john schulz, he hung himself in the basement of his home. that kind of got me twirling out of control just before i was going to get out of the marine corps. then finally i got discharged in february, 2007, and then on march 23rd, 2007, my brother who was also in the marine corps, he hung himself in the basement of his home and at that point i think i decided i was going to do everything to avoid pain. i was going to do everything to deal with it myself as i had been doing the last three or four years. i got into drugs, i got into alcohol, i got into whatever it was that would mask the pain that day. eventually i attempted to kill myself. i ended up in the st. cloud va medical center for about 48 hours in lockup, then i was released and off to do whatever it is that i wanted to do, which was go back to work. because that seemed like the normal thing to do after something like that. and eventually i found myself in

and out of jail. i'm not -- and i was getting treated on an outpatient basis for a while at the va medical center. but when you were as messed up as i was it takes a lot more than one, you know, one or two sessions a week to get through my issues. and so i eventually found my way into the dual diagnosis program to get help. it was mostly to avoid a longer stint in jail for my duis. eventually, i got out after about 30 days. i think i started drinking the next day. about a year later i found myself in jail for, i don't know, the sixth or seventh time. and i decided for myself that i was done hurting myself. i was done hurting my family. i was done hurting my children. i checked into a 13 to 15-month faith-based program. that was what changed my life. about a week after jail i stopped going to work, stopped going to school and decided i wasn't going to be very

productive unless i got help. that's what i did at minnesota teen challenge. it was more of a holistic approach. it was -- i went to the va once a week to get help in combat, in the military specific issues, and then i would stay there, you know, seven days a week. i wasn't able to get any funding through the va because it was not a va funded program. therefore i got backed up on bills. i wasn't able to pay things and eventually filed bankruptcy. so in my dealings with the va medical center i always felt like i was in control. i was running my own rehabilitation although i couldn't even put my shoes and socks on correctly most days. i felt like it was whatever i wanted to do, mr. hanson. whatever i wanted to do that i thought was best for me. well i thought what was best for me was to go and get drunk and get high and forget about all my troubles and forget all of my nightmares and pass out with a bottle in my hand. that way i didn't have to deal

with any of those issues that were affecting my life. it was something i believe that could have been ended a lot shorter. if i would have been able to be forced or somehow just, you know, i felt like the va's role in my treatment over the last several years was more of a friend relationship instead of a parent relationship. where it wasn't, hey, you need to do this or else. it was, hey, you know, something's wrong. we got things that can help you. you seem like you've been through some things. so what can we do to help you? i appreciate the time and the honor to speak in front of you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much for your eloquence. you had a written statement. you didn't even look down at it. what you said obviously came from experience and from the heart. thank you for your service to our country. thank you for your service and

continued desire to not only seek help for yourself but your fellow veterans out there. i'm interested in your written statement. you said, i know that when i was discharged from the marine corps i was not a healthy individual. but i certainly would not have let anyone know that. why do you think it was so hard for you to speak up about needing help? what can we do as a member of congress to help improve the system, you know, where there is a way to encourage people to seek the help that they need? >> yes, mr. chairman. i knew i was very messed up when i got out of the marine corps. it was apparent. people told me. you're not the same person. you're angry. i was drinking and i was depressed. and it was apparent to me i -- and to go back a little bit, in

the marine corps my primary m.o.s. was administrative in nature. so i was attached to second battalion, 4th marines, a grunt unit sent to iraq. so i immediately felt like i didn't deserve to get help because i wasn't infantry by trade. so therefore the things that i saw were things that are natural and therefore, you know, just kind of need to suck it up. when i got out of the marine corps, you know, i started seeking treatment at the va and i just felt like i didn't get help because if i admitted there was something wrong with me, there was something wrong with me. and the va though they were there and supportive, they never really said, this is what's going to happen if you continue and you don't get help. you need to get help or if you don't get help you're not going to get this disability check that, you know, you go and spend on booze and the strip club to be very frank. and that's what i did. and so i think the biggest reason i didn't get help was because i felt ashamed.

