association. north carolina. thank you for holding the hearing on this critical issue for agriculture. this is the largest state's program user, it has over 700 farmer members. they will ploy more than 7,000 4x 2a and many more u.s. workers in 2012. i'm proud of the farmer workers because they have refused to surrender to the conventional wisdom that it's impossible to comply with our nation's labor, immigration and worker protection laws. instead the farmers and workers have committed themselves to compliance. but the dogged determination of the american farmer, all labor

intensive agriculture can comply, compete, survive and thrive if the federal government would institute common sense agriculture labor policy reforms. americans are blessed to enjoy a safe, abundant and affordable food supply produced on our farms. so fortunate, many americans never give a second thought to the food they consume and where it comes from or what life could be like if the food security was lost. we must never take farmers, farm workers or food supply for granted. in order to continue to deliver fresh food to thest -- the u.s. consumer, american farmers need reasonable, rational, predictable and workable guest worker program that supplies a legal, available and fairly compensated farm workforce. a program that works is critical if our nation intends to secure the viability of our farms. especially those that grow fresh fruits and vegetables. in previous testimony before this committee, i described in detail the most onerous and chronic problems with h-2, a.

the current program is costly, unpredictable and administratively flawed. it is too expensive and too litigious, too cumbersome. most farmers lack confidence that the federal agencies running the program will meet the mandated obligations on time, even when the farmers fulfill their responsibilities perfectly and well in advance of the deadlines. my prior testimony, i also recommended practical and sustainable solutions that ag employers across the nation agree will give farmers and farm workers confidence that the ag guest worker program can work, be predictable and treat all parties fairly. the solutions include a rational wage rate linked to the highest of flsa or state minimum wage, plus 10% to 15%. to help preclude wage stagnation, binding mediation and arbitration, the fast track of worker grievances and avoid costly lawsuits, allow farmers and workers to share the benefits of the program to also share the fixed cost, streamline the overly bureaucratic processes that discourage

participation, allow access to the program to encourage wider participation and provide easy to understand processes for farmers and farm workers to comply with immigration law. in addition, these reforms must include clear administrative -- sorry, clear statutoan that explicitly defines the role and reach of the administrative agency, so that farmers are not continually whip-sawed and subjected to different legal interpretations and regulations with every executive branch change. legislation to reform the agricultural guest worker program has been introduced in the house and senate in this congress by members from both political parties. it is clear there is a bipartisan political agreement that the current program is badly in need of reform. chairman smith's ag guest worker measure, the american specialty agriculture act adopts most of the important and meaningful

sought for by ag employers and would be a substantial improvement over the program. for that reason we endorsed the chairman's bill last fall. some of the other proposals being considered would also make significant improvements. for example, the barn act introduced by representative kingston and the act introduced by senator chambliss include the improvements that agriculture employers suggest or needed. other proposals scan the program for specific areas like dairy and sheep and goat herding. while these are important, they are insufficient to deal with the larger systemic problems of the program. finally, there is the current version of the more than 12-year-old ag jobs that seeks to legalize the current undocumented workforce without adding a single worker to an already inadequate supply and without creating a sustainable and workable guest worker program for the future. rather than solve the problems with the current agriculture job guest worker program, agriculture jobs will make it worse.

ag jobs will not solve any hours. many ag groups supported the proposal in the past are not supporting it now. i applaud the committee for the focus and deliberate work to solve the crisis. your continued focus on this issue is critical. unfortunately, the issue of farm labor has become linked to the broader immigration debate and the agriculture industry is a political hostage. it is clear that amnesty alone for undocumented workers did not work well for farmers after it was granted in '86. it will not solve the problems now or in the years ahead. only a workable and predictable guest worker program will ensure that farmers continue to plant and harvest labor intensive crops and provide wholesome food for our nation. this congress has an obligation to fix this problem or we will continue to lose our food production to foreign competitors. farmers and farm workers want to comply with labor and immigration laws. now is the time for congress to take action so that they can. thank you very much. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much, mr. wicker. mr. goldstein. >> mr. chairman and members, thank you for the opportunity to

