on the streets. i know from switzerland, we had really to look the our neighbor countries, how to have a known police city without jeopardizing their area. >> i'd like to go back to some of the comments you made about portugal. you said that heroin use had reduced by 50%. so therefore, there are still 50% of people who are previously using heroin still using heroin. and they're given clean needles which are presumably supplied by the health department in portugal. who supplies the heroin to the 50% of users? >> it's illegally supplied to them. >> it doesn't take out -- >> i think 50% reduction is a great step in the right direction and it's not just a reduction in heroin.

there's been a reduction in other drugs as well. you also haven't had the situation that -- of, you know, i mean, the amount of deaths related to heroin has dropped by over 50% as well. the amount of hiv inpifections have dropped by 50% -- >> because of the clean needles? >> sure. in england, you know, by not regulating drugs at all and checking on drugs, i mean, you know three people died in the hospital recently from taking ecstasy tablets. but they weren't ecstasy tablets, they were laced with something. so the kids didn't know what they were taking. you know, at the moment it's a completely unregulated market with nobody checking up on what our kids are taking. >> but there's surely a criminal element in portugal where people

are buying heroin? >> yeah. portugal -- i mean what the commission has said is they want countries to experiment with new systems. portugal's particular system is to say nobody who takes drugs will be put in prison. but we are not regulating and taxing drugs. so they haven't gone that far. therefore, you still do have an underground well selling drugs but much less so because if they can get methadone treatment by clinics set up by the government they don't have the need to go into the underworld to get their drugs. and most people now go to the clinics and then when they're ready to wean themselves off drugs, you know, instead of them being frightened about being, you know, put in prison there's somebody there to buy some -- you know, on how to get help. >> may i just -- switzerland -- >> yes.

we'll come on to switzerland a little bit later. >> but there's legal heroin also. >> right. >> thank you. sir, in your article yesterday, one of the things in particular you said drugs are dangerous, they need to be regulated. in the u.k. obviously we have criminalization, but we still allow the police force discretion as to whether they charge or revert diversion programs into treatment. can i ask what specific improvements of the u.k. regulation you would recommend? >> well, in the moment in the u.k., 100,000 young people are arrested every year and the figures are growing for taking drugs. 75,000 of those young are given criminal records which will mean, you know, might be difficult for them to, you know, travel or get passports to certain countries. and, you know, what i would -- what the commissioner i think would -- is that by -- by

actually, you know, moving drugs into the health department and not into the home office that, you know, if people have problems that, you know, just like with portugal they should go in front of the panel of health experts to try to help them. i mean, if my brother or sister has a drug problem or my children have a drug problem, i do not want the law to get involved. i don't think most people want the law to get involved. we'd want them to get help. >> have you studied the industry -- >> i haven't myself personally. i'm sure the commission as a whole. >> it does include early intervention for young people in terms of support for young people and a number of policies which include the education, the department of health and all of the different departments which are intended to provide diversion programs and avoid exactly the criminal routes which you're proposing.

what i'm asking is, are there specific regulatory policy changes which would you think change the processes which you're criticizing? >> that may be the case in writing, but there's still 100,000 -- >> well, this is a new strategy. it's just been published. >> well, if next year those 100,000 people are not prosecuted for taking drugs, but they are helped and particularly those people who have got serious drug problems they're helped, i think the commission would welcome that. but i mean, what the commission is doing is we're not saying, you know, this is how each individual country should behave. we're just suggesting that the current way does not work that's come -- let's come up with new ways. >> thank you. thanks to both of you for coming to speak. following on from the other questions, the misuse of destructs act was passed, the vision is it would eliminate all

illegal drug use in this country and we haven't achieved that 50% reduction would be a good step. will you fame -- the u.k. spends more of its gdp on drug strategy i think .48% and yet is in the top few use of cannabis, top for ecstasy, second for cocaine. but highest for use by young people in the last year. so it will probably catch up there. given that we're spending more than any other european country and having the worst outcomes does that suggest that we ought to have a rather in my brief answers. >> and if i could also just follow up on that. as i understand it, you may know more than i do, the u.k. and ireland are i think the only two countries in europe with the lead agency to deal with drugs such as the home office or

equivalent. i think everywhere else it's a health league. how important do you think it, whether we start or think of it as a public health problem or a criminal justice problem? >> extremely important. i think it would be treated as a health issue and everything -- every single bit of concern would be about the individual, making sure that they -- you know, they get better and, you know, especially those people who had too much alcohol or too much drugs. they should be helped. and, you know, the commission urges governments to treat drugs as a health issue, not a criminal issue. >> yes.in stzerland, my experience is really that we began to change our policy because as with the combination, and also because the police force.

