another harry lee and who was there and -- this might be too long a story, but they had a child who fell from some steps and died and his wife became inconsolable and took some consoling in drugs and in the process -- but before that and a jolly party atmosphere there for stratford so the wife's sister came and lived with them. she was an orphan and so she went there and she and light horse harry had a relationship that may not have resulted in a child and she finally went to the court and said she wanted to get out from under light horse harry as her guardian because

he's wasting that money and it caused a scandal and provoked harry to leave. he went to the hermitage, actually and worked for jackson's, the federalist working for andrew jackson, the crazy populist democrat, but he'll do that, you know. he'll go that far and eventually he'll go to france and have a biography of napoleon and there he died but his wife became a very pitiful figure, pretty dependent upon drugs and things and died a pauper, but lee and his other brother charles

carter, carter lee spent a lot of times trying to figure out what they could possibly do for their mother. they ended up sending her money, but it was never enough and that was black horse harry, and he was the one who had literally lost the farm. it was sold and eventually came to be betsy mccarty who was the sister of black horse harry's wife and she eventually was -- she, for 50 years, was the mistress of stratford. >> thank you so much. [ applause ]

>> folks, we are madly counting the ballots in the back. we will give the television audience just a few minutes with emory. rather than us taking a break, by the time everybody gets up and walks out and walks back in, why don't you talk amongst yourselves for just a few minutes.

>> live on american history tv on c-span3. as you may have heard the folks at the museum of the confederacy counting the votes on who will be chosen as person of the year 1862. the audience and viewers here on american history tv heard from five historians today. the most recent you heard from emory thomas who nominated robert e. lee. here are the nominations, stonewall jackson, nominated by robert krick who was the chief historian at fredericksburg. david blight for the yale center of the study of slavery resistance and abolition nominated frederick douglass. david fair gut, and the former chief of military history for the army john mount castle and robert e. lee nominated by professor thomas and we'll talk to him in a moment. in case you missed any of

today's event we'll show the entire program beginning at 6:00 p.m. eastern this afternoon and at 1:00 a.m. on sunday morning. we'll open up the phone lines and we'll have them open for your calls while they count the votes. here are the numbers for the eastern and central time zones. the number is 202-585-3885 and 202585-3886. we'll take your calls until they announce the winner. >> been getting a lot of tweets as well at twitter.com/c-span. our handle is @c-spanhistory just in case you want to favor that. the hash tag today is person of the year 1862. #poty1862. just want to read one tweet before we go back to professor thomas. here's one from wilhelm ii.

he's not worthy of conversation. i nominate ben butler and that from our twitter folks. >> we'll go to professor thomas at the library of virginia who is standing by to take some of your calls and question. professor thomas, i do want to start with a question by one of our facebook friends. she'd like to hear professor thomas' opinion about lincoln racing an army and whether he feels lee had any inside information prior to lincoln's assassination. >> okay. i don't think lee or anybody had any idea about a conspiracy for lincoln's assassination. somehow i think he did that all by his lonesome and did it with

a few others, who knows? lincoln raising an army against his own people. and they were the other people and thus he was. >> raising an army to save his nation and it was his focus in the beginning. >> it was in the united states. we had a couple of folks waiting on the phones before we hear the results of the vote in richmond. allen is in cincinnati for emory thomas. hi there. >> hello. i wanted to get your view on the possible accusation of robert e. lee being a racist as described by elizabeth pryor in her book

reading the man and general lee is often regarded as many people being a southern racist whereas president abraham lincoln obviously had racist views, but is generally guided by history as being forgiven for his race of the views, and i wanted to get your perspective as to whether one or the other was more or less a racist than the other and whether they both reflected the feelings of their times. >> i think they both reflected the feelings of their time which were pretty darn racist. lincoln, however, had the capacity to grow. we believe in emancipated colonization and sending african-americans somewhere else, perhaps to latin america,

