a choice of means. i don't really think that it's any more an interference with freedom than medicare taxes or any other kind of taxes are. but some of my colleagues here may disagree. >> let's have some quick answers and quick answers. yes. right there in the back. >> hi. trevor burress from the cato institute. my question quick for mr. lazarus, is there such a thing as a coercion doctrine? >> that's a good question. what the questioner is referring to is the fact that the reference to coercion that has been made in the case law has been made in two cases, as tim indicated.

the butler case in 1936 and the south dakota v. dole case in 1987. neither of these cases actually held that there is a doctrine of coercion. they refer to the possibility that a conditional grant might be made under terms that went from compulsion to coercion, but they didn't say anything about exactly what it meant. a number of courts of appeal have concluded that it doesn't really exist as a doctrine. no court has ever actually applied it to hold that a traditional grant was unconstitutional. so one thing that these cases will decide is whether the doctrine actually exists as law or not and that in and of itself will be very important. the justice department is arguing that it actually doesn't or shouldn't. there's a good argument for that position. the states that i was talking about, the democratic states who

support the medicaid expansion, argue that there should be a coercion doctrine. they're much more pro-state interests in their orientation than the justice department is but they argue that it doesn't apply here so we'll find that out. >> sir, right here. >> my name is craig olson, i'm retired from the state department mostly. the preamble to the constitution states that one of the reasons that the constitution was created was to promote the general welfare, welfare. article 1, section 8, says one of the reasons that you raise taxes is to provide for the general welfare. why isn't that in and of itself sufficient to make the affordable care act -- >> there's an easy answer. tim, what is it? >> well, i don't know if it's an easy answer. >> i'll give it if you don't. >> roger is my teacher. i would say the general welfare clause refers for one thing to

the general welfare and not to the specific welfare and that a great many of the schemes that the federal government engages in through the spending clauses for the specific welfare. that's particularly the case with the statute that was enacted only by giving special kick backs to louisiana, nebraska, so forth and so on and the general welfare of the united states i think is articulated in the rest of the article where it says what the federal constitutional powers are. what's your answer, roger. >> well, the answer is, first, the general welfare clause in the preamble is not law. the preamble is not cited, has never been cited as law. it is always cited as precatory. look that word up, it's a good one. the general welfare clause of artdab artdab artdable -- article 1, section

8, phrase 1, which is the taxing power, was held by all except hamilton to stand for the idea that it is the general phrase that is informed by the 17 enumerated powers that follow. in other words, you have -- there's nothing more common, madison said in federalist 41, than to state a general principle and then illustrate it underneath with the examples of how it is to be used. so therefore, the power to raise armies, the powers to create post roads, so on and so forth, all of which in total constitute the general welfare. otherwise, as they went on to say, madison and jefferson and virtually everybody else, william drayton in 1828, if there were an independent power in congress to tax and spend for the general welfare, there would have been no point in having enumerated all of congress's discreet powers because since then money can be used to buy

anything, congress could make an end run around the doctrine of enumerated powers and saying they were taxing and spending for the general welfare, which would be the open sesame which is the government we've got since 1937. >> and that is the point. you are exactly right. you have just stated what the law is. >> no, what the law became in 1937. >> and it has been since then, at least. in 1936 in the butler case that all of us have referred to, the court, and this was a pre-new deal conservative court. it was not the court that flipped and became more liberal in 1937. the court goes through a very. erudite discussion of this debate roger is referring to between hamilton and madison and concludes in a very scholarly way that the correct view, which was also recognized by justice joseph

story, who was a great constitutional authority in the early 19th century, that the hamiltonian view that you've just referred to is in fact the correct view and it has been without any question the correct view now. so if you have to challenge that view to win this medicaid case, roger, you have to -- you have to bring about a massive constitutional counter revolution to do that. >> i'm prepared to do that. >> i'm sure you are. >> it's been said that this is a covert attempt at restoring the constitution from the damage that was done to it in the 1930s. i don't want it to be covert at all. that's exactly the effort that i have in mind. >> that debate that you refer to in butler, the court came down on hamilton's side in dicta. it was only a year later in the social security case that the court elevated the dicta to the holding of the case after roosevelt threatened to pack the

