is that they often have a nonlinear effect. that is that they don't appear to be working until they do. and i think actually in the initial phases of sanctions against iran, they weren't sufficient to get iran to fundamentally alter its nuclear behavior. but i think they may be approaching a tipping point, a threshold point whereby the regime is sufficiently concerned about the economic damage, especially to its oil sector and the possibility for domestic unrest that could be associated with that that they may be willing to strike a deal. and so i've taken some solace from the fact they're willing to come back to the negotiating table. my understanding is those negotiations could start and restart in a matter of weeks. i think we need to manage our expectations about a breakthrough but we could start to step away from a confrontation and sanctions have a big part to do with that. i would say one other thing. you know, the supreme leader in ahmadinejad and others say a lot of things. one thing the supreme leader always says is the acquisition or use of nuclear weapons would be a great sin against islam.

i don't know whether he believes it but it's important he says that because that allows the possibility that he could climb down from this crisis and claim he never wanted to pursue nuclear weapons to begin with. they are creating a narrative that would allow them to step back and we should explore that with diplomacy. >> well, beyond the sanctions, what are some other options you think that could be on the table either presently ongoing or potentially in the future? >> well, i can say that, you know, the obama administration has actually been very successful in framing a whole of government approach to this. there's obviously a state department diplomatic isolation effort that's going on. it's proven very successful. the treasury department and the state department have worked very aggressively in the sanctions along with the body, of course. we've done a lot on the military side to prepare so that when the

president says all options are on the table those options are on the table. so we've put a lot of assets in the theater in case there's a contingency with iran. and then there are intelligence activities and other activities going on. so i think we've really taken a full spectrum approach to iran. and i think we still have time to pursue that full spectrum approach. >> i yield back. >> recognize the gentleman from california, the former attorney general of california. >> they you very much, mr. chairman. mr. silber, i don't know. if i were to take the ranking member's opening statement at face value, i would have thought we wasted our time here because the indication was that all of you witnesses before us don't have any current information. it's all based on what you did in the past. mr. silber, what you said today is that based on out of date information or are you privy to intelligence information even now?

>> yes, i mean, the information that i'm basing my testimony over is live information, current information based on ongoing investigations that are happening in new york city as we speak. as we speak, in general working with federal law enforcement agencies. >> we were chastened not to look at just a snapshot in time. the 9/11 commission criticized the united states government for not connecting the dots. aren't dots snapshots in time and you take them together and analyze them and, therefore, you establish patterns and come to conclusions, mr. silber? >> in new york city, we use the 9/11 commission study as almost a bit of a bible and we look to that to make sure that in our responsibility of keeping new

york city safe, we learn the lessons that happened pre-9/11. and when we see it, we have to sound the alarm without sounding alarmist. but based on the dots that we're seeing across the board overseas, whether it's georgia, india, bangkok and frankly washington, d.c., we are concerned that we may be moving toward a point where either because of hostilities that break out or the perception of pressure on iran that we may be moving forward to a higher likelihood of terrorist activity in the homeland. >> my observation would be if we ignore snapshots in time, we are being derelict in our duty and doing exactly what the 9/11 commission said the congress and the executive branch was guilty of in the past. mr. braun, a number of years ago i worked with now vice president biden to get legislation passed

to criminalize the operation of semisubmersibles. and now we know they have quasisubmersibles that can operate a short depth under the ocean. and it's always occurred to me that while the drug cartels use that to deliver drugs and now they are large enough to actually deliver people, that that would be a vehicle of opportunity for those who would wish to perhaps introduce, not drugs, but weapons into the united states. has that ever occurred to you? do you think that's a legitimate concern? and if in fact there is this

connection between drug cartels and terrorist groups, including hezbollah, ought that not to be a major concern to us? >> first of all, let me thank you for the legislation. it did a great deal in helping us to get a better handle on addressing that threat. and i'm not speaking from just a federal law enforcement perspective, but it helped our coast guard and navy immensely. so again, thank you. it's one of those threats that i happen to still lose sleep over. these things are now fully submersible, able to dive to depths and remain submerged up to 100 feet deep for significant periods of time. they carry as much as eight or more tons of cocaine. they are typically and obviously that takes up a lot of space, congressman, and those -- that contraband could be replaced with operatives. that contraband could be replaced with weapons. any number of things.

and it's important also that the farc, the revolutionary armed forces of colombia, also a designated terrorist organization by our country, the european union and several other countries are the ones that are paying for and utilizing -- for paying for the manufacture of these things and then putting them into service. so that worries me. finally, look, when these things now are capable of making it from the north coast of colombia all the way into northern mexico, southern california's just, you know, not much water separating -- separating that distance. it's something we should be concerned with. >> i thank you for your testimony. thank you for your service. and i thank all of the witnesses. >> the gentle lady from texas, miss jackson lee. >> i thank the chairman and the ranking member for holding this hearing and to all of the witnesses that are here. time is very short. i will try to be cryptic in my questions.

