because you suggested that some of this you want to go into on closed session, but let me ask, does russia have a physical presence in syria as part of their arm's sales business? >> they do. >> and what specifically, secretary panetta, is russia's interest in syria? >> they have had long standing economic and military relationships in syria, and as we said, the port there in syria is owned by the russians, it's their port. so they have had a lot of shipping that is going in over there over the years, they have transferred not only military, aide, but economic assistance as well. so, they have had a very long standing relationship with syria that makes them as i said, one

of the key players in they wanted to assert you know, the kind of responsibility they should, they would be a key player in bringing pressure on assad. >> let me transition you a bit to the department of defense's business transactions with this same firm i mentioned earlier. rosoboron export, they are engaged in military sales of russian weapons to assad's regime. reportedly, the company has signed a deal with the syrian government to is sell it 36 combat jets capable of hitting civilian ground targets can you confirm that? >> i can't. i would have to look into that. >> i don't mean to blind side you i'll share with you this article and i would be

interested in following up in greater detail. the company was sanctioned by the united states in october 2008 for assisting the nuclear program but those sanctions were lifted by the department of state in 2010. this is what i wanted to get to, it's my understanding that the department of defense through an initiative led by the u.s. army is buying dual use m-1 -- excuse me, m-i-17 helicopters from this same company. i would like to know whether either of you can confirm this as that point? >> no. but i can confirm that we are buying m-i-17s for the afghan military but i cannot done firm that is the corporation providing them. >> thank you.

can you explain why we would buy helicopters from the afghan military from this arm's exportser that has been sanctioned by the u.s. govern for its activities with iran and the principal means by which russia is arming assad's regime and killing so many civilians. >> i have to confirm that we are, assuming we are, as the process goes in a competition, if they are not sanctioned and enter the competition, they could very well be that they ended up being the lowest bidder and therefore they could very well have been selected. but i have to confirm that and get back to you, senator. >> i understand that. if in fact this article is correct, this means that instead of creating jobs and selling american helicopters to the afghan military we are working

with a russia arm's of courexpo sell these helicopters that makes to sense to me. but, as you said, and as i said, i do not want to blindside you with this information, i would like to get in explanation, if in fact this report is true, that this same arms dealer is arming assad's regime and killing innocent syrians, and also under a contract with the united states department of defense, to provide helicopters to the afghan military, that causes me significant concerns and i'm -- i bet it does you too. and so i would like to get to the bottom of that. if you'll help me do that. general dempsey, you talked about the need to balance the risks of intervening in syria

with other parts of the region. what would -- what would happen if assad were to fall and force his democracy begins to take roots, what would that do to iran's goals in the region, what would that do to hezbollah, a terrorist organization supported by iran, what would that that do to hamas and what that do to lebanon, what would be the impact that you would hope for in the region? >> well, as general mattis testified yesterday, it would certainly diminish iran's influence in the region and set back their goal of becoming a regional leader dramatically. >> mr. chairman, thank you very much. thank you, gentlemen.

>> thank you very much, senator bloomenthall is next. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you bother to your forthright and careful and cautious approach to this problem. and i think many of us are approaching this issue with a high degree of hu millity because of the lack of information and looking for as you brief us in a more secure setting. even with all that care and caution, i'm struck, mr. secretary, by the conviction that the regime will fall, you said that they will meet their end. there are few things in life that are inevitable and right

now the assad regime seems to be on the march and seems to have momentum on its side and you described how this opposition is less organized than the libyan and so, i think that is the reason that many of us here feel that we need to do more. that is united states needs to take a more aggressive and pro active role in this fight without, and i should stress, without american troops on the ground. no boots on the ground. and that is the reason that senator graham and i are planning to introduce and co-sponsor a resolution that will ask for condemnation assad for the war crimes he is inflicting on his people, the brutal and bar baric criminal

actions about his own people and slaughter and massacre that will seek sending that message that the united states will support the syrian people, but there needs to be more than just words here, let me begin by asking, whether there's currently planning for the deliveryy of medical and other aide to the opposition? >> yes, there is. and let me mention also with regards to your prefacing remarks. look, it's always dangerous to make predictions in that part of the world, what i'm giving you is the best assessment by our intelligence community as to the situation there in syria, but i think that you should not take it for granted that somehow we are going to sit back and allow

the status quo to be the case. we are working very hard at trying to build the international coalition that we need. we are working hard at aide, we are working hard to try to bring additional pressure on syria in order to ensure that assad steps aside. >> is aide being delivered now? >> we are delivering elements of aide as we speak. >> and how much? can you quantify it? >> $10 million was the case that we had, let me give you in homs alone, we have usg partners that have delivered food 4,000 households and medical supplies, and we a we are working to getting greater access to provide

additional aide. >> how quickly and in what quantities could that aide be increased? >> let me give you a -- i'm going to have to look at that and give you a more direct answer based on what is state department and a.i.d.are doing right now. >> is planning under way to increase the aide? ? yes. >> on communications equipment which seems essential is for them to launch a coordinated defense and offense, what is being done to provide communications equipment? >> i would prefer to discuss that in a closed session, but i can tell you that we are considering an array of n