court with six new members. the infamous court-packing scheme. with respect to the butler court coming down on hamilton's side, the only problem with that is that none of the other founding generation came down on the hamilton side. the debate arose over the introduction of his report on manufacturers in 1791 which was a national industrial policy which the congress immediately shelved because it was utterly contrary to the tenor and the language of the constitution. the butler court in coming down on hamilton's side ignored that entire vision of the founding generation because it was enlightened by the new deal mindset. >> you should have filed an amicus brief with that case. >> this is why we choose roger as the moderator. >> i was in my infancy at that time, but for which i would have. all right, let's take just one more question and then we will call it to a conclusion. the gentleman right up here.

if we could have a short question and a short answer. >> my name -- >> we're still working out the bugs. >> my name is larry borry. i'm an independent lobbyist. could you please talk about the medicaid issue in light of the enumerated powers, and specifically as it relates to the tenth amendment. >> good question. who wants to tackle that first? >> unfortunately for us this new deal revolution that transformed the constitution from what it was into something completely different consisted in large part of ignoring the tenth amendment and referring to it as, quote, a truism.

lawyers are the only people who can call something a truism and then ignore it. so what has -- of course that's a bit snide because what has happened is by expanding federal power, that just means the states don't have the power. the tenth amendment says itch the federal government can't do it, the states do it. because of the decisions that have expanded federal power under the commerce clause and other clauses of the constitution, that has left a much narrower scope for the tenth amendment to operate. what we need to do really is start looking at the bill of rights the way the founders intended it not as being a substantive grant of particular rights or privileges or principles, but as a reiteration of principles that guide our interpretation of the constitution. the tenth amendment is there as a reminder. it's not supposed to create rights or anything, it's supposed to tell you the new deal court got it wrong. that's what the tenth amendment tells us. if we are going to be faithful to the constitution, have a

truly living constitution as opposed to a constitution with all sorts of dead spots in it like the tenth amendment, like the public use clause of the fifth amendment, like the due process clause of the 14th amendment, if we're going to have a living constitution, we have to be informed of the principles of the tenth amendment and so forth and that has to take place in congress and in the court. we can't expect this system to run on its own. to end on a positive note. those of us who believe in the constitution as opposed to the 1930s, we should be celebrating no matter how these cases come out because the debate we've seen over the past year has been enormously healthy for this country. we have seen ordinary americans discussing the constitution, analyzing what it means, debating about it amongst themselves and that is incredibly refreshing to a professional constitutional lawyer like myself. >> all right. let's have a good round of applause for our panel here. [ applause ] and thank you for joining us.

thank you for our c-span audience for being with us and please come again.

>> when three days of oral argument begins. we'll bring you same day audio from the proceedings as they're released. 1:00 p.m. eastern team day. >> the genetic scientist who finally nailed down a rough date for when the hiv epidemic describes tinderboxes and wet moss. most worlds are wet moss, in most parts of the world there is not that much hiv but in some places it is a ton and incredibly destructive. so understanding that these two, sort of categories exist and -- and, allows you to think, okay, what are those factors that keep this virus moving and what can we do as a world to, to end it? >> on afterwards, craig timber tracks the history of aids.

sunday night at 9:00. part of a book tv weekend on c-span 2. >> this is c-span 3 with politics throughout the week. every weekend 4 hours of people and events telling the american story on american history tv. get our schedules and see past programs at our web sites. you can join in on social media sites. >> in january, the president of the national congress of american indians delivered the annual state of indian nations address. topics included the economic status of american indians and tribal relations with the federal government. congressman tom cole of oklahoma, a member of the nation respond to the speech the we also hear remarks from the senate indian affairs committee chairman and vice chairman. this is 1:20. >> good morning, my name is jacqueline peta, and i would