testify about agriculture guest worker programs. our agriculture labor system is unsustainable and unfair to farm workers and their families. this nation's immigration system is broken. our labor laws are discriminating against farm workers and many practices of the employers are deficient. the resulting turnover in the farm labor force means in that more than one-half of the 2 million seasonal farm workers lack authorized immigration status. the presence of undocumented workers depresses wages for all workers. including the roughly 700,000 u.s. citizens and lawful immigrants in agriculture. undocume to help agriculture thrive, we need a program that allows undocumented workers to earn legal immigration status. some members of congress have proposed new agriculture guest worker programs, but it makes no sense to bring in hundreds of thousands of new guest workers

when there are over 1 million undocumented farm workers in addition to u.s. citizens and documented immigrants. in decision the h2a program is available and has no limit on the number of guest workers that may be brought in annually. our recent report, no way to treat a guest, shows that the h-2a program contains modest labor protections but it is fundamentally flawed and rife with abuses with u.s. and foreign workers. i ask it be included in the record. >> without objection. >> many employers prefer guest workers because they are more vulnerable than immigrants and citizens for several reasons. h-2a workers may only work for the employer that obtained their visa, must leave the country when the job ends and hope they get another visa the following year. they never earn the opportunity to become permanent immigrants no matter how much seasons they work here. to pay recruitment fees and travel costs h2a workers bother money that must be repaid. guest workers will toil to the limits of human endurance at low wages, when u.s. workers seek more sustainable productivity requirements.

an employer does not pay social security or unemployment tax on guest worker wages, but must do so on u.s. workers wages. h-2a workers are excluded from the principle federal employment law for workers, the agriculture reform act. while recruiting in foreign countries, employers select on age and gender, which is illegal in the united states. these factors have led h2a employers to discourage workers from applying to h2a jobs and subject them to unfair working conditions to cause them to quit or be fired. we commend secretary solis to -- for restoring the h-2a protections the bush administration unconscionably removed. these protections evolved over many years and were issued by conservative president ronald reagan. for example the principal wage protection requires h2a employers to recruit u.s. workers. using at least the average hourly wage paid to farm workers in their region as determined by the usda. the bush formula, like some recent legislation proposals, set most h2a wages at the

average of the lowest paid one-third of farm workers in a local area, cutting $1 to $2 off an hour off of wages for thousands of u.s. and h2a workers. we commend the increasing oversight of h-2a applications, which has led to the rejection of unlawful job terms that discourage u.s. workers from applying for h2a jobs. nonetheless, violations of program requirements are rampant harming both u.s. and h2a workers. our report recommends strengthening protections and enforcement. some growers are audaciously complaining that a deal delays processing the applications even though they caused the delay by submitting illegal job terms or incomplete applications. legitimate complaints could be addressed by providing more resources to the agencies to process applications and visas. representatives lundgren, kingston and smith have introduced guest worker bills to slash wage rates and reduce worker protections and minimize

government oversight and shift responsibility to the department of agriculture which has no expertise administering immigration or labor laws. their proposals would have taxpayers for a huge costly guest worker program under which employers would bring in hundreds of thousands of additional foreign workers, despite an adequate supply of farm workers among u.s. laboriers and undocumented farm workers. we strongly oppose the bills for the harm it would inflict on u.s. and foreign workers. large scale guest worker programs are anathema to american values. they take advantage of the foreign workers by depriving them of economic freedom and political representation. farm workers are human beings, not imported commodities. our immigration system is not a set of trade rules. it reveals to the world our nation's values. there are sensible policy solutions to provide the nation's agricultural sector with a stable legal labor force, treat farm workers fairly and

