who glories in the wonder of her hair, okay? this go onthe incident of the certain shock jock who used the word nappy in a very negative term and got fired and got rehired by somebody else. somehow he was putting a real racial spin on this term. in this particular instance, the woman who brought this to her classroom, a school each in new york, remember discussing this? school teacher who is white and god knows we have to mention that for the sake of the story, brought it to her mostly urban students and said this is a book i want you to read to talk about how you should promote yourself in a positive way. next phase of the story you already know. what happens is the parents of some of the black children -- and here's the part that always makes me kind of like my eyebrows go to the top of my head -- hadn't even read the book. the only thing they heard was what word? nappy. >> okay, nappy. oh, that's so negative. then they understand that the

teacher is white. so now, you have no right to discuss with my black child, okay, how do you know she wasn't already glorying in the color of her hair. what's wrong with you? now they're upset and offended by the white teacher. what happens as a result? there is a referendum. and i'm being polite. i believe the word is kangaroo court, but the word is referendum, held at the school. principal, members of the school board, parents, teacher. it is out of control. it is accusatory. it is finger pointing. okay? it is almost a physical attack on the teacher. how dare you? now, not to their credit, the school officials and administrators do not support the teacher. she gets fired. for presenting what she thought was a positive role model to her students. the story gets out to the media. suddenly they don't look so good.

they invite the teacher back. and you as a teacher say? >> no. >> that's right. got the back for you right here. and i would -- personally, i'd do the same thing. you can't support me when the heat's on, obviously i can't trust you. it's a sad story. it should have had a much more positive ending. there should have been end ugh. here's where i go as a teacher, you should have read the darn book. and then the controversy would be over. but, no, couldn't be bothered with that. went immediately to a knee jerk reaction, racial stereotyping and away we go. okay? same sort of thing that people are afraid of happening with what? >> huckleberry. >> and these are nice additions, too. little vanna white for you. we're not just talking about the issue with these two books. so the idea is that when we're talking about this we're not talking about an issue that's

just about these two books. we're talking about an issue that has not gone away. sadly, one of the unique and terrible things about our heritage as americans in language is one of those places where weigh find out exactly how strong that bond still is. yes? okay. so i think i'm about done with these. i'm going to take these off. do i see a hand? i thought i saw a hand for a question. i tell you, please, go ahead. >> was it kevin? i just completely disagree with kevin specifically because when we were talking -- >> on what point? >> i'm going to say exactly. when we were talking about being in the library and not allowing the children to read certain books, i disagree pointedly because emmett till was a child, martin luther king was a child, malcolm x was a child and i'm sure as heck they heard the word nigger and much worse words used derogatory. you know, i think about in this

aspect of culture it's not that that was hidden. emmett till, i'm sure he was hung and he was drastically horrible beaten. and i'm sure they called him more than just nigger at that time. >> what did you agree particularly on? >> i didn't agree with the fact that he said he wouldn't show the book to children. >> well, no, he just said that samuel clemens said he didn't want the book shown to children. he didn't say he would personally. >> sorry. my mistake, kevin. >> and that's okay. here's how it goes. there's also a point of view about what young people should see and what young people should not see. okay? in your own household, if you have kids, if you have kids, ask your mother was being wrong done in your house. she'll point right to your wife. this is what i would have been doing. oh, please, will that ever end? every generation has an idea of what's appropriate or not. every teacher has an idea what's appropriate for kids and what's

not. if he was the school library, he has another censor to deal with that as a person or intellectual don't have he's got the principal, he's got the school board. okay? he's got anybody that governs what teachers do coming after him in a second. no controversy. no controversy. god for bid we should figure out what that means. what is a life without controversy? what is a life without inlection and discourse? but some people are more afraid of litigation than they are of intellectual freedom. okay? and intellectual freedom for some people is dangerous. how dare you be thinking? i didn't bring you here to think. true and false. get the hell out. but the idea is in here, i'm at least hoping you guys are encouraging the idea that i trust you to come to your own own conclusions. you're not supposed to be mirroring my thoughts. you're supposed to be coming up with different ideas what you think. do you have to be black to be offended by the word nigger? >> no. >> okay.

