suffered over 50 separate bullet wounds each in that ambush. the story of bonnie and clyde, like the story of john dillinger and others like that from this era really is a part of, i think, a broader social commentary about america and the great depression. if you look at crime rates in the united states, there's a definite spike that takes place, particularly in armed robberies in the early 1930s. and a lot of social scientists have been quick to ascribe that to depressed economic conditions, the fact that you have banking failures, business failures, farm closures and to the point that you could almost blame the great depression for this era of the american gangster when in fact, that's probably the reason that people followed their stories and maybe even associated some nostalgia

with them, perhaps in the same way we would the outlaws of the west. but it really is a brief period in american history where you see this. the early 1930s. >> all weekend long american history tv is featuring shreveport, louisiana. learn more about shreveport and find out where c-span's local content vehicles are going next, online at c-span.org/localcontent. you're watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. coming up next, two world war ii veterans discuss their experiences and what it means to be a member of the greatest generation. this discussion features major norman hatch. a u.s. marine corps veteran and the primary combat cinematographer for the battles of tarowa and iwo jima.

this is about an hour. >> all right, ladies and gentlemen, we are ready to proceed with two very, very interesting accounts from two members of the greatest generation. one pacific, one european theater. unfortunately clancy lile who would have been our third panelist took sick a couple of days ago and is in the hospital, so we wish him the best. and our thoughts and prayers are with clancy's family.

i'd like now to bring back as our moderator colonel bob patrick doing double duty for us. he came in and moderated a session for us yesterday. but bob is an old friend of the american veterans center. he is the man most directly responsible for raising the funds that constructed the world war ii memorial for which we thank him. he is a career military officer. before that. and now has the job of coordinating all the oral history from veterans -- veterans history project at the library of congress. so in that connection, we go back and forth a lot with the oram histories we are recording during this conference in fact. recordings are going on outside. so we can capture these great stories for future generations. so please welcome colonel bob patrick. >> thank you very much.

good morning. we have got a real treat this morning, and i have a real challenge. we have with us two members of the greatest generation. one army, one marine corps. one fought in the european theater, one was in the pacific theater. one was in both -- both of them were in very unique units, very unique situations. on my immediate left is colonel ed james. united states army veteran. member of the 506 parachute infantry regiment. was present at d-day, market garden, bastone you name it. one of the band of brothers. next to ed is major norm hatch. united states marine corps retired. an individual who held a ground-breaking position during world war ii. he was the first combat cameraman sent in by the marine corps. if you have seen a picture of

combat on tarawa, you've seen a picture of combat in iwo jima and moving pictures throughout. norm had a piece in that. that's what we're going to be talking about this morning. i've asked both of these gentlemen to start off today's panel by talking a little bit of how it all started for them, where they were at the beginning of world war ii and how they got enlisted into their various services and also caught up in the units they are with. so ed, i'm going to begin with you if you could tell wrus it all began. >> all right, sir. thank you. incidentally, i'm a member of the band of brothers. if you read it, you know that we won the war almost single handed. and i'm a big hero. if you don't believe it, read the book. and i thank you and in fact, i'm delighted to be here this morning with you people. at my age, i'm delighted to be anywhere and know where i am.

so i'll tell you about how it all started. to go back about just before pearl harbor, i was in the engineering school, navy engineering school. if you pardon the expression navy. in virginia. and a few of us knew that we were going to get into this thing before long. the war had started in europe. and we were a little antsy about what we were going to do. we knew we couldn't stay where we were. we'd have to go sooner or later. we were looking for something unique. so we all decided to join the rcaf, royal canadian air force. go up to canada, hamilton, ontario. and we made a pact with ourselves that all four of us would get in. if not, we'd all come back.