about their job it was an endless job. beginning always with the same people, the same activities.py t have the leadership of the health ministry, but it was also our duty to have a good collaboration between all people working at the front with drugi important thing they learned to cooperate. they learned to understand also the different practice and to help each other because just to take one example at the beginning the police took syringes as evidence for the crime. and you could have a place where you received clean syringes and policemen are taking them just after the distribution. so we have to learn to work together and i think this was an important process in

switzerland. but under the need of the -- >> with the involvement of the police agencies or the dealing withing organized crime and th groups who siphon out a lot of money? >> well. i think the police have to concentrate on thing e organize crime and they have to concentrate on the global issue of drug -- of drug trafficking. the fight in the streets i mean with the street deal and with the people is just a hopeless fight. and it is -- >> sir richard, you mentioned that it was a health issue, but you're on record of saying yourself have smoked cannabis, is that right? >> i would say 50% of my generation have smoked cannabis. i would say 75% of my children's generation smoked cannabis. between three and five million

cannabis smokers in the u.k. >> it has not been detrimental to your health or the health of anyone you know? >> if i was smoking cigarettes i would be extremely worried. >> i have never taken a drug in my life, apart from prescriptions. >> i think that's generally wise. >> there's no need for further confessions. one is enough. >> so sir richard, when you advocate decriminalization or the other questions on the ballot, can we get it absolutely clear what you're in fact recommending is a sort of policy practice in switzerland and other countries, portugal and holland, am i right? with -- >> well, what the commission is suggesting is that policies like portugal or switzerland are ones

that the government should consider experimenting with. governments -- if governments wish to go further with say cannabis, and deregulate and tax cannabis, you know, that's something which we think governments, you know -- you know, in some countries they should experiment with that as well. at least you can then make sure that the quality of the cannabis is good quality and not -- skunk is something which is too strong and whereas almost normal marijuana is -- you know, is found by other magazines to be less harmful than alcohol. all the commissioner is saying, you know, let's experiment with different approaches than what happened until now. >> sir richard, there's no

question therefore of the drugs we're talking about should be sold in supermarkets like cigarettes or alcohol by some heroin -- there's no question of that being your policy? >> the drug commission has not advocated policies as such. it is asking governments and organizations like your own to look at what is right for particular countries. and obviously, you know, we would not advocate heroin or cocaine to be sold in supermarkets. >> would i be right to take the view that amongst the strongest upholders of the status quo in britain would be the drug criminals, the drug barrons, some criminals acting on the international scene, whether they have a strong interest that the status quo success of governments pursue it should be

maintained? >> yes. >> it is clear that there's the possibility to make a big money with the trafficking of drugs and regulating this market by the states would just take away this possibility for making the big money. we have figures how a gram of cocaine is gaining value between the producer and consumer in the states. so i mean, it's clear. yes, i would say the biggest interest to maintain the status quo in the field of repression is the decriminalization. >> $300 billion goes into the underworld from drugs. >> thank you. >> we've heard a little bit from you already about the shift in switzerland from focusing drugs policy from essentially what we

would have as the home office to the department of health. and considering it as a disease issue, an addiction issue rather. can you tell us first, how did you manage that politically? in the u.k., there is a real difficulty with focusing that level of resource on drugs policy as a public health issue rather than a criminal issue. >> well, first of all, we have still law enforcement and it is still the -- one of the four pillars who takes most money. >> okay. >> more than treatment prevention and reduction. but how the process was a very interesting one. it began with multiparties in research of solution and i hope -- and i think your committee will do also a big step in this direction. several parties were looking for a change in the policy and the situation of emergency.

