point that the justice department wouldn't defend cases that it didn't feel were justified and did that happen often? >> sure. >> not often enough perhaps for many. it was in every a.g. memo from '77 to '81, to reno in october of '93 to ashcroft in october of 2001 and now to holder in 2009. it's in every memo. that's the legal standard that's set there. >> it was my understanding that when this one came up, it did not even go very high up the line. the united states attorney talked to his supervisor and went back and said, hey, agency, we're not going to defend this. >> it was the beginning of bush three. >> that is an example. i don't know if miriam's had many terror stories like that. that is one of the exceptionally rare cases where they would not

take our advice. most of the time they would. >> dick used to love, more than anything else when we'd have to get on the phone, i was telling this to someone earlier this afternoon and tell no less a gust or percentage than aadmira you're flying wrong. he was only a colonel. general -- he loved that. >> i was in the military reserve. i was always word about the word getting back. >> high draft number. >> i know, i know. >> 98. >> i think there's time right now. in fact it is -- >> no, it's not. >> i can't believe you're doing this to me. >> you're trying to avoid my question like you tried to avoid my appeals, dick. >> i thought i responded to every one of your appeals, denying a huge share of them. >> there's a lot of blood on those 70,000 of them. no, i want to thank you for your

service on those. we always felt that we got a good hearing on our appeals, even if we didn't get the right answer over the years. but i guess the question with the both of you here, i guess the question i'd like to put to you is to think and to maybe expound, if you will, a little bit about the role of the justice department in -- as a model and a leadership role for the entire federal foia process government-wide as well as in the world but specifically government-wide. let me tell you why i'm asking this question, which is currently there is some debate, and one of the critics is sitting at the panel here about the justice department's numbers on foia compliance in foia completion and decisions and so there's some criticism as to whether the justice department is being honest in its reporting to congress about its foia

program. and so i'm mindful of what signal that sends to the broader bureaucracy. i'd like since you are reviewing foia over your tenure if you could speak to the role of leadership for your office. thank you. >> sure. i think that we did a pretty good job and i think that we did provide leadership and i think the policy guidance that dan gave overwhelmingly through foia update and the case law that the two of us put out through the d.o.j. guide and privacy act overview was extremely good. and we would put in cases, for instance, in the d.o.j. guide where the department lost and sometimes where we lost and we didn't think we should. well, if there's going to be a parenthetical in there saying, judge, apparently on narcotics ruling thus and such and that

and so -- we are going to -- >> aberrational ruling. we used to do that a lot. >> aberrational ruling or ruling without explanation that -- >> inexplicably aberrationally. >> we wanted too do that so that when -- we were kind of flattered in one respect because we occasionally would see briefs submitted by assistant united states attorneys which had clearly taken the information right out of the d.o.j. guide and cited everything. we looked down there and said judas priest, you've cited to contra cases, two cases against the proposition. these are not in your district, not in your circuit, you are not obligate dodd this as a matter of ethics and law and you have used inexpublicly ruling thus and such and you've used that kind of language in there. so we wanted to be careful that

in fact we definitely put in the good, bad and the ugly throughout that guide in order to make it as straight forward and as honest as we could. so i would say that in that area i think we did a very good job. i'm not sure if that responds to of -- >> by contrast there is no small amount of addness or basis for sadness as to how things have gone since then. i'll just point out that not only with respect to the overall back log reductions, statistics at the justice department tells the inescapable fact speaking of leadership and serving as a model that in the the three leadership offices aj, deputy and associate attorney general and miriam knows this as well, this was her spriemry responsibility for a dozen year. not only did the combined back log increase by almost 33% last year but after that happened and

there was some focus on it the combined bag log for attorney general, deputy attorney general and associate torattorney gener increased this past year by 37.2%. as dick would say, who is counting? i think people are getting guidance to reduce their back log are counting. that's just one of many things that are said right now. >> i guess that was kind of the motivation of my question was to speak to any lessons you would draw from being at the crucible as the head of foia policy for the federal government. notwithstanding the products that you used to implement policy but those kinds of lessons about leadership. >> it's good to speak straight forwardly and to make sure not just before it goes through an attorney because you are a model