wouldn't flunk anything, physical, test, anything. we'd come back to virginia. this is prior to pearl harbor. some time in december or ladder part of november, 1941. we got in the car, went up to canada. and one of the guys had a heart murmur so we decided that we will honor our pact. we came back together. and as we were coming back it was december the 7th, pearl harbor. so we had no -- we knew then what we were going to do. we were going to have to join somewhere in our particular armed services. so we waited around. i waited around. and this thing came out of ft. monroe, virginia. a bunch of civilians came up with the idea that the public

needed something to stir up the morale of the people. pearl harbor had happened where they lost 3,500 people, 2,500 dead. a thousand of them seriously wounded. 1637 people surrendered to the japs there. and then came about corigador with 60,000 of our troops captured. 60,000! 10,000 of ours. and the america public was in a funk. a deep funk. so something had to be done. and the people at ft. monroe, that was general headquarters of the united states army. there was no such thing as defense department. and there was no pentagon. the pentagon was being built or

almost finished but not occupied. ft. monroe was general headquarters of the united states army. the civilians came up with this idea of a super regimen. finally came in to be the 506 parachute infantry regiment. made up of civilians, not army people, put in to the army after we brought them back from the civilian life and had to be physically perfect and mental capacity of 110 iq which meant that they had enough iq to go to officers candidate school if they fell out. the army was brought to this information, and they said you people are crazy. how are you going to take people out of civilian life and make

super soldiers out of them? it can't be done. it's never been done. well, they said you can probably maybe get 2,000 people to sign up for such a unit. they came up with these beautiful brochures, parachute, boots, gals on each arm jumping out of the parachute, hanging down. looked pretty good. and suckers like me and a few others bit on the thing and we joined. 7,000 people qualified originally. 7,000 for a unit that had 2500. the army still says this is crazy. but what are you going to do with them? ft. bragg said not on my territory. we don't want them. ft. benning said, no, we don't want them, and all through the army. so somebody came up with this camp to corps. camp tombs at that time named

for senator 1855 senator from georgia who preached secession ten years before the civil war. so the name of the camp had to be changed from camp toombs to camp decorps. no one heard of camp de corps. it was noted at the coffin capital of the world. we were trained to go down to camp decorps and we had to skim the cream to get enough people to satisfy the army t.o.n.e. so that's where we started. and the training was rough. we had a -- the mountain we had to run up and down that mountain three or four times a week.

seven miles round trip. if you fell out or if you walked, you were out. so they weeded them dow finally to the point where we had to go to camp -- ft. benning for jump training. and at that time, the first battalion trained from their jump training. second battalion had many -- too many men. so they devised a way to get rid of some more by having them march from camp de corps to atlanta, 119 miles in three days. get rid of some more people and officers. men and officers. they were successful in getting down to t.o.n.e. then the 3rd battalion came along and said we had much too many men. so we were going to ride to atlanta, get off at ft.

mcpherson and then walk to ft. benning 149 miles, and we were going to do it the same time that the -- 2nd battalion did from decorps to benning -- to atlanta. we walked from atlanta to bening. three days. 3 1/2 days. so that got us down to t.o.n.e. and then we started out jump training which was very rigorous. matter of fact, the jump school tried everything in the world to break our spirits. they couldn't do it. most of us, just about 97% qualified for our wings. and that's where we started, sir. >> okay. thank you, ed. norm, how about yourself? where did you start? >> i don't know that i can compete with that.

my life was a bit simpler. i graduated from high school in 1938 and that was still in the middle of the depression. so in a conversation with my father who was an engineer, we decided that i would join the navy because if you served on a capital ship, you would certainly learn anything that would be instrumental in working in civilian life. plumbing, carpenter work, anything you can think of would be aboard one of the capital ships. so that sounded reasonable. so i went down to the naval office in boston and the recruiting office and they did the usual things. i had a physical. they actually sent a senior chief out to the house to see how i was living. they wanted to be sure that they had a nice boy come in. and so they told me it would be relatively slow and stay in touch with them on when they

would take me. so this was right after i graduated from high school in '38. so every month i called in and they said, well, they've reduced the rate a little bit. and boston was the recruiting area for the whole naval district which included all of new england. and i didn't realize because they didn't tell me why i was being so slow. but it was basically because so many people had joined the army and the navy to get three meals a day and to be able to send some money home that nobody was coming out. everybody was staying in. well, anyway, a year had gone by. i had, along with another fellow had bought a ford dump truck for 75 bucks and we cared -- all over the city of boston and sold it. and -- but it was not something i wanted to do for the rest of my life. but i went down to the office in

