that must have been like. but at any rate, we -- we got these calls. i was convinced that there were people still left in the ambush side. >> right. >> we needed to do something to try to get support for them or get them out. at some point we decided we needed to go. so i basically made the decision that i was going to take a patrol and go out. so i include -- and i don't know whether you -- interviewed fred or not, said captain, you cannot leave this perimeter and go out on a patrol and try to -- you got more guys in here you need to worry about and who -- the xo is wounded. i have lieutenants that are down. i have a number of my key ncos -- i'm going to go out on a -- rescue mission. not even knowing what is out there. so cliff said i will do it. so he takes a patrol and some

stretchers that had been dropped off by the medevac guys coming in to go out into the lz. we are assuming we get a single radio call, probably not a lot of folks out there. probably. i don't remember the number but whatever the number was, we took enough guys to do two men stretches. i would imagine the -- maybe 15 guys went out. and -- we did sends a medic with them. his name is daniel torres. they get into the lc or kill zone. and -- so i include calls back and i said -- there's not one guy out here. there are a whole lot of guys out here. we can't bring them all back. i said okay, you need to make a decision. some of these guys are in bad shape. tully had come in with his

company and brought his medical team which gave us additional medical support. some of the guys need treatment. i knew that i had missing folks from my unit. part of the sojourn into that hell was looking for a company guys. the other guys i didn't -- i mean, they were -- there was some concern but there was more concern about the guys from knew company. and -- as reflected in the book, when you -- when you believe that you have rescued everybody, brought everybody back, and then some months later you find out that one of the guys, this -- was still out there.

and -- i think we went back out there in april. i think it was april. and found parts of his equipment that basically says he never got out. and after some investigation, as a matter of fact guys in his unit basically thought that they saw him getting on a helicopter because he was wounded. and the only reason that we realized he was missing is we had gotten a letter from his mother that had basically said she hadn't heard from him since december. november, december time frame. >> wow. >> go back out there and you find this guy. you never want to leave anybody back. that you left them. >> tell me about the next day. >> we -- we -- we got up the

next morning. and then -- went back into the lz. by that time some of the units from second of the seven were doing some. same kind of searching for american bodies. >> do you realize then what really happened up and down the line? >> right. we could see. i mean -- because we walked going back into the kill zone, we walk up the same trail where these guy has sprung in. lots of -- lots and lots of wounded dead and folks. i'm saying lots and lots. more than -- more than hi seen -- more than i had seen prior or more than i would see in any one given battle.

so it was -- one of the reasons -- you know, i think larry, one of his comments was -- no real glory in war. never been a war because this was -- what happens when you -- encounter that much violence in that short a period of time and how -- and i'm searching for the words here to -- forks -- to try to describe the emotion of going in the next day. >> yes. >> because i'm thinking long range as i'm going how do i get these guys -- because this is

not for a lot of these guys, this is not the end of the -- a number of them were scheduled to rotate in december. but for a lot of the guys, there was going to be a next day and there was going to be another battle and there was going to -- and i'm thinking how do i motivate these guys, how do i make sure what they are seeing here today will serve to keep them alert and then the question in my mind how do i as company commander keep them safe? >> what did you tell them? >> we talked. we -- we talked about the need for preparedness and the need for not being careless. and we always have discussions about taking care of your equipment and making sure that everything functions and that

you don't -- you don't lose sight of where you are because -- early part of there, it was -- more pacification. we kind of went around and handed out and -- medical stuff and got -- this was -- this was the rude awakening to us because up until that time, i think that we had -- i had -- up until that time i had one casualty in the company. and this guy was -- killed. he went out of the perimeter. and either didn't remember the password or didn't say the password quick enough and on the way back into the perimeter he was shot. this is -- i don't know whether you talked to freddie owens yet or not but this is -- this was one of freddie's buddies that

died in freddie's arms because, again, and i won't say it was carelessness but it was a lapse. a mental lapse. so we talked an awful lot about that. again, the rest of the guys went back second of the seventh, first of the seventh. they want back to thanksgiving dinner and whatever. we got back and my battalion commander said we have another operation. it is in -- we weren't back very long before we were out. but i think a better unit because -- i didn't have to tell them. make sure he had water, make sure you have your ammunition, weapon is ready to fire. you don't know to be smoking on a trail so if these guys can pick you up, you need to make sure that security is out.

once burned, you become a better unit and i think they became a better unit. and as a result of that battle. >> what was your morale like? >> low. really low. again, i had lost people. i think all of that -- i think that if you watch the -- the only time that -- in this -- after the -- war, the only time i seen hal moore break down is when he talks about this feeling that he had of -- his commander he survived and his guys didn't survive. and that's kind of the same feeling that we all -- he just expressed it a little bit. i think -- a lot more passion than a number of us. my morale was really low. what the hell am i doing here? why am i doing this? what's this really all about?

