know, opened fire on the car that they were riding in. and bonnie and clyde both suffered over 50 separate bullet wounds each in that ambush. the story of bonnie and clyde, like the story of john dillinger and others like that from this era, really is a part of i think a broader social commentary about america and the great depression. if you look at crime rates in the united states, there's a definite spike that takes place particularly in armed robberies in the early 1930s. and a lot of social scientists have been quick to ascribe that to depressed economic conditions, the fact that you have banking failures, business failures, farm closures, and to the point that you could almost blame the great depression for this era of the american gangster. when in fact that's probably the reason that people followed

their stories and maybe even associated some nostalgia with it, the same way we do with the outlaws of the old west. but it really is a very brief period in american history where you see this, the early 1930s. all weekend along, american history tv is featuring shreveport, louisiana. learn more about shreveport and find out where cspan's local content vehicles are going next. online at cspan.org/localcontent. you're watching "american history tv," all weekend, every weekend, on cspan 3. coming up next, two world war ii veterans reflect on their experiences and discuss what it means to be a member of the greatest generation. this discussion features colonel ed shames, a u.s. army veteran in the european theater, and major norman hatch, a u.s.

marine corps veteran and the primary combat cinematographer for the battles of tarawa and iwo jima. this is about an hour. all right, ladies and gentlemen. we are ready to proceed with two very, very interesting accounts from two members of the greatest generation, one in the pacific and one in the european theater. unfortunately, our third panelist, took sick a couple of

days ago and is in the hospital. so we wish him the best and our thoughts and prayers are with clancy lyall's family. i would like to bring back colonel bob patrick, doing double duty for us. he moderated a session yesterday. bob is an old friend of the american veterans center. he is the man most directly responsible for raising the funds that constructed the world war ii memorial for which we thank him. he is a career military officer. before that. and now has the job of coordinating all the oral histories from veterans, in the veterans history project, at the library of congress. so in that connection we go back and forth a lot with the oral histories that we are recording all during this conference, in fact. recordings are going on outside so we can capture these great stories for future generations. so please welcome colonel bob patrick. [ applause ]

good morning. we have got a real treat this morning. and i have a real challenge. we have with us two members of the greatest generation. one army, one marine corps. one fought in the european theater. one was in the pacific theater. one was in -- both of them were in very unique units, very unique situations. on my immediate left is colonel ed shames, united states army veteran, member of the 506 parachute infantry regiment. was present at d-day, market garden, beth stone, you name it. one of the band of brothers. next to ed is major norm hatch. united states marine corps retiree. an individual who helpd a

groundbreaking position during world war ii. he was the first combat cameraman sent in by the marine corps. if you have seen a picture of combat on terawa or a picture of combat in iwo jima, you have seen moving pictures, norm had a piece in that. so that's what we're going to be talking about this morning. i have asked both of these gentlemen to start off today's panel by talking a little bit about how it all started for them. how they -- where they were at the beginning of world war ii and how they got enlisted into their various services and also the units they were with. ed, i'll start with you. if you can tell us where it all began. >> all right, thank you. incidentally, i'm a member of the band of brothers. if you read it, you know that we won the war almost single-handedly, and i'm a big hero. if you don't believe it, read the book. and i thank you. in fact, i'm delighted to be here this morning with you

people. at my age, i'm delighted to be anywhere and know where i am. so i'll tell you about how it all started. just before pearl harbor, i was in the engineering school, navy engineering school, if you pardon the expression navy. in norfolk, virginia. and a few of us knew that we were going to get into this thing before long, the war had started in europe. and we were a littleants about what we were going to do. we knew that we couldn't stay where we were. we were going to have to go, sooner or later. we were looking for something unique. we all decided to join the royal air force, and we made a pact with ourselves that all four of

us would get in. if not, we all come back. if one flunked anything, test, physical, what have you, we'd all come back to virginia. this was prior to pearl harbor. sometime in december or latter part of november, 1941. we got in the car, went up to canada. and one of the guys had a problem, so we decided to honor our pact. we came back together. and as we were coming back, it was december 7, pearl harbor. so we had no idea -- we knew then what we were going to do. we were going to have to join somewhere in our particular armed serves. so we waited around. i waited around. and this thing came out of fort