>> well, i'm not picking on you guys although i love you madly. why would you be offended if you're not black? let's deal with it. i heard a source that i rarely hear. please pass the microphone to sharpie back here. let's hear what it is. give it to me young girl. >> because they can have friends that it offends them so it hurts them to know that their friends are hurt. >> so you can have a personal involvement with people who might be offended by the word. >> yeah. >> thank you. someone else. i've got a microphone for you right here. is this one working? go for it, young one. >> it's not even just your friends. it's a race, humanity itself. once you bring one person back, you bring everyone back into martin luther king. when one of my brothers is in jail, i'm in jail also. the idea is that everybody's affected by the same thing. i'm hoping i didn't hurt my microphone when i put my hands on my chest. it's an important to have appreciation. i'm talking to students about race and they say well, it's not a big deal. is that a point of privilege because for some people, it's a point every day.

we talked about personal encounters. that's an important to an understanding of literature. when i talked to you about my personal experience with the n word, i'm old enough to have been on the edge of the civil rights movement. i never saw the a nigger sign, i never saw whites only sign. if i went to the back of the bus, it was because i wanted to. it wasn't because i had no choice. there was no line on the bus that said black people behind this line. thanks to the works of others i never had to experience that. i experienced close enough to have marched for important causes. and for me, the memory of that time even though it is not my own is still alive. now we're several generations from that. it's easy to forget what it costs people not to have the that word used on them. i collect black memorabilia, little dolls that show black people as caricatures of themselves. big smiling faces eating

watermelon with the big sausage lips and big white thing around their lips and nose, fright wig hair. i collect that for a very specific reason. the idea is the same reason i teach, you should not forget the past. there will come a time -- and i believe it that's why i collect -- there will come a time when all of those things are gone and people will pretend it never existed. this is the more severe reason why i do this, is that for the last person who comes out of a concentration camp had numbers tattooed on their arm, when they die, now all the stories of concentration camps go to the same places people who deny the concentration camps ever were done. it's on video. it's in artifacts and it's not in the person telling you the real story. so who then decides what's true and what's not? okay. when we think about the n word, it's not just a word that rappers use. before they came along, there was another use for the word. okay? it's not just a word that i'm coming after a white person for

using because i think they don't have a right to use it. what a waste of our time. the fact that we use the "n" word, it should still be debated as far as i'm concerned. if we don't understand what the word nigger meant and all of its definitions and that's one of the things we're exploring in class, then we need to figure out why. why was it so important for somebody to decide you can't use n-i-g-g-e-r why is that so important in who is controlling who and why? yeah? that's what this is about. when these two classics were done, which sadly is not read a lot now, partially for some of the reasons that we've been discuss, partly because a lot of people don't know they exist. the controversy has been so much into the titles. uncle tom's cabin, doesn't have that the n word? no, we can't use that. huck finn, how many times did they use it, 219? i knew you'd know that.

the idea is how come we can't use that in our clam? because it might cause controversy and somebody might suit and somebody might be unhappy. you must be kidding. we, as intellectuals, we as academicians, we as explorers and readers of the literature have a responsibility. for those of you who are discovering the creation of literature, you have a responsibility, do you not? can you create anything you want in the world that you create in literature reflecting history or not and feel comfortable in that creation or must you presensor yourself to decide that i can't offend anybody so i can't write this thing? yep. first part of the semester, i gave you an assignment about creating a piece of literature. gave you the freedom to write whatever you want. did anybody presensor themselves about topics you can't handle even though i said as far as if i am concerned, everyone in this classroom is an adult. that is your freedom, that is your right.

yes? anybody presensor themselves? so everybody wrote the language they thought was appropriate? anybody use strong language in their pieces? feel funny or odd about doing that? >> in my piece, i actually had like a sex scene but it wasn't like graphic. it was in there and for a little bit i felt like should i put this in. but i feel like it made it real. i'm not going to just -- it's a college, too. we're in college. so yeah. >> it's important that this discussion take place. some people don't understand when we understand about censorship and historical censorship, i remember in our open discussion in class, there several people -- there were actually a number of people who decided that forsake of history alone we should leave the word where it is. whose people believe that here? we're talking the about the "n" word. you had a particular reason you thought that. why did you think that?