again, i'm 25, 26. what do i know about -- what ordained me to be this leader? because i went to -- infantry school or whatever at ft. benning or some guy at rotc told me. i mean, just makes it -- you start to question your ability to be able to manage this. then you have to start sitting down and writing these absolutely horrible letters. you know. i regret to inform you that your son died in -- there was no -- there's a form letter you can do but my mother would have been absolutely livid because she received a form letter from somebody that said, you know, the president regrets that your son was killed. i used to do those myself.

that's a hard task. hard task. >> looking back at albany now, what are your thoughts? what do you see in your mind's eye when you think about that now? >> waste. what a waste of young people's lives. you know. i don't know in those 17 guys what they might have been, could have been. and again, i know this sounds melodramatic, but who knows that robert hearst, radio operator, who was -- had often talked about what i want to do in the future? do i wouldn't go to medical school? suppose this was the guy who was -- go to medical school to become the next great carson

brain surgeon, whatever. those were all things you think about in hindsight. >> this is what you thought about over the years? >> had is what i thought about over the years. for a number of years until joe for a number of years until joe wrote this book >> 13 programs modeling after what we had written, but more r , untp , until j, unt boor book,book, i -p bo abr able p able to do t. np nor wounor would ip sit about it. when they first called me, i said -- you -- obviously you have the wrong guy because i do not want to talk about what happened to me in vietnam. and in a lot of ways i'm still reluctant to do it for a lot -- for a lot of the guys that you interview here -- this is not a criticism. for a lot of the guys you will interview here, this is their life. they are locked here. they are still -- can i do this once a year or maybe twice.

but after that, it is really hard for me to sit down and have discussion. everybody keeps telling me you need to -- you need to think about what if you hadn't done dwhash about all the guys -- i mean, like last night. i'm in this room with -- a bunch of guys and their wives and that your children. and their grandchildren. and whatever. not that i have any responsibility for them being there. there's a -- he or she have control over whatever. but if -- if hi done something different or just lay there on the ground and not done anything and the whole company -- i mean -- these guys wouldn't be -- they wouldn't be here. i don't want to make that sound like i had this great power over

making it happen. but it is a reality. when you see this, it is -- >> absolutely. it is still there. it is still there. i mean, it is -- it is a part of you that you can't -- can put away for a little while. but when they are staring you in the face, looking at you -- i haven't been able to successfully communicate it. sometimes i -- i don't think they understand that i'm not the captain anymore. i am not the guy that pulls it all together and that leads them and whatever. i am not -- i'm just me. >> they still see thaw way. >> oh, absolutely -- it is --

no. because it is an awesome responsibility. it really is. i mean, it is -- i know -- i know hal moore would never tell you this but i know he gets tired. i know he gets tired of leading this organization -- we are 40 years out. and he is still leading this organization. and he is 84 years old. i would not be surprised if hal moore says tonight enough. i'm going to do hal moore stuff. i know he enjoys doing this. again, at some point you have to step back. i guess a lot of it -- a lot of it is what you -- what -- the other piece of your life. i guess in my case, the other piece of my life, what i do now, is so rooted in you have to make decisions. sometimes i go home at night and don't studded don't ask me what to make a decision about what we

are going to do for dinner or where we are going to go to eat. i have done that all day, all i want to do is to put my feet up and turn on the western channel and watch gene autry. that might sound -- but it is -- so when i come to these and -- when we have these discussions about -- and i -- i -- i always want to be socially correct. and i always want to remember who they are. and i always want to remember what they did. but sometimes -- i will look in the faces of these guys and i don't have a clue. it is -- it is not that -- so long ago that i remember there are some faces that i remember.

and i -- i don't know how to communicate this but there were 123 guys in this unit. >> yes. >> and if they did what they are normally supposed to do as soldiers, them coming into my conscience, conscious, is remote. it is -- it is like -- i guess i can relate a lot of life ex- -- a lot of my after-life -- life experiences after the military to the millter tier. when i was principal of a high school, one of the commitments i made was i want to learn the names of all of the kids in this school. this was a school of 900. i know i'm not but what drives me to do that is because when i see these guys, i mean, i saw a

guy yesterday, i mean, i remember his name because in the book, i don't remember him because he was a good soldier. and being a good soldier the company commander doesn't pay attention. it is like in school. we don't pay attention to the -- the -- average good kid. we look at the ap kids. we give them lots of attention. we look at the kids on the other end of the spectrum. in the middle there is great book written by a guy called "the neglected majority." it is about -- it is so reflective of the world that we live in. those folks in the middle and who pay their taxes and vote and do whatever, nobody pays attention to them. it is the high fliers and the low achievers. and the -- the health and

strength of this nation is in that middle group. and in my -- in my college years, i remember -- i cannot remember the names of the number one graduate from my college. he -- probabhad month clue but t middle group, there are a lot of guys in that middle group that i do remember. and maybe it is because -- i was in the middle group. and maybe on the low end of the middle group in terms of achievement, accomplishment, i just -- and so i'm -- kind of circling back to why do you want to be the leader? i didn't want to be a leader in school, i think, in my relationship with my parents and my brothers and sisters because

i was if seconds child. there were -- not a lot of expectation for the second child. at least in my mind. my father tells me now that's a misnomer on my part. but i have an older brother who has my father's name. he is a junior. he was a high flier, overachiever. he got lots of attention. my reaction to that was be a low flier and you will get lots of attention, too. so here i am 67 years old now and i walk into a room of men that i have not seen in a year and i'm not sure what their expectations are. >> commentary on leadership. that book and your reputation precedes you.