we had a large demand from cities, from neighborhoods, from families of drug addicts coming to the central government so that we had just to look how to accompany new ways, to monitor them on the scientific way, to publish the scientific evidence and we have the chance and the difficulty to vote very often on public issues in switzerland. so that we have something like 15 votes on local off of the level of the drug policy and each of the campaign -- each of this vote was proceeded by a political campaign and discussion and i would say switzerland became the people of europe being well informed on drug issue. and they accepted the change of

our police. >> thank you. >> if i could say one thing, treatment is a lot cheaper than prison and much more effective. between 60% and 80% of all break-ins are drug related. if you can treat people and get them off the drugs they won't need their fix and break in. enormous benefit to individuals in society. if you can treat people. >> yeah. also, could you discuss the specific forms of reduction and treatment that you pursued in switzerland. in particular whether this was maintenance or abstinence based. >> well, we had always abstinent oriented treatment and they're still at the same level. the same number of persons are entering in that. we have a huge experience in methadone for over 20 years. this is the largest number of

treatment we offer and we have the people ready to enter it. we have for the same number more or less than the treatment aimed to do abstinence in heroin-based treatment. these people were taken off the street. >> yes. you did say earlier that this was provided legally. so -- >> yeah, sure. >> the authorities provide heroin legally -- >> absolutely. it's a medicine recognized by our medical authority, but i think it's the same here in u.k. the difference between u.k. and switzerland is that we didn't allow general practitioner to enter in this treatments. we have specialized clinics. only in specialized clinics to control -- to have absolute control on the stuff and the

substance. in clinics linked with social programs, social integration programs. >> final question. >> so this is a treatment. now in reduction, i think we were quite the pioneer in not only needle exchange. i mean, every country is now doing that. but in consumption rooms, safe consumption rooms. and needle exchange and treatment in prisons also. >> thank you. thank you very much. final question. >> could you tell me about the maintenance programs and out into the abstinence programs and sort of contributing back, sort of being off the drug dependence. >> you know from the budget? >> no, how many people moved back into the society. >> what was the success rate of the programs? >> well, to give you the numbers, i'll give you perhaps --

>> i'd be interested to see, yeah. >> save us coming to switzerland. >> i think we'll send you the complete -- >> thank you very much. >> sir richard, you referred to treatment to get people off of drugs. can i just clarify, are you emphasizing abstinence-based treatment or referring to much of the treatment we have now in the way of methadone maintenance? >> whatever treatment works. i mean, again it needs researched to see what is the latest, you know, most effective tret treatments. >> but most effective in what sense? what are the criteria you would use to assess that? >> i'm not an expert on treatment. but, you know, i would recommend that the commission looks at, you know, the various treatments that are going on around the world and just -- you know, just recommend the absolute best treatment. >> we'll be doing that. not going around the world, but certainly looking into that.

>> lorraine fullbrook? >> two questions. one going back to some comments you made about moving the drugs policy from the home office to the departments of health. don't you think it would be best across both departments, the health department would help the individuals you're talking about, but the home office still have to be involved to catch the criminal barrons who are moving the stuff and of course along with the barrons comes money laundering, people smuggling, people trafficking. >> the home office can concentrate on organized crime. and the health department can concentrate on the individuals who have drug problems. and the -- you know, of the 100,000 people who have minor offenses and who are arrested every year for minor arrests as i said, 70,000 are given

criminal sentences. they -- in a 20% of police time is spent dealing with those minor offenses and thof -- and police time can be spent on going after the gangs. and they spend 20,000 pounds on dealing with the paperwork and the minor offenses. that can be sent on going after the criminal gangs. so i really do think it's a win/win all around. >> across both departments? >> yes. >> sir richard, as you heard earlier the government's drug strategy which has just been launched is an intervention diversion route. and basically to reintegrate people into society. as a major employer, what help do you think major businesses can bring? >> well, i can only use virgin