to make sure what you're saying is accurate, you're telling the truth. >> sir? >> michael binyard, department of the air force. the department of defense is facing budget cuts. >> you always say that. >> it's true this time, i swear. so foia professionals are walking around with targets on their back. and i can attest that there are positions that have been eliminated. so you're looking at perhaps lower foia. i'm wondering does the justice department have a role here? i can tell people, hey, it's a law, freedom of information act is a law. we have to have people to carry out that law. but i don't really count for much in the air force. so should the department of justice be telling defense department and other agencies you have to preserve these people because they are there to

carry out a law? >> i think there's some difficulty with justice telling other agencies how they should allocate their money. i remember going back quite a while ago when the head foia person at dod going back into the, oh, geez, probably the 80s said i don't mind being told to do more than less. it's just i don't like it when i'm told to do it faster as well. and that's the sort of problem, i think, that a lot of us have. sometimes we can get from automation we are able to increase the speed and improve things a little bit with that, but i recognize automation costs us money as well. and once we've made that increase of 17% the first year, it's going to stay at that 17%. it's not going to be, you know, growing by that every year. so i think that there certainly are problems with exactly that.

i have seen going way back department of state used to have a terrible problem with its back log and they went up once to senator leahy and leahy was wearing two hats, one in the senate subcommittee dealing with foia and he was aware of the problem at the state. he also happened to be on state department's appropriations committee. and that was the time at least with state he was able to make a difference for about three or four years, where he told them that they were going to get more money and he didn't want this money used for this, that or the other thing, he wanted this particular, you know, $4 million over here that is put into general administration to be put into foia. and, in fact, it did make a difference for that short period. but the difficulty is is even if justice says something like that, it's got to go through the appropriators. i this there might be a small,

if i recall correctly, a small bit of help that can be done through the chief foia officers a are, among other things, responsible for reporting to the agency head with regard to resources. but again, that's a voice within the agency on something like that. >> secretary of state baker got $9 million one afternoon for the state department foia. that's a standard even with inflation, that sets the bar very high. go back to your agencies and tell them that's what you shoot for, 9 million in a single afternoon. >> what related to that, i think that foias are sometimes filed by people who oppose an agency's policies, not merely to find -- sorry. i think foias are sometimes filed by people who oppose an agency's policies, not merely it find more information on the policies but in some cases to require the folks making those policies to spend their time

responding to the foia. i wouldn't accuse anyone in this room of that but it is something that i have seen from time to time. do you see -- is that a problem that you've witnessed? and do you see a way to try to address that? >> this gives dick time to think about an answer, notice. >> i saw at the department of justice on fairly rare occasions one of the reasons why that it's not a terrible problem is that there are fees involved in processing most requests. and if you have somebody, you know, assuming that valid fees can be charged, that can calm some people down and help them focus on what they really want. my experience at the department of justice was that was not a particularly frequent problem. every great once in a while we would have somebody like that,

but it was much more likely to be an individual seeking records that did not at all qualify as a news media or was not entitled to a fee waiver. it was once in a great while it might be a disgruntled employee. employees are entitled to get all kinds of records and that's entirely appropriate. but there would be one or two of the rare cases where i would hear something like that. and usually fees would be the one thing that, you know, given them the first part, give them the next part and after a while that would be so. i didn't see that very often at the department of justice. it was pretty rare. dan, you've got a class here. these people are going to be cheated out of legislation, which is going to be a lot more interesting than what what i've got to say. >> this is an academic institution, dick. someone has an inquiry. one more quick question. >> did your former office at

justice -- >> no. >> have authority -- >> no. >> more authority over the foia people at fbi than at or agencies? >> hell, yes. >> by far. >> even though they carried guns. >> i would get an administrative appeal -- well, we had a large amount of authority in terms of general policy. not total but a very large amount. but on administrative appeal, if the fbi withheld something or took an inappropriate thing, i could go back and i could overrule them. there was one particular case i remember this is protected under 7d, if you disclose this, it's going to be resulting in some guide shot out on the street, an informant. i looked at it and explain to me why. well, we're not sure why. you have to do better than that. i looked at it as hard as i can

because i don't think it's going to identify them because of this, that and the other. unless you can come and explain it to me better, i'm going to order it to be disclosed. so within the department of justice, i had the power on administrative appeals with everything except for the folks that are on b.-1. exception for exemption 1, i did not have the power to overrule on exemption 1. i just had the power to make sure it was properly marked. subs stan tifl it went to a department review committee and they were the ones that made that determination on exemption one. on any other exemption or policy, fees, fee waivers, things such as that the answer was yet. thank all of you. we're all done. >> thank you very much. [ applause ]

>> it's great to be able to go back over the years, sir, like that. we'll now get set up for the next panel. coming up next, a discussion of what universities are doing to prevent online piracy. i was quite a radical as a young person and i was the one who thought that, you know, the sing "we shall overcome" was not a very effective way of gaining civil rights. and i think that i thought that more confrontation was needed.

