years later, as i say, i was in the united states. and i decided to try to revive the relationship. they say he was a senior figure in the united states and journalist. i call him and say, best regards from your old friends in moscow. and i reminded some of the guys. he said, if you call again, i'll call the fbi. that was the end of it. as i said, we had over 300 as i mentioned sources. they believed in socialism or communism as a future of humanity. and i myself, when i graduated from high school in 1952, i was a stalinist. i mean, stalin was alive. he was a great victorious leader. when he passed away march 5th of 1953, i was in training at that time -- well, foreign languages,

english, german, arabic would follow. my mom called me and said our dad passed away. she was weeping over the phone. i didn't understand my father was young. i said, what do you mean? our dad joseph passed away. i went to the class. i said josef stalin -- it was over the radio within a half an hour. everyone cried, it was such a shock. and what a shock it was. much worse in 1956 when khrushchev in his infamous secret speech at the party congress revealed the atrocities and brutality of josef stalin. for all of us, it was really short. the soviet system, we cannot build a paradise on earth on the bones of millions of people. that was the novel thing about my own system. and from that moment on -- of course, i came to the united states. i was a -- i finished intelligence school and everything else.

i came as a scholar. my first impressions of the united states were based on my education, upbringing. i came to times square, i was just totally revolted by the vulgarity. i thought, this is the united states. next day i went to bowery, new york poverty. i said, this is the country. a symbol of human -- future, no way. and i became even more dedicated communist than ever. later i would have a good career as a radio consultant. i recruited seven americans, one would have access to information that would make a historic film -- access to solid fuel for missiles.

the chemical corporation, you may have heard of that company. but that was years ago. later as a correspondent to radio moscow, i recruited someone who had no access to anything classified. at some point, he was a member of the united states communist party, but when stalin and hitler made a pact of friendship, he quit. i met his young son who worked at a nuclear lab for columbia university. he professed to be a socialist. i said, okay, why don't you write a piece for me about life of american students who have to work and study. he said okay. i thought good. when we met a week later, he came empty-handed.

i said, what's wrong. he said, well, you're a soviet i'm an american. i said, what's wrong, you said you're a socialist, you're a fake. i said, i'm sorry. he walked away. a week later i walk somewhere near columbia university campus. and i'm approached by a man in his late 40s or early 50s, i thought it was a p.i., he said, you are mr. kalugin. i said, yeah, what can i do for you. he said, listen don't touch my son. you tried to recruit my son. i said what are you talking about? i said, come on, leave me alone. i'll work with you. i said what do you mean? i will work for you, i know what you want. i said, okay, what can you do for us? i was young, inexperienced and later when i reported to moscow they said it was a fake, he was an fbi plant. i said, well, he looked sincere. he never had access to anything classified.

but he was one of the most trusted agents in my time. he would do a lot of things. he would travel out of the country as an american. he would establish contact with lost sources, but he had a more important mission. in case the war was imminent between the united states and the ussr, one of his missions was to blow up lines in washington, d.c., or new york area and poison water supplies. not to kill people. just to make people uneasy. simple things, but that was part of the mission. fortunately, thank god he never had to do that. but that was the old days, when we really thrived on ideology, when i -- one of the guys

interesting to you, was a high schoolkid, a graduate. and he was fingered by one of the old members one of the united states communist party. he said, why don't you meet this young man, he wants to become a member of the communist party, talk to him. i meet this young man. you want to become a member of the united states communist party? are you sure? he said oh, yeah. i said, okay, do you know that the communist party is totally infiltrated and controlled by the fbi? oh, no, come on, who said -- well, i know what i tell you. if you do really want to become a member, why don't you fill out the form, you know, application. give it to me, i'll pass it to moscow, they'll keep it in a safe, good place. and you'll be a secret member of the communist party. is that all right? that's great. he was a graduate of high school, but later would develop a good working relationship when he grew up. he became a mature man. i'm talking about these small things, they are important for