monroe, virginia. a bunch of civilians came up with the idea that the public needed something to stir up the morale of the people. pearl harbor had happened, where they lost 3,500 people, 2,500 dead. thousands of them seriously wounded. wake island, 1,637 people surrendered to the japs there. and then came about 60,000 of our troops, filipinos and americans, captured. 60,000. 10,000 of ours. and the american public was in a funk, a deep funk. so something had to be done. and the people at fort monroe, that was general headquarters of

the united states army. there's no such thing as defense department. and there was no pentagon. the pentagon was being built or almost finished, but not occupied. fort monroe was the general headquarters of the united states army. the civilians came up with this idea of a super regiment. finally, came into being, the 506 parachute infantry regiment, made up of civilians, people out of civilian life, not army people, put into the army after we brought them back from the civilian life, and had to be physically perfect and mental capacity of 110 i.q., which meant that they had enough i.q. to go to officers' candidate school if they fell out. the army was brought to this

information, and they said, you people are crazy. how are you going to take people out of civilian life and make super soldiers out of them? it can't be done. it's never been done. well, they said you can probably maybe get 2,000 people to sign up for such a unit. they came up with these beautiful brochures, parachutes, boots, gals on each arm, jumping out of the parachute, you know, suckers like he ame and a few others bit on the thing, and we joined. 7,000 people qualified originally. 7,000. for a unit that had only 25800. the -- 2,500. the army still says this is crazy. but what are you going to do with them? ft. bragg said not on my territory. we don't want them. ft. benning said, no, we don't want them. and all through the army.

so somebody came up with this camp tecor. camp tombs at that time, named for an 1855 senator from georgia, who preached secession 10 years before the civil war. so the name of the camp was changed. so we had a place to stay. no one had heard of that fort. it was noted as the coffin capital of the world. we were trained from rhode island to camp decor, and we had to skim the scream to get enough people to satisfy the army po & e. well, that's where we started. and the training was rough.

you had the mountain that we had to run up and down three or four times a week. seven miles round trip. if you fell out or if you walked, you were out. so they weighted them down. finally to the point where we had to go to camp of ft. benning for jump training. and at that time, the first battalion took the train from decor to bening. for their jump training. second battalion had too many men, so they devised a way to get rid of some more by having a march from camp decor to atlanta, 119 miles in three days. to get rid of some more people and officers, men and officers. they were successful in getting down. and then the third battalion came along and said, we had much

too many men. so we were going to ride through atlanta, get off at fort mcpherson, and then walk to ft. benning 149 miles, and we were going to do it at the same time that the second battalion did from decor to bening to atlanta. we walked from atlanta to bening. three days. 3 1/2 days. so that got us down to to & e. and then we started our jump training. which was very rigorous. as a matter of fact, the jump school tried everything in the world to break our spirit. most of us just about 99% qualified for our wings, and that's where we started, sir. >> ok. thank you, ed. norm, how about yourself?

where did you start? >> i don't know whether i can compete with that. >> yeah. >> my life was a little bit simpler. i graduated from high school in 1938. and that was still in the middle of the depression. and so in a conversation with my father who was an engineer, we decided i would join the navy because if you served on the capital ship, you would certainly learn anything that would be instrumental in working in civilian life, plumbing,en c entry, anything you can think of. so i went down to the recruiting office and they did the usual things. i took a physical, and they actually sent a senior chief out to the house to see how i was living. they wanted to be sure that they had a nice boy come in.

and so they told me it was relatively slow, and to stay in touch with them. and they would take me. so this was right after i graduated from high school in '38. and so every month, i called in and they said, well, they have reduced the rate a little bit. and boston was the recruiting area for the whole naval district, which included all of new england. and i didn't realize that because they didn't tell me why, why it was so slow, but it was basically because so many people had joined the army and the navy to get three meals a day and to be able to send money home that nobody was coming out, everybody was staying in. so anyway, a year had gone by. i had along with another fellow bought a ford dump truck for $75 and we carried loam all over the city of boston and sold it.