this is a whole area that really requires such a depth of investigation. mr. silber, i have no intent to make any statement on the work that you have done. i think we are all committed to working together to ensure that the homeland is protected. i just spoke about that earlier this morning. what legislative initiative do you believe is most important in directing efforts toward protecting the homeland? >> one of the issues that has been very important has been the terrorism financing issue that some of my colleagues here on the panel have spent a lot of time looking at both in and out of government. if we can constrict the ability for terrorist organizations, whether you are talking about an al qaeda or a hezbollah or

entities linked to iran and constrict their ability to move money and get money, you potentially limit their ability to act. so i think that is one particular form of legislation. we've seen it effective on the al qaeda front and we believe it's going to have a pinch on the hezbollah and iran front. >> and coming from new york, i remember distinctly how new york came together, but i also remember the commitment to not let the terrorists have us turn on ourselves. do you still believe in the basic infrastructure of civil liberties and civil rights in the constitution, even as we turn our attention to fighting terrorism? >> yes, absolutely. as i mentioned in my opening statement, really all of our efforts in new york city are grounded in law, as well as the u.s. constitution. we realize that some of our best allies are going to be in the diversity of new york city and

the communities that we have have the ability to, in a sense, be the eyes and ears and detect something before even law enforcement may become aware of it. so as much as those relationships can be strengthened, and that's something that our community affairs unit makes their highest priority, that in a sense safeguards all of us. >> thank you, mr. silber. i want to continue that line of reasoning to the other gentleman. i'm well aware of the influence of drugs and i think to dr. levitt, you mentioned you can see homegrown terrorism here as we speak. we obviously had evidence to the attack or the attempted attack on the saudi arabian ambassador. but, dr. kahl, let me thank you for reinforcing the president's international perspective on iran is that he does not adhere to containment, that iran having a nuclear weapon is unacceptable. and that he has not precluded any option if you will. but i think what is important again is the nation's reinforcement that american citizens -- so the american citizens have civil liberties

rights and certain protections under the constitution. is that still your understanding? >> well, as a public official, i took an oath to uphold the constitution. i believe that as an individual, too. so i think, you know, there can be trade space between our security and liberty, but we have to be clear to preserve our liberty because that's what we're fighting for. >> and you adhere to words that came out soon after 9/11 that we don't want the terrorists to force us to terrorize ourselves? you remember some paraphrasing like that? >> in general, i think that we should avoid engaging in self-fulfilling prophecies. that is in taking steps that, you know, for good intentions that nevertheless have inadvertent consequences for a whole host of our values. >> but it is clear that hezbollah has a far reach? remember their horrific actions in lebanon in the lebanese war. but if you could focus on the

homegrown terrorism and your depth of understanding of hezbollah's impact in influencing individuals that are here in the united states that would be the late -- the least perceived operative, is that the way they are working, that they would be working with the least perceived operative, someone who may not show themselves clear to be intending to do wrong? well, does someone feel -- >> yeah, i'm not really -- congresswoman, i'm not really the right person. >> dr. levitt, he's pointing to you. >> i'm sorry. i didn't know if you were asking me or him. i think hezbollah will work through its own operatives and through its own network some criminal. but the fbi has made public the fact that hezbollah has proactively also started looking for people who don't fit the main profile and, therefore, it's incumbent upon us to be aware of that as well. again, since hezbollah has the

ability to -- people who may not be followers. this is a line of investigation that warrants attention. all of these efforts that have been put in place since 9/11 make it more difficult for the known, established, hardened operatives that we may already know about through other intelligence trip wires we put out there and so it's to be expected whether it's hezbollah or al qaeda or somebody else, they are going to look for people who don't fit the profile we might normally associate with them. >> chairman, thank you for your kindness. i'd like to work with this committee on this matter and would like to place on the record, mr. chairman, that i want to uphold in doing so not racial profiling and not involving in labeling one group, but we need to work on this issue together. i thank the chairman and the ranking member and yield back my time. >> the gentle lady's input is always appreciated. the gentleman from texas, mr. mccaul is recognized for five minutes. >> thanks for holding this hearing.

ever since i was a federal prosecutor work with the joint terrorism task forces, i've been concerned about the presence of hezbollah and the qods force, the influence of iran in the western hemisphere. in many ways, more sophisticated than al qaeda. and you don't know what you don't know. we don't know how many of these operatives are in the united states. certainly talking to mexico, they don't really know how many operatives are in mexico. and then after the plot to assassinate the saudi ambassador went down, to me, that was a bit of a game changer because we always viewed hezbollah and qods forces as more of a financing role. and then operation titan came down. the dea had a very successful bust that showed a nexus between the qods forces and the drug cartels. to me, this is very dangerous cocktail. operation titan was born. money laundering. but the idea they could become

operational at some point in the future, working together, to me is a real risk. and then when you look at the connection between caracas and tehran, caracas and damascus, mr. ahmadinejad's tour in the western hemisphere. the castro connection. the idea that while iran cannot deliver nuclear missile, the idea that they could have weapons grade uranium and bring that across the southwest border and detonate a dirty bomb in the united states does become a real threat. so with that, i guess mr. braun, being from the dea, what do you see in terms of testimony about them potentially becoming operational and also the ties between these drug cartels and the terrorist organizations?