nicaragua or perhaps to west africa. he hoped that he wouldn't have to confront a biracial society. i think he grew and realized that the biracial society had to work and he, before the end of the war and before the end of his life was counseling people in places like louisiana to make sure that african-americans, the new friedman had full civil rights and suffrage voting for anyone observed in the army and people to a certain educational standard. now about lee. lee had -- i think in a way a social darwinist, believing that human society is sort of a

pyramid and upscale white folks like himself were at the top and african-americans were somewhere down the scale. not as low as native americans, perhaps and mexicans were in there somewhere, but lee had racial assumptions, but was -- much of this was intellectual. you show him a human being and lee was very humanitarian. for example, he paid and he hired his body servants during the war and he was the guy that sort of took care of his equipment and he had paid them a growing wage for that kind of work. >> professor -- >> they were not his slaves.

>> professor thomas, i want to jump in momentarily and we understand the votes will be here shortly. let's get one more quick call. we have jennifer waiting on line in san diego. go ahead. >> hi. i'll be very quick and say, you know, i think nominating lee is one of the worst kind of revisionist history and it's one of the more insidious. he might have had a moment, and lee was called traitor by grant by being such a good general and prolonging the war. i'm a descendant from slaves. so he -- i mean, it really is comparable to nominatie ining ma in israel. he can't be man of the year because we still have history.

we are not at 2011. i think lee's body should be mixed with road tar. >> isn't that a little harsh, jennifer? >> it's a little harsh, i think. the assumption is anybody associated with slavery, anyone remotely associated with that and who favors it in any way should be disinterred and mixed with ashes. would that apply to people living in the united states at the time of abu ghraib? we were war criminals. all of us. if that be the logic. in his time, he transformed the war and even as you describe him as some kind of devilish fiend, he's the most influential person in 1862. >> professor thomas we'll let you go there so we can all watch

the results. professor ameritus. the dogs of war 1861. we'll see what the result is in a minute or two. >> i'm excited. thank you so much. >> you bet. we'll remind our viewers, too, that we will continue to make your calls once the announcement is made up to 4:30 eastern or so on american history tv on c-span3. >> okay. if we could arm the mike up there. got it now. okay. ladies and gentlemen. thank you all for attending and bringing part of the symposium couri of the day in our enthusiasm learning more about the sesquicentennial,

c-span is airing this tonight at 6:00 p.m. and again for those of you who are insomniacs at i wouldn't be surprised if they air it at a future date. i hope a o visit us at the museum of the c beginning, i hope you will all be members of the museum of the confederacy. we are opening our new site at appomattox and it's looking roll good. >> now for the results. general, i'm afraid that your man little napoleon, george

he had only 12 votes. jim macpherson. instead of saying damn, the igh full speed ahead and he came second to last at 13 votes. bailey otherwise known as frederick douglas came in right in the middle with 20 votes. bob kricks, hero, and he had 25 votes and i am here to pronounce that robert e. lee with 71 votes was promoted from the king of spades to the ace of spades.

robert e. lee is the man of year for 1862, and i'd like to thank all of you for coming and please get home safely.

>> so the winner at the library in virginia in richmond for person of the year is the selection of robert e. lee as person of the year 1862. again, the nominees today were from robert krick, who is the chief historian of fredericksburg for 30 years, david blight of yale nominated frederick douglas who came in third, nominated by james macpherson came in first and he was dead last in the voting in virginia and we congratulate professor thomas and we'll open up the phone line again for our viewers. professor thomas, you earn a big trophy or a big prize? no, i got a handshake for the director of the museum of the confederacy.