i felt like i didn't -- there was another bed for someone more deserving than myself. so that was the main reason, mr. chairman. >> you raised two important issues in your testimony. first you said that although you needed to get help you chose not to get it because, and this was your words, i was able to afford not to. and i think it would be important for you to explain what you meant by that and then also how common do you think that is for individuals not to seek help because they have other avenues in which they can go? and, also, how many out there who need help but don't get it because they can afford not to? i mean, do you think it's a large group? >> i do, mr. chairman. i obviously don't have an exact number but i have plenty of friends that i feel, you know, get their disability check and they're comfortable with it. they get it for, you know, whether it's a mental illness or

a physical illness and a lot of the goal is to get it bumped up. that way you don't have to, you know, it's $800, $1,000 that you don't necessarily have to i shouldn't say work for, but it makes life easier. for me as you said i could afford not to because it was kind of supporting my alcohol problems. and i'm not saying -- i mean, it's helped me tremendously but when i was in my mix, when i was unhealthy and making poor decisions it was just a way for me to support my addiction essentially and i know plenty of people that i was friends with and that i served with that, you know, it's kind of the same thing where it's a convenience thing and it, you know, pays certain bills and it does certain things so why get help when that'll take away from the money you're making every month essentially, money that goes in the bank? >> mr. filner?

>> thank you, mr. hanson. not easy to talk about your own life here. but in your written testimony you do mention certain things you think the va could do to serve you and your comrades better. can you go over those a little besides the one you just mentioned to the chairman? >> yes, sir. i felt that very often it was just kind of like i was a number -- another number in a revolving door. i never felt there was much of an actual care whereas when i eventually did go to minnesota teen challenge i felt there was an actual effort for me to get help to get better, not because it was their job, because it was something they were passionate about. and that was a big part of it for me. and another big part of it was i was able to go to the va medical center to get help once a week but then i was removed. i didn't have to be the marine, combat veteran every time i went back to get help. i wasn't around a lot of veterans and i can understand that there is a certain benefit to it but there is also a

benefit to not being with all the people that know what i went through. there was a certain -- there was a certain part of it that not being around people that didn't know what i went through was beneficial. i didn't have to put on this macho man, yeah, i'm this tough guy, which i'm not. so it was a lot easier not to act most of the time. i think that was a big part of it. a big part of it for me was being removed from a lot of the people that have been through the same things as i did myself. and there's also certain other parts about the va where i just don't feel they have any -- at least for me i was able to go to the dual diagnosis program which in st. cloud va medical center, which is 30 to 90 days. after years and years of abuse and just masking my problems, i needed more than a 30 to 90 days. i needed 13 to 15 months. that's what did it. and although it was painful at times and i hated it most of the time, there was a reason. i wasn't able to get comfortable and i wasn't able to just

pretend that everything was all right because eventually things are going to come out and sometimes it takes time and that's what i needed. >> dr. roe? >> thank you, mr. chairman, and mr. hanson, for being here today and giving some i think very tough testimony for what you've done and how things going now for you? >> things are going great, sir. i'm going to school full-time working on another bachelors degree. i'm married. i have children. i serve people instead of taking away. i live a life to, you know, volunteer for veterans. i'm a veterans affairs liaison at minnesota teen challenge. i am able to affect people in a positive way and for all the years i took away give back. i'm a very, very, very happy for the turn-around in my life. >> it's great to hear that. i know it's tough to lose friends. i certainly understand that as a veteran and having done the same thing myself it's very hard to talk about.

and you deal with it every day. i'm sure you think about these men that you lost, friends that you knew, every day. do you feel any guilt for surviving and they didn't? is that an issue with you? do you feel that? >> there was a particular incident in which, yeah. it was a lot of survivor's guilt that i dealt with when i was supposed to go inspect an ied and we got called off. another unit came and they ended up losing seven marines and i was the lead vehicle. and then as we pulled away, you know, we got swore at and told we should be the ones and i don't want to bring stuff like that up but yeah. there was a lot of survivor's guilt that i dealt with and that was, you know, what drove at times my drinking quite considerably. >> i think that probably had something to do with a lot of folks. i want to hear a little bit more about how your faith-based, how the program you felt was successful for you. i think that's really important because obviously everybody is different.