now you want to be one of the guys. the burden of leadership is not necessarily a horrible burden but this -- a burden of leadership from albany and from this company and going forward with this company. with still with you. >> and i guess at some point maybe i will get comfortable with it. but i am not comfortable with -- walking in a room and guys coming up and saying sign my book. and so -- i mean, what do you say? i don't wouldn't sign your book? you sign the book and whatever. then when you do that, i -- i guess -- you con to learn as you

grow. when we -- what really kind of made this dash or pulled this to some different level for me, when we went out to -- california for the screening of the movie, i had the pleasure of having some meaningful conversation was sam elliott. and in that conversation i made a mistake. i you had a program in my hand. and i asked him to sign the program. his persona changed and he basically said to me i'm here for you guys, not here to be a celebrity. those weren't his exact words. but -- that was kind of his -- and that's kind of where i am. the guys -- the valuable guys at this reunion are freddie and

perth. fred clue. al montgomery, alan brown. it is not -- you know. they are not here. >> tell me about them. i mean, that might be a way to escape it. >> yeah, yeah. because maybe i need them as much as they need me. >> do they know that? that you need them like they need you? >> no. because i -- i don't think i have gotten -- i don't think i have gotten in touch with my sensitivity to be able to communicate that to the men. the other piece is we never have time for meaningful conversations. it is -- i mean, tonight when we go to the dinner, we will be overcome by lots of stuff. so to sit down and have a meaningful conversation with

these guys about what you feel and how you feel and where you are, whatever, i have never done that. the only guy that -- that i have spent after vietnam some quality time with is don adams. and that's just been recent. we go to typhoon games together. he is a big georgia tech guy. we go down and spend time. i stay at his house. but we have never had real dialogue about the war and what we did in the war. i don't think we have reached that comfort level yet. we -- and donnas s a funny guy. a lot of our experiences are about funny stuff that happen whether we were in -- safe stuff. that doesn't make you vulnerable or sensitive or whatever. maybe my discussion of this sensitivity is -- yeah. maybe it is probably therapy for

me. i don't know. >> are you going to have those conversations? >> at some point. at some point. yeah. it is -- it is a work in progress. as -- as i am a work in progress. >> we recall. >> as we all are. as we all are. >> okay.

we're now standing at the madison family cemetery. this is where members of the madison family have been buried since james madison's grandfather first settled this land in the 1720s. in fact, it was madison's grandfather, ambrose madison, who was the first individual to be buried here. in the 1720s, he patented this land. he sent a crew of slaves out to comply with the legal requirements, which were that he seat and plant the property. seat means build a residence. plant means start farming. he followed in 1732 with his family. within six months, he was dead. interestingly enough, it has been only in the past ten years that we have discovered ancient court records that indicate that three slaves were tried and convicted for murdering ambrose madison. we know one of them was executed, according to the court records. and two were punished and returned to their owners.

it's interesting how we look at this evidence and how we interpret it. all it tells us is that three slaves were tried and convicted. we don't really know who did it. we know the court system found them guilty. it does tell us, though, that even an enslaved african-american on a plantation was regarded as an individual who was legally responsible for their actions and could be held accountable. now, again, we need to look at this record and realize there are many different interpretations and meanings that could be read into it. there are over 100 members of the madison family buried here. but you would never know that by looking at it because, in fact, there are only about 40 tombstones in this cemetery. we know from these records, in fact, that madison's grandparents, ambrose and his wife, are buried in unmarked graves.

we know that madison's parents are buried in unmarked graves. in fact, the marker on james madison's grave was not put in place until some 20 years after he passed away. this pathway leads to the slaves' cemetery here at montpelier. and it really communicates a very important aspect of the montpelier plantation. which is that there were many, many african-americans living here, many more than members of the madison family, and that this was their home as well. they formed a community. they had relations with each other, with slaves in neighboring plantations. so this was a thriving, self-sufficient community -- plantation community. they, too, needed a burial spot. it is markedly different from

the madison family burial. it's not enclosed by a brick wall. it's here in an area where trees have subsequently grown up. so it has received less attention by subsequent owners. let's go back and take a look. there are no markers of the grave sites here. and what gave the evidence that presented itself is that at the coffins rotted and collapsed, the ground above them settled so that a careful mapping of this area, a three-dimensional mapping -- and you can actually see that in this computer schematic here, reveals that the ground here is actually marked with the remains of each of those graves. there are about 40 of them here. we think there are many other graves here as well. they likely were filled in when the slave community was still actively taking care of the cemetery prior to emancipation at the end of the civil war. an oral tradition that descendants of montpelier slaves