>> economics professor, columnist and substitute host for rush limbaugh walter williams on being a radical. >> i believe a radical is any person who believes in personal liberty and individual freedom and limited government, that makes you a radical. and i've always been a person who believed that people should not interfere with me, i should be able to do my own thing without -- so long as i don't violate the rights of other people. >> more with walter williams sunday night at 8:00 eastern and pacific on c-span's q & a. >> the strong support we have in our region of the country from wednesday this movement originated gives us an excellent base to go forth on the day of november the 5th with and we, in my judgment, will go for the with at least the 177 electoral votes that comprise the states

of the south and border and when you couple that with just a few other states in the union, then you have the 270-odd electoral vote necessary to win the presidency. >> as candidates campaign for president this year, we look back at 14 men who ran for the office and lost. go to our web site c-span.org/thecontenders. >> there's been honest contention, spirit of disagreement and i believe considerable hot arguments. but don't let anybody be misled by that. you have given here in this hall a moving and dramatic proof of how americans who honestly differ close ranks and move forward for the nation's well being shoulder to shoulder.

at a recent meeting of state attorneys general a panelest discussed strategies on piracy of movies and videos on college campuses. this is about an hour. >> rob? rob. just wanted to make sure you knew i was in my seat prepared to go. >> that is awesome, lawrence. by the way, in the back we've got this funky echo going with the speakers and the mics. can you hear it? it's kind of cool. it's like i'm at a concert but. all right. i'm just telling you. very good. our next panel is going to focus on the attorneys general role in

combatting intellectual property piracy on college campuses. we're very honored to have senator chris dodd, chairman and ceo of the motion picture association of america to provide us with an introduction on the topic. and, again, we're getting serious echo up here. can you guys adjust it or not? there's a little bit of a delay. how about now? oh, that's much better. thank you. okay, got that fixed. will you please join me in welcoming senator chris dodd. well, good afternoon. thank you immensely for the invitation to be with all of you. today i'm delighted to come by. as many of you may have know, i spent my previous three and a half decades in that other building up the road from here. someone asked me if i missed congress. and i said yes but not this congress. so i'm delighted to be in my new job as the head of the motion picture association, following in the steps of dan glickman,

who was before that was jack have a lenty. almost 40 years of the ceo and chairman of the motion picture association. when i left the senate last year, my now 7-year-old -- i have two very young children, i was the only candidate i knew who had mail from diaper services and aarp for a while with these young kids but christina asked me, i asked her what she'd like her father to do now that she was leaving public life and the senate. she paused a moment, she said i'd like you to own a zoo and a candy store. when i took this job, i told her i fulfilled both of her life ambitions. it's an honor to be invited to come by this morning and to introduce a panel on cam pass piracy today. i'd like to personally again thank rob mckenna for the invitation to come by and also for everything that he and all of you are doing. along with the national association obviously of the attorneys general to help advance the battle against

online content theft and counterfeiting. i'd also like to recognize as well those who will be the panelists you'll hear from shortly, my industry colleague and friend dick cotton, larry conrad from the university of north carolina and jason stort from the university of new york. as we discuss the problems posted by online piracy and counterfeiti counterfeiting, there's an important truth to remember about the film and hollywood industry. hollywood is pro internet. we are pro innovation. our business is built on innovation. just look at imax, 3-2, instant treatmenting, video on demand, along with many other ideas that have been built on this industry. it's critically important any solution to the piracy prab lem protect a free and open internet and foster cutting edge innovation. it's also clear any overall solution will need too kplu a plan of action at our nation's