but this clearly worked with you and i think you'd made your mind up, too, you were going to change your life. i think it had a lot to do with you also. >> yes, sir. i was at the point where it was -- i was on my knees in my jail cell praying, you know, god, either use me or kill me. and i eventually went to teen challenge. and the reason i feel that was so effective was it was more of a holistic -- i mean, i was such an immoral -- i used to say social parasite where i was a liar, i was, you know, an alcoholic. i was a deadbeat dad, essentially. and when i went into minnesota teen challenge i was able to deal with the moral and the -- and not just the things that happened in combat but going all the way back to childhood, you know, some of those issues and get to the heart. for 13 to 15 months you're going to get through a lot of the issues. i still have issues but they are considerably less and it was physical healing, emotional healing, spiritual healing. it was, you know, mental healing. like i said, more of a holistic

approach of getting help for not just what happened when i was in the marine corps but before and after. and the damage i had done and the survivor's guilt and knowing that, you know, what happened happened. but i have a future and i have the chance to make the best out of it and that's what i intend on doing now. >> you've obviously done a great job with that and are a real asset not only as a soldier and marine but as a citizen of the country and as a father. and again, to the chairman and to mr. filner's question, how do you think the va could have used some of the experiences you've had to make it better for other marines or soldiers or airmen who have experienced the same thing? >> well, i definitely feel that at times if i would have got the kick in the butt i needed to get into rehab where the va said, look, either you go to rehab, you get better or, you know, you're not welcomed here.

basically if you don't want to use what we have set up for us then maybe you should use somewhere else. because if there's people that really want to get help, this place needs to be open for those individuals. for years, i had great opportunities to get help but i didn't because i didn't want to. and i think if the va, you know, instead of a friendship role, took that parent role where i know there are plenty of times where my dad made choices where i, you know, hated him for it at the beginning but i saw the absolute necessity of it years down the road, i appreciated it much more. obviously, instead of, you know, him not parenting me. it's a weird analogy to use the va as a parent but i just think if the va would be possibly more assertive in their treatment and saying, look, you're obviously messed up. you've been through this. you have been through this. you have this police record. it's time to either get help or find somewhere else to get help. >> tough love. >> tough love. >> thank you so much for your service to our country. >> thank you, sir.

>> you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i want to thank you, mr. hanson, for your service to this great nation of ours and for coming here today, because i know as the others have mentioned that it cannot be easy for you to do that. my questions -- a couple questions. first of all, how did you find out about the minnesota team challenge program? >> i was actually in jail. i had gotten my 700th dui it seemed like. and i made a phone call to tell my sister to pick up my son for a trip to wisconsin dells. i saw an advertisement on the wall. my brothers picked me up from jail and i heard an advertisement on the radio for minnesota team and said okay, well, i think that's a sign. and a week later i told work i got to go get better. and i'll be gone for a year. so that was how i heard about it.

my family had known about it because it is a faith-based program and my mom's a very religious person and so she had mentioned it actually in a previous, but i said come on. 13 to 15 months? i got things to do. let's go here. so -- >> thank you. on the -- do you think that it would be more beneficial for those who are serving in the military today if actually before they're discharged that they actually are aware of different programs out there and trying to, you know, get some of those service while you're actually in the service versus once you're discharged from the military? >> yes, sir. absolutely. 100%. i know when i was, you know, back from iraq and i still had a couple years left in the marine corps and i had really no idea, i could have spoke to the chaplain or went to the battalion aid station or something like that but other than that i really had no idea what i would do if i really wanted to get help.

so i wasn't really in the mindset of getting help but i think if i would have been more aware and been, you know, under the understanding that a lot of people did it and i wouldn't have been the only one and it wasn't weird or weak for me to do it, i would have been more apt to get the help before i got discharged and saved a lot of pain and suffering for my family and my children, my wife. >> and how do you think those services would be more beneficial? for instance, i've been to iraq, afghanistan several times. and every trip that i've been to iraq an afghanistan, when i talk to the generals and asked them if they need help, particularly with those who have traumatic brain injury or severe post traumatic stress disorder, what do they need, we get the same answer. well, they've got the resources they need to take care of them. but the interesting thing is on one of those trips that someone with much less rank approached me, pulled me aside, said they needed a lot more help.