intelligence business. but let me tell you, khrushchev's speech delivered a mortal blow. when i came to washington as deputy chief of the kgb. and later acting chief of station, and we really felt pressures which would be later picked up by great president reagan. by the way, it was mr. gorbachev who called president kennedy a great president. that doesn't happen often, when a soviet leader would call an american president a great

leader. well, anyway, i came to washington, and there were no ideological spies any more. illusions were all just destroyed. and we were just capitalize on those who wanted to make money. i will just mention one case, because it may be interesting how you treat intelligence and what may happen. john walker was one of the guys i admired. he was a totally money-motivated guy, he was a volunteer, and we befriended him. he would work for the next 20 years, and recruited his son and brother. anyway, in 1968 i'm acting chief of kgb station in washington. and august 21st, i believe, the soviet troops are about to move into czechoslovakia to crush the you know, anti-socialist elements. and i receive a cable from moscow saying they informed the ambassador -- at that time, for many years, 20 years or, so

never became minister, because he was distressed with the united states -- so i come to ambassador to show him the cable that tomorrow the troops of the warsaw treaty will enter into czechoslovakia to crush the anti-soviet cia-sponsored revolt. well, that was really a moment. i have access to this information classified from all over the intelligence community of the united states. except j. edgar hoover kept the organization in good shape. but not in the fbi at that time. there was one attempt, but that was years before. so i give this cable to the ambassador, he reads it, look at me, i look at him.

silence. and then for the first time in my life, i say fools, the ambassador's response, idiots. that's how we became friends. can you imagine, the acting chief of station of the kgb and soviet ambassador calls them fools and idiots. that did not prevent me from my career, because no one knew we were good friends. and well what happened on the way to success. when i became chief of foreign counter intelligence which is a major branch of the soviet kgb and remains for today we had 160 foreign assets, primary -- our job was penetration of world security organizations of the world, the cia, fbi, number one.

everyone else, well, in fact, let me tell you. as i mentioned in the united states, we had over 300 agents. i mean, total numbers, soviet sources. the next country was france, 160. the third country was india, 150. and the fourth was the united kingdom, over 50. some of the guys came to me and said, i supervise them, not in london, but moscow. i'm familiar, but that part of the work of treating former employees or officials of the foreign secret, keep them happy. some of them were not quite happy. some would drink a lot and commit suicide. so in moscow, i became chief of counter foreign intelligence.

and we managed to increase our agents -- i mean, sources, network to more than 500. two thirds of them were members of foreign intelligence and counter intelligence organizations. and radio-free europe. radio liberty. creations of the cia, we tried to penetrate and to redirect them and get some information from the inside. one of the chief of the russian section of radio liberty which also broadcast into eastern europe which would become a soviet agent. chief of the russian section of radio liberty. when i became a public figure at some point in my life, that guy was already in -- back in

russia, because he was to be arrested. and he denounced me public as a traitor. traitor. working for the kgb for i worked more than you did. foreign counter intelligence. four major functions. penetration of foreign intelligence organizations. the penetration of all organizations, russian ukrainian, baltic states, wherever. one of the best penetrations we made at the time and it's still going on. the russian orthodox church. you must understand, the russian orthodox church survived and entrusted itself to the post soviet regime because they collaborated.

i'll give you one simple example, because it will take too long. many years later when i became a public figure, and i said, this is what i told you about the russian church association. with the security and the kgb. and i publicly called the moscow patriarch. his response was interesting. he invited me to dinner at his home and two of us, just a servant provide -- he would tell me, he said, listen i was an informer, that's correct. you know what, you're a young man. i tell you something. the russian orthodox church, after the communist revolution, one third had to immigrate, the other third were jailed and executed. the third, they had to adjust to realities, i had to survive, i had to -- and this is how we promote.