>> because if we take the word away, then we're pretending that it never happened. we're trying to erase history and we can't erase history because the only way that history doesn't repeat itself is if you learn from it. >> excellent. >> so we pretend that, you know, slavery never happened and all of that. then whose to say it's not going to happen again sometime in the future? >> if the memory fades, you're right, how do we know where the mistake was made? did i see your hand in the back. why it should be changed? okay. over here, please. thank you. >> i say yes and no. i say yes because if you leave it, the kids will be like since they use it, why can't i use it. so it shouldn't mean anything because they don't understand the real meaning of it. and that i think no because changing it can change our history and how we got our brak round and how we became free and got our freedom today. >> didn't you have a personal example of a young person using

the "n" word and you were concerned? >> i don't remember. >> younger brother or sister, nephew, you said you heard them using the word? i knew there was more than one person that told a story. oh, yeah, wait a minute, i remember that. yeah, they said the "n" word. no, it's okay. here, and then in the back, please. >> i think anybody who's old enough to understand the plot and read the book and understand all the other words in it and comprehend all that is probably old enough to understand the use of the n word and anything that goes with it. >> so you trust the readership. >> yeah. >> someone gets the book, you're not worried about them being offended or finding out about a taboo topic? >> no, because i think anybody you would want to protect from that word, like maybe a 5-year-old or something like that, they're not going to make it past like the second paragraph and understand what's happening in the book. >> okay. >> so because the book is written obviously towards a certain age group, you feel that group will be mature enough to handle the material?

>> yes, just like with r-rated movies and everything else. >> thank you. somebody had their hand up in the back? which point are you addreaddres? >> why it shouldn't be taken out. >> please. >> i think it's going to create a domino effect. you take this out, we'll say you can't take other words out and sensor them. it's going to keep going on and on and on. you're not going to be able to protect children from everything. >> the slippery slope. the idea is if we do this today, what's going to be vulnerable tomorrow. it's a very good point. did you want to jump in, my brother? >> one thing, it shouldn't be taken out because it was his work and you can't change someone's work. >> the right of the artist to create what he thinks is important should remain intact. >> exactly. >> thank you, my brother. of i see two hands i have not seen before. could you pass the microphone down here, please. debra, go right ahead. >> i wanted to say he talked about when you wanted to write the paper.

the personal, it's important to keep some words in there because it reflects what really happened to you. i also believe if you read uncle tom's cabin and huckleberry fin, there were kids involved in slavery. there were kids involved in this thing. if you take it out, you're not helping them because it could happen to them. why are we keeping help from understanding what really happened? we can educate them. there could be other ways of getting across to kids instead of i don't want you to see what happened. they have to deal with certain things in the future so why not just educate them and let them find a way of dealing with it themselves. >> you think the discussion is important more than the omission? >> yes. >> thank you. >> i think some people want to switch the words so they can avoid tough questions when children ask for. and i want to point out that the "n" word is a reference word. and that tell us that there is a difference of race in this

country. >> could you say that again? i want to be sure everyone heard you clearly, please. >> the n word is a reference word. it tells us there as a difference of race in this country. >> thank you, i appreciate it. yeah, you want to jump into the conversation? please. >> i just want to say that i feel like we underestimate children and if you will just kind of look in uncle tom's cabin, even little eva, little girl, she was smarter than her mother who was an adult and she knew and could tell that there this is not okay and this is not right. i feel like a lot of times we underestimate children and don't even give them the opportunity to kind of figure out what's right and what's wrong. >> the interesting thing to me -- thank you. give it to him. the interesting thing about this that the comparison, i don't know if we made it in our previous conversations in class was during the 1950s, there was a series of comic books, horror comic books called ec comics.