and one of the suggestions that they actually made was that i talk to the clergy. and so since that trip to iraq, every trip i've taken since then, i did talk to the clergy. and the interesting thing is they were telling me that more and more of the soldiers are going to them because they were afraid to seek help from a doctor because they're afraid of what other soldiers would say. do you find that true as well that they might be afraid to seek help while in the service because they might not get the promotion they're looking for? >> yes, sir. absolutely. i feel like it needs to start probably from the top on down because when you are in a unit like that and, you know, you take the risk of asking for help, i mean, you might be considered a broken marine or you might be considered someone that, you know, isn't ready for

the next promotion or isn't ready to lead marines or, you know, be put in that billet in which you have a lot more responsibility. from then on out if you were to do that i feel like yeah you would be putting yourself at risk because you're basically looked at as possibly someone that's broken and that is no good to them. or be given a job, you know, as cleaning toilets or something like that. and that's probably not the case in every unit but i know definitely in my unity would have been probably terrified to actually ask somebody for help and say, hey, i'm having nightmares or i'm having issues like that, because i would have felt that would have been the start of just a domino effect of discussions about where i'm headed and my next rank and my and things like that, sir, so i definitely feel like if there needs probably to be an atmosphere of that's all right, you know.

but then where do you draw the line? is everyone going to be raising their hands? i'm sure that's going to be the next question asked. i think that's definitely where it starts, is the top on down. i worked pretty closely with our chaplain and they had someone in there every single day. but if you would have possibly asked the sergeant major or somebody else, they probably would have had no idea. >> my last question, and everyone's different, you mentioned when you went to the va that it was more of a friendship-type of a situation versus being a parent-type situation, and especially when dealing with traumatic brain injury or post-traumatic stress, i think individuals react differently. my next question, and last question, is actually there was a report the inspector general had done actually with a marine that they investigated whether or not the va provided this

particular marine the proper health care that he deserved. and, actually, it came out that, in fact, it was not the case. and, primarily, it probably was a different situation than yours where the va actually was going to cut the disability benefits from this marine and it pretty much, i think, put the marine over the edge, as far as he's lost his benefits versus, you know, how can we better serve, you know, this particular individual. so, in your comments about you need that tough-love, so to speak, do you think that would be the case in every situation or should the v.a. look more at the individual and more or less take down the silos between the benefits versus the h.h.a. on the health care side. do you think they should look differently at different

situations versus saying, well, you've got to show that tough love in all cases? >> yes, sir, i definitely agree it's on a case-to-case basis. and, for me, i was financially secure enough where if they would have shown the tough love and said we're going to cut you off, i mean, i would have been able to survive. and it would have angered me and i probably would have had some harsh words to say, but i would have been able to -- i'm sure it would have forced me into some sort of rehab and i think that would have helped where there is some circumstances where people are not abusing that communication and there is help. i'm sure there's other ways to go about it than just cut compensation. but i think for some people like myself, it would have been beneficial to do so. but for some people, i agree it's not the best road to go. >> thank you. thank you very much, mr. chairman.

>> mr. spetman? >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, mr. hanson, for being here. it's a good story. and taking the opportunity to share with us your experiences and what you've experienced not only in the military, but also after the military and how you're finding success. also, to your wife, i know she's been through a lot, as well. i can tell she's very proud of you. my question is, after you left the military, did the va ever give you any direction to programs? you mentioned that you heard about teen challenge on the radio and on an ad. and i'm familiar with teen challenge. a good friend of mine growing up, you know, hit the bottom in his life and actually found a lot of success at teen challenge. so it's really encouraging to hear this. but did they give you any direction of different programs? any ideas of where to find help? anything like that?