the church. i'm just talking about that because in the old days, the soviet system was built on three pillars. number one, the communist party, kgb number two, and the industrial military complex number three. today there's a difference. on top of the state and everything stands the kgb. that never happened in the history of mankind. the organization with the reputation of the kgb is now running the country. nearly 1,000 employees of the kremlin administration, including mr. putin himself, who was one of my subordinates, they are former kgb officers or informers. the 1,000 -- and what would you expect from the country which is of that kind of penetration? some of the guys would say publically i was rather cautious in my public pronouncements. one of them died of poisoning in

london, that was his personal attack. mr. putin, i'm talking about one man poisoned. another lady who raised her voice against the russians in chechnya. by the way, i was also against an intervention. let them go. where would they go? south to armenia? they would have to deal with russia anyway. stop that war. that was one of the major clashes with the current regime and no wonder, at some point called mr. putin a traitor. he will face -- like mr. milosevic would end as a war criminal because of what he did in kosovo. well anyway, back to the old days, gorbachev when he came to power, he

really revived, resurrected hopes in the development of russia on a different path. all before that, i suspect you're being a cia agent of influence. i'm proud it was released later on. i was recruited by the cia in 1958, i believe, that's correct. together with another guy. who was also, a student of world war ii veteran. he was also at colombia, we were recruited by the cia. and from that moment on, we would try to push them out of the way and provide free road to the cia. in that sense, and i'm going

back to president reagan. played a tremendous role. he would never -- he would always say plainly and clearly, when he -- i remember that so well, tear down that wall, mr. gorbachev. despite their friendly, open relationship he was really attached in a human way. no wonder he was suspected at some point he was too friendly with the united states, and would later be denounced gorbachev as a traitor. he's called sometimes a traitor. no one knows. but that's the thing which happened, but before gorbachev would fall in that category of traitors, when i spoke openly for reforms inside the kgb and my experience in the united states was not a waste of time, i learned that in a free country

you have to have several organizations dealing with security and intelligence. you cannot combine them in one fist because that one fist is a road to dictatorship. that's exactly what happened in russia, only kgb, no one else. the giu military intelligence was all infested with kgb informants. and the defense department. they would not move around freely. we were in charge. well, in the united states these five different organizations and that was my idea. i offered it to these when i became vocal. i said, we have to split the kgb in two. i'm very happy to say that. it did happen. we now have -- russian intelligence service. fsb russian domestic. equivalent to the fbi. half a million all together, smaller organization. well, of course the -- an equivalent of the national security agency. all these decoding foreign intelligence.

i mean, all sorts of diplomatic traffic. and, of course, border guards and security -- the presidentiah so-called directive, well, presidential security service in the united states, you know. well, but in -- in the former ussr it was overblown out of proportions and i offered -- well, make it -- to squeeze out, well, as a result, mr. gash gash said and the others that i was a traitor. i was charged with treason. i was stripped of my rank and my decorations. i was summoned to the military prosecutor, and on the day that i was to appear at the military prosecutor, face charges of treason, i was registered as a candidate to the russian parliament, and i obtained immunity from prosecution. from that moment on, i would become even more vocal and i would travel around the world,

the united states and europe and all over and would say what i'm saying to you now. that was, you know, years ago. well, in the end, as you know, gorbachev was hated by the kgb, really. oh, they did hate him because he reduced some of those liberal reforms, he was really -- i'm not surprised that they found a common grounds and the human touch with president reagan. i mean, he wanted to reform the country without losing, you know, the great communist ideals, but he did not understand what i said earlier. you cannot build a paradise on earth on the bones of millions of people, and he wanted to change, but he would bump into great opposition from the military, from the kgb, and, well, when i spoke, i mean, openly about that, he issued a decree stripping me of everything and i was charged with what i told you. well, later on after the august events of 1991 when gorbachev

came back to power, fully reinstated, i was invited to the kremlin reception, i mean, by gorbachev, i mean, personally, and he just apologized, shook my hand, and i was so happy. back to everything, and -- and i'll tell you honestly i did not understand. i did not realize. i mean, that six weeks later the ussr will just exist no more. yeltsin will emerge as the leader of the russian federation, and all other republics, baltic states, i mean, ukraine, i mean, they all became independent. that was the beginning of the new era. i was really appalled. i did not really mean that. i thought the more solidarity internationalists we have, wherever we live, that's good for the whole world, but the --