but it was not something i wanted to do for the rest of my life. but anyway, i went down to the office in the end of june of 1939, and i said, when are you going to take me? and they said well, we don't know. they have cut us back again. out of the whole new england district, they were only taking about six or seven men a month. so anyway, as i was leaving, i had to walk to the elevator and walk by the marine corps recruiting office. and on a whim, i walked in and said if i decide to join the marine corps, how soon will you take me? and he said do you want to leave friday or two weeks from friday? and i said two weeks from friday. and on the 7th of july i raised my hand in 1939 and became a marine forever. but i first -- fortunately, the high school i went to in boston,

massachusetts, was the oldest one in the country having junior rotc. and it was mandatory that you take it for three -- all three years from sophomore to senior. and so when i went to boot camp, it was sort of like going on a parade for me. they recognized that right away. except for a couple of army positions i would fall into on command, he was very nicely caution me that those were army and not do them again. and so i breezed through that. and i was destined to go to c school. i was 6'1", made a nice presentation i guess. and c school was sort of the dream thing of that particular time because you wore your blues most of the time and went to many foreign ports and that sort of thing. but having been raised in gloucester, i had been aboard ships and learned how they operated. a couple of my very best friends were in the coast guard.

and i used to go at christmas time up on the ice patrol and the skipper was a four striper in that particular case. and he was the father of one of my high school buddies. he would throw us down in the lower decks and say, you do whatever that chief tells you to do and i don't even know you. so i knew what navy life was like pretty much. and so i didn't want to go to c school. but strangely enough they always told you in those days always read what's on the bulletin board because it will tell you what your unit is doing and what the marine corps is doing. well, a message had come on at the end of my recruit era. the last two weeks, those of us who shot expert or sharpshooter at the range did not have to go in the mess hall. but we had odd jobs to do. mine was to keep water in the officers' offices of the east wing, which was the recruit depot at that time.

and because i was a new englander, i had to keep a fire in the boiler going. and the southerners didn't know how to keep one overnight. and so i knew how to bank a fire, and in fact i rigged a deal that my father had done on his. i had a bunch of chains going through it and a clock and so forth and so on, and it would go off and raise the grate so that the fire could really start about 3:00 in the morning with the coals that i had in there and i didn't have to get up. by the time everybody was ready to take a shower and shave, the water was piping hot. anyway, the things on the bulletin board that i read one day said that they were looking for an english instructor at the marine corps institute. so i wrote a letter saying i'd like to be one and sent it in. and i forgot about it. one day something happened which happened all through my life. the di came rushing out of his

office and said, what in the hell have you been doing? i said i don't know. what have i been doing, sergeant? he said i got orders to ship you to washington to be an english instructor. what the hell kind of marine is that? so i went up there, came here to washington, became part of the unit that served in ceremonies and also funerals and things of that sort. but also an english instructor for the marine corps institute. and the marine corps institute is still going today. and i had an opportunity a little later on, about six months later, to join the staff of leather neck magazine, which was right downstairs from us where we lived. i was able to effect a trade and position and what have you, and i guess they figured because i was in the english department i would be able to read and write for the leather neck. that was a pretty small office in those days, but i learned

publishing. and i thought that was a very, very good thing to do because somewhere along the line i might need it. but then another guy that slept next to me in the barracks worked up at the navy department in the office of public relations in those days. which was in on constitution avenue in one long building that was built during world war i and was supposed to have been knocked down but it was still there. the army was the other extent at that time. it was the headquarters for the army. and so it taught me a lot, the business of public affairs. and all during this time of being at the barracks here and moving along the line, something came up on the bulletin board that said that there was a new school started called the march of time school of pictorial journalism. that sounded great to me. i had never shot movies before or anything like that. the march of time for those of

you who don't recognize the name or know it was the leading film company that told stories by film to keep the public informed on what was happening maybe somewhere in europe or somewhere in south america. didn't make any difference. if the story was good, they covered it. and they actually covered hitler and a lot that he did. they did seven stories on him. and to try to keep the public here. and you have to remember the public in those days was very limited. it was mostly farming. it was some mechanical. and then mostly mining. coal and so forth and so on. cars were for the engineering and production. and then a great deal of farming. and they knew very little of what was happening in this country and out of this country. so march of time was a film that people would go to and wait, even if there might be a good movie on, they would wait until