nonlethal assistance? . >> with respect to other technical assistance, is other technical assistance being provided? >> it -- plans are being made to provide an array of nonlethal assistance including technical assistance. >> and general dempsey has very with well described the time that it would take to supress the aerial defense, but i take it that issue is not an obstacle to providing these other kinds of assistance? >> that's correct. >> it could be done immediately? >> that's correct. >> and i would appreciate additional information to this committee as to what can be done

within what timeframes short of aerial strikes. is there support among any of the potential allies in military action for the kind of planning that you would be looking for, or are specific countries volunteering specific contributions in potential military action? >> that again is something that we would prefer to discuss in closed session. but there have been discussions in other countries about that. >> so that planning is under way, fair to say? >> i don't want to -- i would rather discuss that in closed session. >> i would say it's rising to the willful of -- >> in order to do planning you would have to engage in that consultation, is that fair to say? turning to the resolution that

senator graham and i have proposed, would that resolution, a sense of the senate that there should be an investigation and prosecution of assad for war crimes have an encouraging and positive effect for the is syrian people to resist the regime? >> i prefer you direct that to the state department, because of the negotiating that they are doing on a broader international front, you need to ask them the question whether this is helpful. >> we will do that. let me close because my time has expired. but i would to say i share the concerns about the sales of equipment by the same company that is arming the syrians to

the iraqi government helicopters that are being sold to the iraqi government by the same company that is acting on behalf of the russian government to arm the syrians and i share his concern that there appears to be a less than compelling reason to use return an helicopters sold by this company in afghanistan, when we could be selling our own helicopters to them. and i ask also, mr. chairman that an additional article on that subject be made a part of the record, it's a july 24, 2011 article from the "washington times" involved pro russia stalls afghanistan helicopters. >> if those reports are true, we

will share your same concern. >> there's no denial in the reports that it's no true, there's no denial from any official sources and i hope we would have a response. thank you so much for your service to the country and you are is very helpful testimony. -- and your very helpful testimony. thank you. >> because we would all be very much concerned with the issue that senator has raised and was just mentioned, we would hope you get us the detail on that forth with. mr. graham? >> i asked that question when i was over in afghanistan a year or two ago and i was told the helicopter in question was a better fit for the afghan military they were of maintenance and capabilitity, so that may not be the case if an american helicopter fits the need, i'm all for them buying

from us. the senator made a good observation, i do not think that any of us believe that boots to ground is a good idea rkgood ids what i would like to do is kind of build on when he ask you, he asked a good question. you basically said, mr. secretary that assad should be viewed as a war criminal, i think that is a good analysis to take. in february there was a report issued, 72 pages but this is the sum and substance of it to me, such violations, talking about the gross human rights violations, originated from paumss and directives issued at the highest levels of the government and armed forces government.

do you agree with that? >> yes. >> the problem is if you go after him, maybe itten trenches him. but i have come to understands that he will do what he will do, but from his point of view, he believes that he is rational and trying to kill as many people as we can, and wait us out and hope we walk away. i think it would be good for the syrian people to know that the international community views what is being done to them is an outrage, and they would get support that we all saw what happened to them is unacceptable. i think it would help them. let's into the situation of what happens after he leaves. do you believe, secretary and general, that the people are going through the pain and suffering at the end of the day

to replace assad with al qaeda? >> no. no nor do i. >> the real concern we have is that there are minorities, the alawites, that would be on the receiving end of reprise alabamalabama -- repriseales if we are not careful. >> that's correct. >> are we guiding a sort of plan or are we involved with them? >> well, obviously, that is -- that is the biggest challenge is to because we are pretty desperate group -- >> are we trying to create rdorr out of chaos, somebody will bet on the stock that follows assad and i want to be on the ground floor of this new enterprise. >> that the right. >> i don't want to just show up after it's over. i want to get ready now and try

to mold the outcome and you do not have to have boots on the ground to do that. when it comes to what happens next, do you believe that if assad was replaced by the will of the international community, led by the united states, that that may be -- that may do more good regarding iran's goals for nuclear we nuclear weapons than sanctions that we had the resolve to take their a ally down? >> it would add to the impact of the sanctions to have this happen. in showing that ining that the. >> i cannot help but believe a that if their ally went down, because the united states said enough is enough, and did reasonable things to take him down that that would not have a positive impact. now, when it comes to planning,

senator bloomen thall asked what we are doing and planning, am i wrong to aassume that from your testimony, the president of the united states has not requested military plan regarding engagin? >> no, that's not correct. he -- the president of the united states, through the national security staff, has asked us to begin the commander's estimate, the estimate of the situation. >> that's good. so there is movement and process in dod to provide the president some options. is that correct? >> correct. >> okay. now, when it comes to china and russia, do you believe they will ever change their tune at the u.n., that we'll ever get them on board for a u.n. resolution like we had in libya regarding syria? >> you know, i don't think it's totally out of the question. i think both countries -- >> if you were a betting man -- >> both countries have been