look to welcome you here to our state of indian nation ease vent. ncai is the largest, the oldest, and organization in washington, d.c. representing the tribal governments across the country. i would look to welcome our distinguished guests to washington, d.c. we have many folks listening to us across the country. to watch the state of 2012 state -- state of indian nations address. across the country we have students, tribal citizens, and leaders, and have gathered in the schools, and sent tircenter watch together. among many events across the country we are pleased mr. star's history class in santa fe, new mexico is joining us. we have university of oklahoma, college of law, center for native american youth in

washington, d.c., the tribal office and the indian tribe of wisconsin, leaders of tomorrow, and today's event, that are watching. and there are many other more watching events across the country. we're glad and happy that they're all joining us. we have an incredible turn out here today. we would look to acknowledge some of the guests in the audience. among those guests, special guests we have board members of ncaai. we have chairman ron allen, president ed thomas, chairman ned norris, president don arnolarnol arnold, and david gibb, and joined by tribal lead ears cross t -- leaders across the country. among our federal partners, of course, we have the esteemed hon honorable, and representative tom cole, assistant secretary, larry ekelhawk, and loretta

toole, and yvette rubido from ihs and aaron klein from treasury. we also have our native organizations partners, ernie stephens, chairman, rick west, from the housing council, finally, native voice one and many tribal and public radio stations across the country for airing today's address and bringing the state of indian nations to hundreds of thousand of people in indian country and beyond. this year we have asked an american indian service member to begin the event. it is my honor to introduce and welcome lieutenant colonel t.j. huntinghorse of the marine corps, a u.s. navy judge advocate at the pentagon. lieutenant colonel huntinghorse has participated in deployments in iraq and afghanistan.

please join me in thanking him for his continued service and welcoming him here today. lieutenant colonel huntinghorse. >> thank you. good morning. and it is my pleasure to introduce the president of the national congress of american indians, president jefferson keel, lieutenant-governor of the nation of oklahoma and was re-elected to the president of ncai. i am here today to represent the american and alaskan native service members and veterans and it is an honor to serve and protect all citizens of the united states including members of america any first nations. today, there are tens of thousands of active duty service members and over 300,000 native veterans who know the great sacrifice to protect our freedom and our sovereignty.

one of these great veterans is jefferson keel. president keel himself a retired u.s. army officer with over 20 years of active duty service. he has translated that sense of duty into serving the indian country and building a stronger america. ladies and gentlemen, president of the national congress of american indians, jefferson keel. [ applause ] . >> thank you. thank you for that warm introduction. i want to thank the native service members and veterans who have joined us today. many know the story of indian country, the challenges we have faced, and the ones we face today. but very few americans know the story of the hundreds of thousand of tribal members who have served in the united states military as far back as the revolutionary war. as a veteran myself, i want to thank colonel huntinghorse and

the 24,000 active duty american indian alaskan soldiers serving to day to protect the united states and the tribal nations of north america. thank you. [ applause ] my fellow tribal leaders, tribal citizens and american citizens, members of the national congress of american indians, members of the administration, members of the 112th congress, and those listening, or watching today, i am honored to speak to you all, but especially to address representatives of the more than 5 million native people and the 566 tribal nations of indian country. [ applause ] the state of indian nations is strong. our nations are strong. our people are strong.

like our sovereignty, the strength of our nations is our inheritance. the state of indian nations as i outlo outline defined by what we commit to right now to make the state of indian nations even stronger in the years to come. we all know tribes face a difficult history. we're rising from harsh economic conditions. tribes have been doing more with less for generations. and i'm here to outline a path to overcome our shared challenges, to lay out specific economic changes and improvements for our tribal nations. some of these changes require legislative action but many others can come from direct action by the administration. ultima ultimately, though, it will be the actions of native people that can change their nations and our communities. native people are the first

americans, tribal nations are the first governments of this country. one of the three sovereigns recognized in the united states constitution, and our america is a place where each member of the american family of governments contributes to a prosperous future. to achieve that vision, we need leaders who understand the indian country matters especially in a presidential election year. we all know the impact an election can have. in years many have come to know the door swings both ways. indian country can have an impact on elections and it can be game changing. as the grandmas on the navajo reservation and the young people of alaskan native villages go to the ballot box this november, they're standing on the shoulders of those who fought hard for that right. as students at arizona state