>> well, you know, as i said, congressman, they use that example as proof of his key concern, the intel community's key concern that iran, you know, may have made kind of a monumental decision and may have decided to posture themselves, prepare for an attack on the homeland as things continue to heat up. and he used that example to recruit what, you know, what the qods force operative believed was a member of the ultra violent mexican drug trafficking cartel as his key example to drive home that concern. you know, this is the -- really, it's proof that this witch's brew, quite frankly, is bubbling

over in many parts of the world. you know, when you -- when most people think of, you know, drugs terror nexus, they immediately think of latin america. but let me be perfectly clear. as europe's demand for cocaine continues to grow, and as the mexican and colombian cartels, including the farc have sent their operatives into west africa and north africa to establish the transshipment infrastructure needed to move tons of those drugs, these bad guys are now routinely coming in very close contact with the likes of hezbollah, hamas, al qaeda, who are vying for the same money, the same turf and the same dollars. it's really a nightmare scenario. and my point being is that if anyone thinks for a moment that hezbollah and qods force, masters at leveraging and exploiting infrastructures globally are not going to focus on our southwest border and use that as perhaps a springboard in attacking our country, then they

just don't understand how the real underworld works. >> in fact, across the border as dr. levitt mentioned -- my time is limited. but we sent a letter to the president calling for significant covert action in iran. cyber. and also the designation of the qods force as a foreign terrorist organization. i was surprised, given the bombing of our marines in beirut and buenos aires, the jewish community center, that they're not on the foreign terrorist organization list. would that be -- and i introduced the bill this morning along with the chairman's support to do just that. would that be helpful in terms of giving us more authorities to go after the qods forces in the united states? >> well, you know, i think it would, but even more importantly, it makes them a target. and our nation's security resources and apparatus

understands that they are now a designated foreign terrorist organization and it just naturally causes them to focus more heavily on that threat. that designation means a great, great deal. >> thank you. >> mr. higgins recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. firstly, let me just say, i was proud to join with my colleague jeff duncan to introduce hr-3783. the countering iran, the western hemisphere act which i am pleased to say was marked up and passed in the foreign affairs committee earlier this month. the legislation would call for the state department to investigate hezbollah's presence in the western hemisphere and create a long-term comprehensive strategy for keeping our communities and our nation safe. the purpose of this legislation or the inspiration came from hearings in this very committee where expert witnesses had

informed our committee that hezbollah has a presence in the 20-country region of latin 20-country region of latin america, but also in 15 american cities, as well as four canadian cities. we were also told in subsequent testimony that we shouldn't be all that concerned about that presence because that presence was their activities were limited to fund-raising. well, that's not comforting. and i think where there is a presence, there is an intent and there is a severe threat. we all know hezbollah is a terror organization. they are committed to violent jihad. they act as a proxy for venezuela, for syria and for iran, and their presence in latin america could also be viewed as a pervasive presence toward the goal of having a greater presence in north

america. i also want to recognize the work of the new york city police department. following the recommendations of the 9/11 commission, the new york city police department has established itself as probably the most effective counterterrorism organization of the world. it's a difficult balance between keeping the homeland safe and protecting individual liberties, but i think they've done a very good job in that regard. so i'd just like to hear from our witnesses about not only the presence of hezbollah in the western hemisphere but specifically the threat in north america by their presence. >> thank you, representative. you know, i think the dynamic that we heard about in north carolina with this cigarette case, we had individuals conducting criminal activity. that criminal activity was funding hezbollah operations or

hezbollah activities overseas by its transmission to lebanon. you had a population of people who were fund-raisers but at some point in time could be turned into facilitators and ultimately operatives. and the fact that some of these individuals had military training that they had received from hezbollah in lebanon. i think all those dynamics that you heard about in that case are all dynamics that map very well to the current situation in new york city, and without going into details about the investigations that we have going on, those map very much in parallel to what we're seeing in terms of the type of people, the type of backgrounds and the type of activities that are going on. >> yeah, i think what's noteworthy about that case and i think it's an indication of how hezbollah operates throughout the u.s. is they are burrowed deep into our society already. they've been around a lot longer than al qaeda and a lot longer than al shabaab and some of the