embarrassed by the stand. >> they can withstand a lot of embarrassment. >> yeah. so if you were a betting man do you believe they will ever come on board? >> i -- you know, if russia wants to maintain its contacts with syria, maintain their port and have some involvement whatever government replaces assad, i think they might be thinking about an approach that would allow them to have some impact on where this goes. i don't rule it out, that they wouldn't -- >> would you say that should not be our only option, that we could come up with a contingency plan in case russia doesn't make up one day and realize they're on the wrong side of history, we have another way of engaging without china and russia. >> absolutely. >> let's talk about the arab league. the arab league has changed mightily in the last year, haven't they, given their

involvement in the mideast? >> they sure have. >> do you believe arab league was in association with dictorial regimes, that now are betting on the right side of history and they see assad as being on the wrong side of history and that's incredibly encouraging? >> absolutely. >> don't you think in our long-term national security interests, we have the window in time here to marry up with the arab league in terms of military, humanitarian, economic, follow them assistance to the countries have people who are saying, i'm tired of being led by dictators and are we doing enough to seize that moment in history? >> i can assure you that secretary clinton and i are working with our arab league partners trying to do everything we can to develop and maintain

the coalition that was establish we'd libya, but to maintain it as a continuing influence over what happens elsewhere in that region. >> and my final thought is that if the slaughter continues, i do believe that the world, including the united states, has the capability to neutralize the slaughter through air power. and given the way the world is and the way syria is, is there a likelihood, even a remote possibility, that if we engaged the artillery forces and the tank drivers who are killing people who basically have ak-47s, that maybe the other people in tanks would get out and quit if we blew up a few of them? >> there's certainly that possibility. >> i think that is high likelihood. thank you both for your service. >> thank you, senator graham. senator shaheen.

>> thank you, secretary. general dempsey, thank you both very much for being here. i want to follow up on the issues that have been raised about arms shipments from russia and china. reports are that 30% of syrian arms come from china and north korea. and you talked a little bit about the russian perspective, but i'm not clear whether we think there's any way to engage the chinese on this issue. and is the -- is this something the international community has developed a strategy on for how to prevent or reduce future arm shipments from russia and china. >> the international community is concerned about what you just discussed. and i think the international community led by the united states is trying to engage both russia and china to try to see if we can change their approach to syria.

>> senator, if i could, we said here this morning that it's very clear and documented that russia has an arm sale agreement with syria. we've also said we need to get back to on whether china is. i don't know the answer to that question. >> that comes from published reports. i appreciate ed what you both had to say about our efforts around humanitarian aid. i think most of using looking at the pictures, the reports on the news, the pictures in the newspapers of the slaughter that's going on inside syria are very concerned about the cost in human lives, particularly for civilians, the women and children who have been killed. and obviously as the result, there have been a lot of thousands of refugees who are going over the borders. first of all, is there more they

should be doing to address those refugees who are fleeing as well as the humanitarian efforts on the ground in syria that you talked about? and then can you also address concerns that we might have about the disstabilizing effect that refugees might have particularly in lebanon? >> we are doing everything we can to expand the humanitarian effort. there is more that can be done and that needs to be done. indeed, one of the options we're looking at is whether or not to establish these humanitarian zones, to try to assist the refugees in a more effective way. the refugee flows, if they continue it at the rate that we see, are clearly going to have an impact on the neighboring countries. we've already seen that happen.

>> and can i add, senator, one other thing, having liftd over there for more than five years, refugees, because of family and tribal relationships, they -- they're hard to pin down, actually, how many and where they are because they blend in. >> sure. >> so during the iraq war there were many iraqi/sunni refugees who flow into syria. many of them are flowing back now. we think maybe 15,000 from syria into jordan, maybe 10,000 into lebanon, 10,000 into turkey. it's not as though they set up camp someplace. the way you first learn about it is when they put demands on the host nation medical system and some other things. to a t. answer to the question is, yes, of course there's more we can do and should. we've got to do it through the host nations because they really understand this in a way that we can't. >> how engaged are the arab league and the european

community in supporting these kinds of humanitarian efforts? >> they're very engaged. and we are working with the international community and the arab league in addressing the humanitarian issue. >> thank you. >> to go on to syria's weapons arsenal, i know that there have been reports that they have the biggest chemical weapon arsenal in the world. i had a chance to ask general mattis about this yesterday, about what concerns we have, should assad fall, about the security of those arsenals and what potential threat to the rest of the region they might present. can you all address that? >> i can address it in great detail in closed session. >> okay. well, i appreciate that.

senator collins and gillibrand and i sent letters expressing this. >> senator, look, there's no question that it got huge stockpiles and that if it got into the wrong hands it would -- it would really be a threat to the security not only in the regional countries but to the united states. >> can you -- recognize that you don't want to address this in an open session, but can you compare it to the situation that we found in libya last year? i know we -- 20,000 man pads disappeared in libya so how do we compare with that situation? >> it's 100 times worse than what we dealt in with libya. and for that reason that's why it's raised even greater concerns about our ability to address how we can secure those sights. >> thank you. and are there