the end of june of 1939 and i said when are you going to take me? they said, well, we don't know. they've cut us back again. out of the whole new england district, they were only taking about six or seven men a month. so, anyway, as i was leaving, i had to walk by the elevator or walk to the elevator. i had to walk by the marine corps recruiting office and on a whim, i walked in and said, sarge, if i decided to join the marine corps, how soon would you take me? he said you want to leave friday or two weeks from friday? >> i said two weeks from friday. and on the 7th of july, i raised my hand, 1939, and became a marine forever. but i first -- fortunately the high school i went to in

gloucester, massachusetts, had rotc. it was mandatory that you take it all three years from sophomore to senior. and so when i went to boot camp it was sort of like going on a parade for me. and the day i recognized that right away except for a couple of army positions i'd fall into on command, he would very nicely caution me that those were army and not do them again. and so i would breeze through that. i was destined to go to c school. i was 6'1". made a nice presentation, i guess. and c-school was sort of the dream thing of that particular time because you wore your blues most of the time and you went to many foreign ports. but having been raised in gloucester i had been aboard senior ships. learned how operated. a few of my friends were in the coast guard. i used to go upon the ice patrol and the skipper was a

four-striper in that particular case. and he was the father of one of my high school buddies. and he would throw us down in the lower decks and say, you do whatever that chief tells you to do and i don't even know you. and so i knew what navy life was like pretty much. and so i didn't want to go to c-school, but strangely enough, they always told you in those days, always read what's on the bulletin board because it will tell you what your unit is doing and what the marine corps is doing. well, a message had come on at the end of my recruit era. the last two weeks. those of white house shot expert or sharpshooter at the range did not have to go in the mess hall. but we had odd jobs to do. mine was to keep water in the officers' office which was the recruit depot at the time. because i was a new englander, i had to keep a fire in the boiler

going, and the southerners didn't know how to keep one overnight. and so i knew how to bank a fire and, in fact, i rigged a deal that my father had done on his. i had a bunch of change going through it and a clock and so on. and it would go off and raised the great so the fire would start about 3:00 in the morning and i didn't have to get up. by the time everybody was ready to take a shower and shave, the water was piping hot. but, anyway, the things on the bulletin board i read one day said they were looking for an english instructor at the marine corps institute. i wrote a letter saying i'd like to be one and i sent it in. and then forgot about it. and one day, something happened which happened all through my life. the d.i. came rushing out. what in the hell have you been doing? i said, i don't know. what have i been doing?

i've gots orders to ship you t be an english instructor. what kind of marine is that? >> i came here to washington. became part of the units that served in ceremonies and also funerals and things of that sort. but also an english instructor for the marine corps institute. and the marine corps institute is still going today. i had an opportunity a little later on about six months later to join the staff of a magazine right downstairs from us where we lived. but i went and was able to effect a trade and position and what have you. and i guess they figured because i was in the english department i'd be able to read and write. so that was a pretty small office in those days. but i learned publishing and i thought that was a very good thing to do because somewhere along the lines i might need it. but then another guy that lived

next to me in the barracks worked in the office of public relations in those days, which was in main navy on constitution avenue and one long building built during world war i was supposed to have been knocked down afterwards. but it was still there. and the army was the other extent at that time. it was the headquarters for the army. and so it taught me a lot. the whole business of public affairs. and all during this time of being at the barracks here and moving along the line, something came up on the bulletin board that said that there was a new school started called the march of times school of pictorial journalism. that sounded great to me. i had never shot movies before or anything like that. the march of time for those of you who don't recognize the name or know it was the leading film

company that told stories by film to keep the public informed of what was happening maybe somewhere in europe or south america. didn't make any difference. if the story was good, they covered it. and that actually covered hit lear and a lot that he did. they did seven stories on him. and tried to keep the public here. and you got to remember the public in those days was very limited. it was mostly farming. was some mechanical. and then mostly mining. coal and so forth and so on. cars for the engineering and production. and then a great deal of -- and they knew little about what was happening both in this country and out of this country. so the march of time was a film that people would go to. they'd wait, even if there might be a good movie on, they'd wait until the march of time came on once a month to go to the theater to see that. well, anyway i was really intrigued and applied for it but