that came on once a month to see that. well, anyway, i was really intrigued. and i applied for it but i was turned down because i had no experience. for those of you in the military will understand that it said on the bulletin board no experience required. so anyway, i was turned down once when i worked then. and i was turned down -- well, actually twice, at the amci and then at leather neck. and now i'm working at the navy department, and i have applied. and i just don't know what i'll do if i get turned down for the third time. but the president called in a group of preserve officers, and one of the reserve officer has came in to work at the navy department and took over what was called the news reel section. and he was a director at the march of time. so when i learned that, i went back and told him -- his name was brown. i told lieutenant brown what my problem was and asked if we could go to lunch and talk it

over. in those days, pfcs and lieutenants didn't go to lunch together, but he said yes, we could. i told him my story and he said, i'll tell you what. let's see what happens. well, about four days later, my executive officer, lieutenant gordon, came in the office and said, norm, i'm sorry to tell you, you've been turned down for the third time. i went back and saw lieutenant brown and said, what do i do? and he said well, i sent some film over to the producer of the march of time so that -- a film that he has asked for from the navy because of a story he's doing. and i'll tell him your story and you can meet him. i went over there to the hotel. he had a couple of norwegian air force cameramen with him hie wa training. i talked to him, and everything was fine. i came back and i told allen brown and i said, i doubt that anything is going to happen. you know, this was just a very pleasant thing. two days later, that same

familiar phrase, lieutenant gordon comes steaming in the office and said, warren, what in the hell have you been doing? and i looked at him and said, i don't know, what have i been doing? he said i got orders to transfer you to new york immediately for the october 1 joining of the march of time class. and there were two other marines that had been sent up from a brand-new training unit, which had been formed down at quantico. now, this is a very important thing. up until this time, early 1941, the marine corps had not had any photographic capability officially set up. but a captain on the west coast who was in an anti-aircraft organization had a motion picture camera attached to him here because that photographed where his shooting was taking place at the drones they were

carrying, the aircraft were carrying, for him to hit the targets. and he got to thinking that would be handy for making training films because most of our films that we got were from the army and there was sometimes that things in the army training films that we couldn't use. we were in essence told to put our hands over our face. don't look at them. so, you know, we couldn't get infused with them in any way. but he sat down and wrote a letter to the commandant directly, which was very unusual in those days, and outlined a group of things he thought should be done. and also indicated that he thought because of the pending war that we also have training for combat cameramen at the same time. well, the commandant loved the thing and he accommodated every request. he came back and said you are completely accepted in everything you have done. you are transferred from california to washington. so he came in. he went to some army units who were local in the area, learned

how they processed film, what they did. he helped them in a training film out in the middle of the state of pennsylvania and so forth and so on. when he came back, he told the commandant he said i can't do anything here. i have to take it to quantico to do it. so that's when i was trying to get in. the people they were sending up to the march of time for training were coming out of this in its infancy to set up at quantico. so when i joined it and went up to new york to do training in the march of time, there were only about 20 people at quantico in the photographic business. so by the war's end, we had 600 in 3 1/2 years, if you can imagine the expansion. but that's how i got into photography. and when i was through after the six-month training up there, and a little layover to help train the new guys coming in, i came

to quantico and we were making training films. and then i was sent to the second marine division, which was completely forming on the west coast. and later, it wound up in new zealand for 11 months of training, and that's another story. >> thanks. so that's how it all began for both of them. let's jump forward a little bit in time. ed, i want you to talk about d-day. where were you on d-day? >> on d-day. i was at exeter, england, on june 4, 1944. i was briefing the battalion by companies, by platoons, by squads, indivuals, on the sand table. i was the operations sergeant of the battalion.

and i had fabricated the sand table to indicate positions where we were to jump in our objectives and our drop zones. i had 18 people to help me fabricate the sand table, and we did a magnificent job. it's only one problem. nobody landed anywhere near the sand table on d-day. because the air force took evasive actions when the flak came up. and there was one plane, by the way, that did make the jump zone. the drop zone. and that was the plane that i was going to be on. that was where my italian