colleges and universities. congress recognized this in 2008, with a law. university students are growing up in an era far different from the one that many of us were involved with when we went to college and university. it's far different from students that attended college even a few years ago. information is at their fingertips like never before in legal and illegal forms. property protection and freedom of speech universities cherish cannot co-exist. i couldn't disagree more. as the property reaffirmed just this year in goal 'versus holder, the founders the court said, and i quote, "saw copy right engine of free exprergs by establishing a marketable right

to the use of one's expression. copy right supplies the economic insent tiff to create and disseminate creative ideas." i believe universities should play a vital role about educating students of representing and respecting international property rights in the rule of law. the motion picture sorry yags stands ready to work with the student, alongs with the state attorneys who represent the state's universities to make sure this nation remains the most creative and innovative on this planet. a place where students can graduate and fulfill their creative ambitions or dreams, whether it be new york, nashville, austin, seattle or hollywood for that matter, or i didn't of the growing centers where creative content is produced throughout our nation. this is critical the two that not just be considered a day dee

bait about downloading, music and door rooms. as attorney general mckenna wrote, the sale of counterfeit product and piracy of copy righted content online not on undermines our nation's economy, it robs state of much-needed tax revenue and jobs. even worse he went on to say some counterfeit goods can pose serious health and safety hazards to consumers. i couldn't agree more. a study by envisional found that nearly one quarter of all global internet traffic involves copy right theft. let me repeat that. a study found that nearly one quarter of all internet traffic involves copy right theft. at the heart of the problem is the proliferation of foreign relations web sites whose sole purpose is to accelerate the theft of creative content.

the theft of all creative connin tent driven by rogue sites foreign and domestic costing our nation $16 billion in earnings each year, $3 billion in state, local and federal taxes each your and a total of $5le 8 balance in economic output each your. as attorney general mcken also mentioned, the growth of these rogue sites also has potentially serious health and safety risks for our nation as well. these are sophisticated criminal enterprises. they do not just traffic in stolen movies and television. they market counterfeit products such as prescription drugs, aerospace and defense equipment, even for local police and fire fighting departments. they are selling american parents, children that turn out to be flammable and to the law enforcement officers bullet-proof vests that are anything but. and as the walg street journal recently reported, the makers of the career of the cancer drug

ofs annen have announced that counterfeit vials of that drug have made their way to the american patience posing additional risks. recent research by the national association found that more than 96% of sites offering preskripg drugs for sale are doing so creatively. criminal activity doesn't end there unfortunately. these rogue sites often look just like legitimate web sites that use valid methods of payment, which means many people use them unintentionally without realizing they are criminal site. when they edit their credit card information, they are extremely vulnerable to identity theft, which is a growing problem in our country. cyber criminals are becoming increasingly sophisticated, selling their products through online search engines and services that make their products appear to be legitimate. in the process some american

companies are reaping huge profits from this illegal activities, by selling the advertising link, they are taking money from the illegal companies in exchange for the prime space advertising to american consumers. in the past year according to the peer media technologies, there were more than 690 million uploads and downloads of unauthorized copies of major motion pictures via the p 2 p technology. in the mega upload case, kim.com made more than $170 through

subscription fees and online ads while robbing authors, publishers, musicians, and other video copyright holders of more than $5 million. some argue the debate about piracy and counterfeiting is not about the money. well, doesn't believe it. as the famous 20th century punt id was fond of saying, "when they tell you it's not about the money, it's about the money." look at mr. dot commonwealth. there are companies legal and illegal reaping huge profits from the theft of intellect property. when it come to piracy, college students are one part of a problem but this is the generation of the future as all of us understand and know. if we're to have any hope of being successful in this effort, we need to can't with these students and help them understand the full ramifications and dangers of them personally of engaging in the theft of intellectual

property. we need to engage them in our effort to ensure the internet remains a free and open cornerstone of innovation in our businesses. young people are key consumers of our content online, and we want to ensure that they can continue to legally watch the shows and movies they love in a whole host of different formats on line. we believe innovation and cooperation of tech companies are critical parts of the conversation about content theft. but as all of you know, the problem also goes much deeper than young people in college and any real solution will need the assistance of our nation's law enforcement community in curbing this rampant criminal activity. i believe that our attorneys general will and must play a major role in that effort and i look forward as we do at the mpaa along with others in working with you to provide answers to this ever growing problem. and i thank you for listening this afternoon. [ applause ]