as an immediate example. i mean, we are proactively trying to take people on in the virgin group who have left prison and find jobs for them because we think if we -- if people can get back on their feet again. >> are they specifically in jail for drug offenses? >> i'm sure, you know, a mixture of some people with drug problems and some people without. but i think employers generally need to try to do their best to, you know, help people get back on their feet again. >> thank you. >> -- the organization who is taking drugs, you would dismiss them, would you? >> not necessarily. you know, we'd hopefully try to help them if they're taking drugs and find out what the problem is. and so, you know, so they certainly wouldn't be automatically dismissed. they have a problem. >> and presumably would depend on what they were doing in the substances. >> yeah, look, there are people within every company who have

got drink problems. people who are addicted to smoking and people who may be -- you know, may be taking too much marijuana. and -- or i even more serious drugs. and they need to be helped. i just think that should be the approach with society as a society. >> highly commendable. >> the global commission report looks at west africa and suggests that it's a place where aid and development could stifle the emergence of the new market. can you say a little bit about this? what are the practicalities of that? >> well, the problem is that western african is now becoming a hub in the international roads between latin america and europe. >> sure. >> and being that, it has also to see an explosion in the

consumption. so i mean, what -- >> i understand that, but you refer to the aid and the development being -- offering opportunity to stifle the emergence of the market. how do you see that working? >> we are now under the leader of kofi annan looking to bring together different leaders in the regions to have a better approach of this problem. mainly of the health problem linked with that and to enforce also the police in this country to fight against the corruption, to have better governments. and this is i think what we intend in the development aid. it is in the field of governments fight against corruption and has issue and police enforcement. >> i don't see what you see in practice in terms of the international aid and -- i think

i'm using the words in the report, stifling the emergence of the new market. as you said there's a market developing. we are seeing a growth in that. we are seeing the development of the hubs. so, you know, what practical steps, you know, do you -- are you proposing in order to stifle it, in the international aid? are you proposing to stifle that market? >> yes. as i told, i mean, we have to see what are the needs and i see the main needs and i think kofi annan sees the main needs in a technical cooperation, in the field of public health, police forces and good governments. that is the priority. to think that just having a better economic development to avoid the people to entering the drug deal is in a certain sense

an illusion. >> i'm sorry, let me just try once more. you've referred again to government and you've referred to policy. >> yeah. >> but you in the report make a specific suggestion that international aid can effectively stifle the emergence of the new market and provide incentives for reducing drug supply. >> can i -- >> how does that work? >> we'll send you a note on that. >> that would be -- >> thank you. >> in the 1990s the drug policy in switzerland was very different from neighboring countries. what impact did that have on your relations with your neighbors and how did the swiss government deal with that? >> the only problem we had to face is really that in a certain time, but is no longer the case, switzerland produced -- but i mean farmers were producing cannabis and selling it in the

spirit of the state for this kind of -- of production. and now the neighbors were afraid that as the netherlands is switzerland might be the place where the people are coming -- they're coming to buy cannabis products. so we had to discuss with them how to have control at the border, how to avoid this attractivety of swirt land for the -- switzerland for the neighbors and they understand very well and we found -- we found solutions. now, on the other side, our neighbors and other european countries are interested in what we were doing and because we had an open policy of open books, i mean, about what we were doing, they were just visiting switzerland. i mean, we had less tourists for

drug policies than looking at our policy. i received i don't know how many ministers and civil servant to explain what we were doing and they were very interested. as you know, germany, netherlands, belgium have followed what we were doing and adapted for their countries. now, perhaps your question is also what was our relationship with the international body -- u.n. body the control of the drugs. and this was a more difficult relationship because we were obliged and also very eager to present every year our conclusions and what we were doing. and often critical remarks and we had to discuss about the compliances of switzerland of the convention. i think nobody could really say that switzerland was not complying and implementing the

conventions and it was one difference. we are sure that wither -- that we are in the frames of the convention rules, so this is the only measure we took where we are still in discussion how far it fits inside the frame of the convention. >> thank you. >> cutting off the drugs at the source is absolutely crucial and the operation of international criminal gangs. and from the list of people on your commission as i mentioned earlier, the former presidents of columbia, mexico, brazil, and a number of other countries that were -- is the place where the drugs come from. the committee will be going to vis visit columbia