other shiny on the objects that we're concentrating on now. i think that they understand how to use our financial system. they have an sba loan, a false loan. they bribed a loan officer. they had credit cards. they understood the financial system, how to exploit the immigration system. so they are well entrenched in society and well positioned to do something or facilitate someone else coming in and doing something and blending in. they can manufacture documents. it's all there and it's all in place. they don't have to make it happen. it's already well in place. the good news is there's 104 joint terrorism task forces across the country. you've got 56 field intelligence groups and you've got a new preventive mind set out there instead of reacting to what's going on, i think the intelligence community and the fbi and the nypd and other agencies are out there shaking that tree. i think we're well positioned to know what they're doing. >> you know, mike chertoff when

he was the secretary of homeland security, in fact, it may have been before this committee, as he had one foot in the door and one foot out, about four years ago testified about the threat posed by terrorist organizations, middle eastern terrorist organizations on the united states. and then secretary chertoff said that we need to maintain the focus on al qaeda. a shiny object. a very shiny object. and, you know, and a real threat. but he said the real threat is hezbollah. hezbollah has what al qaeda could only dream of having. they have established relationships with the most powerful international drug trafficking and organized crime syndicates ever faced by law enforcement. and they obviously maintain close relations with other designated terrorist organizations around our globe. congressman, whoever told you that hezbollah is now in 15 cities, i think they woefully

underestimated it. part of the problem that we've got is we don't really know. that's what worries me a great deal. congressman lundgren, you brought out the importance of connecting the dots. that is important. but what we need to get in the business of is actually producing more dots to connect. i think that nypd is doing just that within the rule of law. that's extremely important. and, quite frankly, i think that federal law enforcement could learn a great deal from the nypd model. >> the gentleman's time has expired. mr. carvaak is recognized now. >> thank you very much. i'd like to thank the chair for having these what i consider very important illuminating discussions here. mr. braun, sir, you said that one of the things that's being apparent is that hezbollah is entrenched. it's organized. probably much different than a

lot of the other agencies or characters that we've seen in the past. would you agree to that statement? >> absolutely. highly sophisticated organizational and operational structures. >> it's interesting in your prepared testimony you said in the context of this hearing, it is important that we remember the qods force is also responsible for iran's strategic missile program and many experts believe they will be holding the keys to the country's nuclear weapons program if it makes it off the ground. is that correct? >> that's correct. >> if i understand it correctly, the qods force reports directly to iran's supreme spiritual leader, al khamenei. is that correct? >> i'm not an expert on iran but that's my understanding. yes, sir. >> dr. kahl, could you comment on that? >> yes, the qods force reports up through the irgc, the revolutionary guard core, to the supreme leader. and the head of the qods force is a close confidante of the supreme leader. >> also, sir, in your testimony

you mentioned in regards to sanctions. now the difference in my opinion, it's much different of having sanctions with -- towards a politically-based country versus an ideology-based country. would you agree to that? >> i guess it depends on what you mean. if it speaks to whether iran is a rationale enough actor to make a strategic decision in the face of these pressures on them, i think the conclusion of our intelligence community as well as the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff as well as the former chief of mosad is they are sufficiently rationale and sufficiently strategic to be able to make calculations that threaten the regime. i think when the regime is at risk, i think that sanctions are rising to the level that they could force the regime to back down. >> would hezbollah be considered a rational actor?

>> actually, i think that you seeless bow la and its activities vis-a-vis israel and others trying to sal brat sits activities. the iranians do this, too. they use force in the form of subversion, militancy, terrorism, but try to calibrate their attacks to a level below that which would generate a massive retaliation. in fact in 2006, hezbollah probably miscalculated when it kidnapped those israeli soldiers leading to the war there. i think it learned a lesson from that. and i would just say one thing. i think there's been a lot of talk about the possibility that if the qods force controlled the nuclear program and its ties with hezbollah or drug cartels that they would somehow pass a nuclear device or radiological device that would find its way into the homeland. you can never say never but that would be very, very unusual because the regime in tehran is not suicidal and would know that doing that would generate massive retaliation. already has weapons of mass

destruction. they have chemical weapons.e ve weapons to hezbollah for precisely the reason that they try to calibrate their activities below the level that they think would generate massive retaliation. so i think nuclear terrorism is very unlikely. >> well, that was one of my concerns, actually. mr. silber, can you give me your definition of what a dirty bomb is? are you capable of providing that? >> yeah, i would say in general what we're looking at is an explosive device that entails the utilization of some type of radioactive material. and it's not at the sufficient strength to be a full-blown nuclear weapon but the radioactive material that's included in this explosive device might render certain areas unlivable for a period of time. >> possibly up to a year? >> possibly up to a year. actually possibly longer. >> so we have, mr. braun, you said that we have idenfi