i just absorbed them through my skin. i loved it. there were pictures of people being hacked to death and being stabbed and buried alive. oh, that was good stuff! but they came under the censorship of senatorial hearings in the 1950s because they're saying this is horrible stuff. kids seeing this stuff will have nightmares and become juvenile delinquents. yeah, that worked. but here's something they missed. when you speak of kids being underestimated, i always saw through the moral of the story. if you saw somebody kill somebody and thought they'd get away with it, by the end of the story, karma caught up with them. i never missed that part of the story. this is the power of literature. you're right. i trust someone's going to reed it and get the true part of the story or the more visual images and we discusses the nature of the story structure and drama, it is not always the most physical action. it is the moment of highest dramatic action that is the most important. even as a young man reading, i

got that. it was not the creature comes from the bog and they're shooting at him with bullets and trying to kill him. it was he at one point had been a guy who had been done evil and was cursed with this. it was a moral complex story and it didn't have to be so much more complex i couldn't get it. debra. >> i also wanted to point out that if you look at society today, a lot has changed. like these kids know a lot of stuff. so like, they're being exposed to stuff like day by day being exposed to new things. i don't think we should keep it from them. i believe if you change the word to slave, she said she's more offended by slave than nigger. so like you said, there's always going to be something. someone is always going to be offended with something and then it keeps changing and changes history. >> i'd like to address the issue you talked about for young people. one point we haven't talked to before. no, no, hold on to it, because

you'll want to respond. it is this, is that there was a point in time where children were considered to be small adults. if you live on the farm, i don't have to give you a lesson. sex education. i just point you out to the yard where the animals are. okay? if you are a young person living in a one-room house and your parent' bedroom are in the same room as you are, i don't have to give you a sexual education. all you have to do is be awake at night. since the turn of the last century, we have changed in our idea about instead of kids being small adults, no, they're so precious and so delicate. need to change it. no one wants to talk about what it was like beforehand and kids all survived and no one turned into a mass murderer that we know of. okay? the idea is, how we treat young people as opposed to how we treat adults. censorship is for you as well as kids. we're not changing it just for kids. that's what we say initially. that's what we always say. we don't want to learn about sex? yeah, well turn off the cable. you won't have to worry about sex ever again. okay? but the idea is that

i want you to have appreciation kids are not just a specialized argument. that's for you. this is taken out for adults, as well. did you have a question or a point? if everyone's worried about the kids like reading it and they do end up changing the word and what are they going to do, like make everybody throw out their old books or make them lock it up so their kids aren't going to get it? you put it on a book shelf and the kids could easily read it. >> or go onto the, you know, onto the net and read it. remember, we're only talking about one publisher, one publisher changing the word, okay? but it's tied into your point about slippery slope, the idea where do we go from there. after one publisher does it, maybe the social stigma becomes so large we start having everybody change it. it's a question we need to ask. yeah? thank you. >> i just have one more point. i just think it's a really shallow way of thinking to think if you read the adventures of

huckleberry finn or uncle tom's cabin that the only thing you're going to take from it is they used the "n" word. >> yeah. you're right. it is a simplistic point of view. please. there you go. he knew right where the mike was, too. i love that. >> in both books, the word is not just used by white people but by black people. it's not just used in a derogatory way. it's used to jib a general situation of who they are. >> how is that different from using slave is an a descriptor, as well. >> slave is not how they're referring to someone. you wouldn't necessarily say your own child, get off the bed, slave,sohat example for the rest of my class. thank you, that was good. thank you. yes? >> i have a question. >> please. >> i'm wondering about huckleberry finn and jim being an ex-slave. >> sure. >> calling him slave still, wouldn't that skew the story. >> so he's slave jim. >> they doing that, right?

they are changing that word in the book to -- it completely alters the story. >> there are certain cases where to change it seems superfluous. absolutely right. thank you. questions and comment? a hand. oh, please. give this man a microphone. >> i went back about the "n" word. >> please. >> a lot of people would hide the word because they don't want something bad, repeat something bad about them. >> you don't want a negative part of history being brought to light? >> exactly. because a lot of people like if you say united states, the first nation in the world, it is nice. >> absolutely. >> but it is a nation of past slaves. the fact that we hear only good stuff about them, that would hide the word. >> that's a very good point. idea there's more to american

history than just stories about flag waving and winning battles. we talked about before that the creation of the american republic could not have been done without the unpaid labor of black slaves. it's an unfortunate fact about our history that we have to talk about. well, i think we should talk about but some people obviously do not. okay? other points? did i see your hand up? i was just making it up. right here, please. if your face hasn't changed color, it won't have been worth it for me. what do you got? >> i have like an example kind of like what we said that kids learn so much. >> please. >> ply sister told me, when she went to get my nephew at school around 1:00, she saw a little girl, she was a black girl. i don't know the race of the other girl. it's kind of like racism but one girl called her fat. she was trying to jump over the table to go fight her. she was maybe a fourth, fifth grader. how would they learn unless it was from their parents or somebody. so it goes to show you that whatever the older crowd does, they will follow.