university and veterans in foreign lands cast their vote, they're reminding america that we matter. in the 1940s, thousands of native veterans returned home to a shocking reality, america had accepted them on the battlefield but had no place for them at the ballot box. ira hayes, a member of the indian community who raised the flag at iwo jima returned to the homeland and was denied the vote. another who enlisted as a marine in the days following pearl harbor returned home to new mexico and was denied the right to vote. these american heroes inspired the fight all the way to the federal courts for the right to participate in the 1948 elections. they expressed the power of the native vote for the first time -- the first time they cast

their ballots and it's been at work ever since. stories like these have shown native people that when it comes to native vote we can and we must think big. we will work tirelessly in 2012 to have the highest native vote turnout ever. we know that it can be done. for instance, on the reservation in montana, turnout rates are regularly over 80%. a survey of seniors shows that native young people participate at rates higher than any other group of students. this is especially important because almost half a million native youth will be eligible to vote for the first time in the next four years. native people didn't see the world and don't see the world in four-year election cycles. we're focused on building stronger communities for

generations to come. we want to vote for candidates who stand with tribal nations to create strong, prosperous futures. we're not mobilizing for one party or for one candidate. indians don't just vote "d" for democrat or "r" for republican. for us, it's "i" for indian. we're independent voters and we'll continue to vote for the candidate who is strong on our issues and cares about our priorities. that's why today i'm calling on all presidential canndidates to make sure indian countries at the table during the campaign and throughout your administration. these specific actions should form the foundation of your native policy platform. first, we call on the president to send a special message to congress on the importance of the nation to nation

relationship. in 1970 president nixon sent a historic message to congress on tribal self-determination. that message launched the self-determination era, the very framework that allowed tribes to prove our capacity as governments. all presidents should do the same. second, we call on the president to fully implement the united nations declaration on the rights of indigenous people. we specifically call for a review of all existing federal law to ensure they are in alignment with the declaration. third, we call for an annual nation-to-nation summit, an on ongoing high-level meeting to institutionalize the current tribal nation summit. a meaningful relationship that must be upheld by all future presidents. we also call on the president to

convene regular meetings on specific issues between cabinet secretaries. fourth, elevate native people in the federal government. it's pastime for qualified people to be seated on the bench. the appointment of an adviser on native american affairs has advanced polly making at the white house and we applaud president obama for his leadership. the importance of the indian budget in the coming decades, we urge the creation of an office for native american perhaps at the office of management and budget. finally, we call upon all candidates to actively engage indian country in your campaign. we invite each candidate to visit, outline your policy positions. we also urge the campaigns to make sure tribal nations are part of the discussion at the presidential debates.

between now and the election we have a lot of work to do. for all the partisan challenges of the past year, the congress has found common ground on indian policy. under the bipartisan leadership, the senate committee on indian affairs has reached across party lines to develop legislation that promises to transform indian country and in the house republicans like don young, democrats like dale kilde have worked hard to educate their constituents and colleagues about the benefits tribal governments offer our nation. there are some important things congress can do right now that can grow indian economies and create jobs without spending a time. the congress can fix the problem it's created by the supreme court decision and offer certainty for transaction that is are critical to the nick future.

the department of the interior is already acting to streamline, lease approval for renewable energy development and we urge congress to expand leasing reform and pass an indian energy self-determination law. congress can also act on public safety legislation that will attract businesses to our communities. we urge the passage of amendments to the stafford act that are supported by fema and would remove burdens have states and tribes in times of critical emergencies when lives are on the line. native women are the protectors of our culture, our family and future. we call on the senate to pass the violence against women act reauthorization, both of which would take critical steps to address the horrific rates of violence being perpetrated

against our women. the native class act offers a chance to provide the kind of education our young people need to succeed today and build economies indian country needs for tomorrow. our young people must not be left behind anymore. congress -- [ applause ] congress must stand with us now to get these bills passed. the long-term success depends on america keeping her promises. that's why ncai, along with our partners in indian country, are making available to you today our plan for the indian budget. this document outlines our vision for investing in the future of our america and stabilizing the indian budget. it will create reliable, safe