this -- this dissolution of the soviet union, well, now, my -- my former subordinate, i mentioned mr. putin, vladimir, they were working intelligence one day. that's a major misconception, i mean, primarily made by the soviet propaganda. the only place abroad he ever worked was in dresden in germany. he was liaison officer between russian kgb and the stasi, the east jer began security and intelligence service and that was the interest. when he came back to leningrad, st. petersburg where i was born, we were born actually in the same block, mr. putin and i, well, he was never accepted back to work. well, the reasons are generally known, and i said again, if you read the files, and the fact that he was poisoned, he revealed on the internet, made it public, some of the ugly things from mr. putin's personal

life. i'm not going to say about that. that's after all not the point. what is the point that gorbachev when he emerged from, you know, and he made first time an opening to the west, and he found common -- i mean, a friend, and probably kind of a mental or soul with president reagan. that was something of a great event of the history of the two countries and probably worldwide, and recall in the early '80s when president reagan publicly mentioned the so-called star war program, that's what it was called, the soviets were in dismay. this is a warmonger. we have to take everything to get rid of him, and, well, as it turns out, president reagan was a practical -- i mean, a really pragmatic guy who had his own ideals and who wanted to finish

with the system of slavery. and, well, well, well, it was a russian system wrought a single thought. margaret thatcher said that. the soviet system fell apart without a single shot, and president reagan played a tremendous role in bringing down the soviet system. well, as i mentioned earlier, there is a growing restoration of the soviets, i mean, not in the worst ways, systems in current russia, and this is what you have to bear in mind. the soviet intelligence have revived, and as i said earlier about the three pillars, well, of the old days, the three pillars are kgb as i said number one, russian orthodox church number two and russian business people who are willing to collaborate. if they do not, they are in london like mr. bear sovsky,

mr. berezovsky, billionaire, met in washington one day years ago and he said how he picked up putin. he thought he would be, you know, kind of his sort of player, and he would manipulate, but he was wrong. putin had his own pride and dignity, and that would not work. well, another guy who would raise the voice was another man now in jail serving five or ten or seven. they always increase the number of years they are going to be in prison, and another guy, yeah, mr. guzinski who established russian independent television and now lives in israel. so russia is facing a difficult problem, and it's thanks to some people like mr. gorbachev and president ken -- i mean, president reagan who did move these things forward and found a way to collaborate despite our

ideological national and ethnic differences and that's why we are great tribute to president reagan at his library. thank you. the genetic scientist who finally nailed down, you know, a rough date for when the hiv epidemic starts describes tinder boxes and wet moss. most of the world was wet moss and most parts of the world there's not that much hiv. and yet in some places there's a ton, and it's incredibly destructive so understanding that these -- that these two sort of categories exist and allows you to think, okay, what are those factors that keep this virus moving, and what can we do as a world to -- to end it?

>> on "afterwords," author craig timber tracks the history of aids tonight at 9:00. part of a book tv weekend on c-span 2. in a city whose public god is dominated by statesmen and generals on horseback, renditio mathematician and scientist albert einstein stands out. perhaps because there's little of the monumental about that washington monument, even though it stands 12 feet taul and weighs approximately four tons. here, robert burke's whose distinctive style led some to label him the bubblegum sculpture gives us a genial, almost playful atop a bench of carolina granite the famed scientist holds in his left hand a document listing some of his most significant theories. bench contains quotes, testifying to einstein's unwavering beliein tolerance, equality before the

law and the duty of any truth-seeker to reveal his findings, no matter where they lead. the circular foyer of the astronomical map showing much of the universe as it appeared at the date of its dedication in april 1979 cncided with einstein's 100th birthday. visitors of all ages are drawn to the iconic figure on the grounds o academy. children especially enjoy climbing into the lap of thewite of a grandfather. this weekend on the presidency on american history tv -- >> think of the fdr memorial. it wasn't just three redesigns. it was three-plus designs before they got to a final -- a final plan, and so i -- i think