i was turned down because i had no experience. for those of you in the military will understand that it said on the bulletin board, no experience required. so, anyway, i was turned down once when i worked at -- actually twice. once at the mci and then turned down when i was a leatherneck. now i'm working at the navy department and i have applied and i just don't know what i'll do if i get turned down for the third time. but the president called in a group of reserve officers and one of the reserve officers that came in to work in the navy department took over what was called the news reels section. and he was a director at the march of time. so when i learned that, i went back and told him his name was brown. i told lieutenant brown what my problem was. and asked if we'd go to lunch and talk it over. and in those days, pfcs and lieutenants didn't go to lunch together but he said, yes, we could. i told my story and he said,

tell you what, now let's see what happens. well, about four days later, my executive officer, lieutenant gordon, came in the office and said, norman, i'm sorry to tell you you've been turned down for the third time. i went back and saw alan brown and said, lieutenant, what do i do? he said i've got the send some film over to the producer of the march of time. so that the film he's asked for the navy because of a story you're doing. tell him your story and you can meet him. i went over there, the hotel. a couple of norwegian air force cameramen with him he was training. and i talked to him and everything was fine. i told alan brown, i doubt that anything is going to happen. this is just a very pleasant thing. two days later, that same familiar phrase, lieutenant gordon comes steaming in the office and said, norm, what in the hell have you been doing? i looked at him.

lieutenant, i don't know. what have i been doing? he said i got orders to transfer you to new york immediately for the october 1st joining of the march of time class. and there were two other marines that had been sent up from a brand new training unit which had been formed down at quantico. now this is a very important thing. up until this time, in early 1941, the marine corps had not had any photographic capability officially set up. but a captain on the west coast who was in an anti-aircraft organization had a motion picture camera attached to his ear because that photographed where his shooting was taking place at the droned they were carrying for him to hit the targets. and he got to thinking that that would be handy for making

training films because most of our films we got were from the army and there were some times things in the army training films we couldn't use. we were in essence told to hold our hands over our face like this. don't look at them. so we didn't get, you know, infused with them in any way. but he sat down and wrote a letter to the commandant directly which was very ununusual those days and outlined a group of things he thought should be done. he also indicated because he thought there might be a war that we also have training for combat cameramen at the same time. the commandant loved the thing and he annotated every request. he came back and said you are completely accepted. now you are transferred from california to washington to put it together. never a volunteer. so anyway, he came in. he went to some army units who were local in the area. learned how they processed film. what they did. he helped them in a training film out in middle of the state

of pennsylvania and so forth and so on. when he came back, he told the commandant. i can't do anything here. wife got to take it to quantico to do it. so that's when i was trying to get in. the people they were sending up to the march of times were training, were coming out of this infancy -- in its infancy setup at quantico. and so when i joined it and went up to new york to be training in the march of time, there were only about 20 people at quantico in the photographic business. by the war's end, we had 600 in 3 1/2 years. you can imagine the expansion. but that's how i got into photography. and when i was through after the six-month training up there and a little layover to help train the new guys coming in, i came to quantico and we were making training films. and then i was sent to the 2nd marine division which was

completely forming on the west coast. and later it wound up in new zealand for 11 months of training, and that's another story. >> thanks. >> so that's how it all began for both of them. let's jump forward a little bit in time. ed, i want you to talk about d-day. where were you on d-day? >> on d-day. i was at exitor, england, on june the 5th, 1944. i was briefing the battalion by companies, by platoons, by squads, individuals on the sand table. i was the operations sergeant of the battalion. and i had fabricated the sand table to indicate the positions

where we were to jump and our objectives and our drop zones. i had 18 people to help me fascricate tfasc -- fabricate the sand table. we did a great job. the only problem is no one landed anywhere near the sand table on d-day. because the air force took evasive actions when the flack came up. and there was one plane, by the way, that did make the jump zone. the drop zone. and that was the plane that i was going to be on. that was where my battalion commander was killed. his feet never touched the ground. he landed