if we use the word like nigger, like you're a nigger. they're going to say that, too. they're going to pick it up and continue using it. >> it's not going anywhere. please pass the microphone down here. then we'll come back to octavia. >> i just want to say also, you know, it's kind of going to your comment and what she said earlier about the kids. >> emulating the adults? >> yeah. if kids only hear that song in rap songs and hear it from people saying, what up my -- >> "n" word? >> at least if they read it in a book like this, they're going to understand what the real meaning behind it was. kids these days don't know what the real meaning is behind it. so they just throw it around and use it randomly. maybe if they understand that it came from suffering from their ancestors, they'll stop using it like a -- >> it ties into what we're saying.

the historical context is important. very good point. the historical context is very important, we can't read it without it. when we move a little further into theater -- it's coming to you, hold on -- when we talk about theater, one of the most popular plays in american theater is "a race in the sun." lore ray hanes bury, 1959. censorship already in place. they do not use the word "abortion." what do they use? you have mamma saying, when ruth says she's going to go see the doctor and the mamma says, you're going to go see that woman who does things she's got no business doing. that was her way of saying abortionist. okay? we have censorship in one of the most popular plays in american history. one of the first plays talking about american black family, really, and set the standard for so many other plays after it. even there, we have censorship in place. okay? we have to understand the times. everybody -- every female in

this room was born after 1973, which is to suggest you have never known a time when abortions were not legal. 1959, they were absolutely illegal. for anyone who had what we now call an unwanted pregnancy, it was a nightmare to behold. no one wants to talk about that pre-time, even though, you never know, it could come back again where abortions are illegal. you need to understand history to get a better since of where we are. and with literature, thank god, it can give us a window into history. literature based on history. how are y'all doing? everybody okay? listen, i'm going to start wrapping up. i want to ask if there are there any other questions we want to deal with before we go? please, octavia? >> i just wanted to say that i was thinking when we were talking about the "n" word, oprah winfrey and jay-z has been on stage and both sides have

different feelings about the word. >> both sides of what? >> both sides of both people. jay-z said, i'm paraphrasing, so forgive me. >> it's okay. >> that -- that he says it in rap because -- i don't want to say endearment but it has a different twist on how oprah winfrey was perceiving it. personally for me i'm been nigger and a spik in the same sentence. it's not loving, endearing or compassionate. i don't care what you put on the end of it, whatever it is, it stays the same. >> stays the same. >> it's a negative connotation. >> excellent. >> i just think that we really need to educate as these women were saying. we need to educate our society on where that word comes from historically. it's a disgusting word. >> let me ask you a question. what do you think using "n"

word in that conversation takes place? it's not saying nigger. >> say that to to me i'm sorry. >> you're saying we need to educate people about the word. but when we're saying the "n" word we're not saying the word but we're certainly referring to it. >> well, if i had a child and if i was talking to them about the word, i would say -- i would talk to them about where the word came from. >> would you say nigger or n word? >> i would say nigge rechlt. i want them to understand the power whether they're biracial, interracial, whoever they are. they are from my side of my family and they are part african-american -- irish, too, but they're african-american -- >> they need to understand. >> they need to understand to negative connotation to it. >> thank you. absolutely. kevin, did you another point? i'm messing with you. everybody okay? yes, please. here we go! i started a fire. take your time.

>> no, i do agree -- i appall the idea of someone changing an author's work. >> sure. >> i hate that, but that's -- i mean it could be a whole money scheme for new south. >> it could. >> but the scholar, dr. allen griven, his reason for changing it is to preserve it. >> he is -- >> he is a twain scholar. i understand when i say -- when i say preserve -- he's changing the text. but if you had a choice between letting the book disappear into obscurity or changing a word and letting it be read in school so it's still carried on, i would choose the latter. >> and there's a discussion for why the word was changed. >> the book itself is a great book. that one word does not make the book. i would rather choose the latter and have people read it still than it disappear into obscurity, you know?