>> we have callers waiting to talk to you. you talked a little bit about this in your nomination for robert e. lee. when general lee turned down the command of the union army in the spring of 1861, did he have inkling that he would take over command of the southern army? >> i don't think so. i think he turned it down because there was some irony here because he really just did not like conflict. he doesn't respond well to conflict and he does so because he can't handle conflict, what kind of conflict, you ask. he would have had war on his neighbors and relatives and he's going to do that.

he would have spent the rest of his life explaining to the people he cared about and loved why he had turned on them and so i think he really thought he was fighting and offering himself his professional experience and capacity for his friends and neighbors. >> we're going to take calls. archibald is in jackson, mississippi. archibald, go ahead with your comments or question? >> is born and bred in virginia right down the road where jeff stewart was born. by the grace of god i'm a virginian.

my father came down and never went back. he came back and married a southern bell from virginia and it was concerned by this last caller, jennifer to equate, with the example of the education system and i want to see what you think of this to where she either does not understand or does not know that the north and the south made a lot of money off of slavery and the west coast of africa. >> we'll let professor thomas respond. >> i think lee was as racist as most people were.

different races and he liked white folks like himself, and he measured race in terms of white folks like himself who was an important factor. he was -- in terms of individuals, thoughtful and kind to everyone and that included african-americans. he thought slavery was abhorrent but always in the abstract. he really thought that god and god's wisdom would resolve the issue, and it was enough to he -- robert e. lee to do that much about it for which we could fault him, i think. i think the assumption that anybody who enlists something from a moment ago. anybody who says anybody associated with slavery is by nature, evil and beneath

contempt must realize that a parallel circumstance is somebody living in the united states during the war crimes of abu ghraib. we were complicit in that. you know, we have to get used to it. come to terms with it. >> professor thomas, that caller jennifer in san diego pointed out the animus in which robert e. lee, did other union generals have the same sort of view of lee after the war? there was hatred there of lee for having served in the south? >> not really, and i don't think grant despised lee. as a matter of fact, lee met with grant briefly, and the problem -- i don't know how amicably for about 15 minutes when grant was in the white house. it was grant's invitation that

lee showed up and they spent about 15 minutes together. they were by themselves so nobody knows what happened, but they did meet and it was at least on the surface, cordial. i think lee was convinced that grant had more of a sources in numbers and that was the source of his victory. my guess is that grant thought his capacity to maneuver those resources had something to do with his victories. in any event, when it was all over grant made lee and his army presidents of war which gave him the status of prisoners of war and not criminals. they couldn't be tried for treason. they were prisoners of war and that is crucial. what grant did at appomattox is often overlooked, but very

important because it's crucial in the piece. you're not going have mass hangings which usually accompany the end of civil wars. one might suggest, as i sometimes have done in classes that the reconstruction, the piece was entirely too easy on upper class white folks in the american south because after most civil wars, the losers are lined up and shot if they're lucky. >> in this one, jefferson davis got his plantation back, after all, and most southerners, white southerners got pardons for any treason they commended -- either by ignoring it. >> we have just a few minutes

left with emory thomas and we'll go to richmond. on the phone is shannon. hi there, what's your comment or question? >> i have several comment, well, just a brief comment. i think that today considering i'm a person of color from virginia, and i think that frederick douglas being nominated number three is actually pretty good enrichment even after 150 years. i just have a question. i know that jennifer was concerned as a person of color, as well, but i'm from virginia, and i do understand the culture. it doesn't mean you can completely accept it, but in regards to general lee being the great emancipator. i understand he was the emancipator from what he

inherited from custas. wasn't that done, and he was just following it through, would you consider that as the emancipator who freed all of the slaves that were held by the rebels. >> no. some of that was tongue and cheek. i will point out that he in so doing freed some slaves that she owned that weren't part of that estate and basically had no control over these slave, but he was very, very careful to get the names right and to make sure that we were forever free and he wished them well. to some extent i think that is consequential, and it's a way

out to slavery which perceived slavery in somewhat the way thomas jefferson did. it was a great burden, but he didn't know what to do about it. at the end of 1862 and with onboard with his father in law's will that he can't control anyway and they were behind enemy lines and he doesn't have to worry about being a slave holder anymore. >> let's get one more quick. >> going to get one more quick call. >> he's overdoing it. >> here is robert and gaffney, south carolina. you get the last word. go ahead and answer the question. >> home of the big peach. >> i live within five of that peach.