ensure a stable, safe food supply. congress should end discrimination against fund labor laws. fund labor law enforcement over a level playing field and encourage employers to offer job terms that attract and retain productive farm workers. most importantly, congress should provide current undocumented farm workers with an opportunity to earn permanent immigration status and its chance to pursue the american dream. thank you for this opportunity. >> thank you, mr. goldstein. i thank all of you for your testimony. at this time, we will move into questions by the panel. since there are not a lot of us here, we will probably do several rounds if other members wish to stick around. i'll start with five minutes. first of all, mr. goldstein, you indicated that my proposal, along with other proposals, would slh mobility, that is they are not tied to a particular employer, but can seek employment in agriculture, among the different employers, wouldn't that tend to

give them an aty from wages? that is, i've heard a complaint about our proposal from some, very, very few farmers who said, you mean i'd have to compete with the farmer down the street for these employees and i might have to pay them $0.50 more an hour than the other? how does that slash wage rates? under guest worker programs, what happens is the program tends to happen under the h2a program as well, is because the workers are in a restricted non-immigrant status, they really don't have much bargaining power, and so -- >> could i ask you to specifically refer to the question i have? i specifically said it would be different than the brasera program, different than the h2 program in that they would have market mobility, job market mobility. yes, they would be restricted to agriculture, but within

agriculture, they would be able to seek employment. and if, in fact, they felt they were mistreated or not paid enough, they could seek employment from another farmer. i would like you to talk about that specific part of it. i have been criticized by some saying you don't tie them to a particular employer. >> my understanding is that the mobility would be between employers that enroll in the guest worker program.enroll in t worker programs would set up recruitment systems for their workers. if a worker at one grower wanted to shift to another, i don't see why most of the growers would bring on that worker when they haet recruitment system to get a supply of adequate workers on temporary work visas. we don't view that mobility as have in the usual marketplace for labor. >> right, i appreciate that. i wish you would at least concede what we have in our bill to talk about that. i think it is illogical to suggest that giving them increased mobility in the market in which they are allowed to come into the united states

would not have a tendency to increase wages. i just think that's logically inconsistent. so if you won't even look at that, i appreciate it. mr. wenger, in your testimony you talked about the number of farm jobs, i believe it was, in new york. don't we have a peak season of around 400,000 in california? >> yes. >> and how many of those were certified for h2a in recent year, if you have that number? >> i don't have the exact number, but less than 2%. i could get that number for you, but it's insignificant in the fact of what our overall demand is. a lot of our growers, we have some that are in the strawberry plant business. they can utilize some of the rural areas h2a workers where they need larger numbers of grg those plants, it doesn't work. so they need to use more seasonal type of labor. speaking just quickly to your other answer, last year, a neighbor of mine had cherries to harvest.

rain was coming in. he would have lost his crop. the word went out immediately saying i need workers. a lot of those workers were working in vineyards, doing a lot of other things, tying grapevines, things that weren't so critical to be done before the weather. when the word went out, he paid probably a little bit more for the labor. he had the labor. he brought in vans and filled them with those cherries. he was able to salvage his crop, and he could not have done that if he didn't have the flexibility to find folks. a good majority of those folks probably didn't have legal documents? absolutely. your program would allow for that movement, and between folks, and this is so critical when we're talking about seasonal fruit and vegetable production and weather-related instances coming in, so we need to have that mobility. >> in the statement that maureen torrey of new york submitted to us, and i have it in the record, she's the owner of torrey farms, a 12th generation farm. took 1,000 acres of fresh market

vegetable production out of production and instead planted corn and wheat because they were unsure of how they would get their labor commitment. what did that mean? that meant their payroll for 1,000 acres of onions of $2.5 was replaced by payroll for 1,000 acres of corn for $70,000 per year covering two employees. how that benefits the employee, i do not understand. >> congressman, for the record, we do have last year, 400,000 , only 3,503 farm jobs were certified h2a. >> i don't want you to state under oath exactly what it is. would you say it is fair to suggest that over half of the i california is here withoutal pe? at least 50% or -- >> would you believe that is true nationwide?