>> they -- when i did finally decide that i needed to get help and they, you know, they were supportive in saying, yeah, you should find a place. they offered v.a. treatments, which was a dual diagnosis program in the medical center. that was 30-90 days. and then they offered an out-patient one at the minneapolis v.a. medical center that i believe it was six weeks and it was monday through friday, something like 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. but, also, you know, at the dual diagnosis program, i was able to leave on the weekends. so, you know, i'm there monday through friday, inpatient the whole week. but then on the weekend, i'll able to get out and, you know, do whatever i really want to do. so i think that was also a part of the reason i didn't get as much -- you know, gain as much success from that program as well because i was given that freedom. and it's what i wanted. but freedom wasn't what i needed at the time. i needed a kick in the butt and

some serious help. so those were the two programs that they offered to me. they were both v.a.-funded and through the v.a. >> and, as a team challenge, you were there 24/7, committed for almost a year? >> yes, sir. i lived there. there is special occasionings where, you know, you can get a couple days where you go on a pass or something like that. but, for the most part, you're there 24/7, you wake up and you get breakfast. i worked out, go to chapel and then for the second half, you're doing chores, you're doing all of those things. but you're there every single day. and, like i said, it was nice because i was there. i was able to go to the v.a. for treatment and i come back to a safe place, a safe environment, where i can be my own self that wasn't dan hanson, combat marine. i was just dan. >> you mentioned in your testimony was one of the biggest struggles you had was not having the funds to complete the program. what kind of cost did it take to

attend the program for one year? >> for a year, it was about 850 -- about 850, $860 a month. so i had other priorities at the time that i was trying to pay for and, yeah, there was times i got, you know, i was behind in my payment to the minnesota teen challenge. and i asked them several times to try to fund the program, but they said that was not possible because that was a program that didn't fund. and then i tried to do some other things. and eventually, they bumped my service connection after i was done with the program. but, by that time, i was behind on all sorts of bills and, you know, it was a little bit of a disaster, financially. >> did you meet any other veterans in the program, by chance? >> yes, i met some vietnam veterans that, you know, were really struggling, that have been struggling for 30 years. i met o.i.f./. o.e.f. veterans.

there wasn't a lot of them, but there was a handful of them. i still do work with teen challenge to get veterans in there. i know that the veterans that i have had in there and that went to the program, it's a little bit easier because the structure is almost, you know, like the military where you wake up. you go to bed when they tell you. there's strict rules. if you want to get in a fight, you're gone. there's nothing to talk about. and it was something where i fit in very well because of the structure and was able to excel. >> very good. so about $10,000 a year then for the program? >> yes, sir. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman, i'll yield back. >> sergeant major? >> did you go to south st. paul high? >> yes, sir, i did. >> i coached there. we probably played against you. >> yeah, i believe we won most of the time. >> i think so, too. thank you for adding that. [ laughter ] >> but, again, thank you for your service and, again, there's

not words that we're going to share with you that are going to ease that pain other than for you to recognize that we take our responsibility very seriously here. so you're coming here and your family, your wife coming, hugely important. and i'm certainly not going to tell you that in 2003 and in the early stages of this current conflict we were ill prepared for the influx of veterans. we did not have that. what i would say is is this issue that i think we're getting at, and i think it's very important. and in the next panel, i will discuss some issues on the case for coercion versus autonomous care. but for you, this obviously worked. my approach to this, and i see this and i take it very seriously, as a senior nco, this culture of how you get there. this is a broader issue. minnesota has a long legacy in this with former senator or late senator wellstone on this idea of mental health parity.

something you should be treated for mental health issues just as if you lost a leg. we're trying to get this right. and mr. mashol brought up, i think mr. stuzman talked about this a little bit. one thing that we have to be concerned about is evidence- based policy. >> when i was in minnesota teen challenge -- oh, that was after. i apologize. i have, very loosely, i've met with psychiatrist dr. baum who has seen me since i got out in 2007. i met with him and just kind of talked about things. and then i've done physical thorn for my back and neck. as far as mental health goes, i've pretty much done no follow up. >> i wanted to assure you and make sure that you know as minnesota's only member of the delegation that's on this v.a. committee, i spend a lot of time at those.