comes in a couple of pieces to carry with them. >> what do you find to be the best part and maybe even worst part about your job? >> i think the best part is you never know what you're going to see. you never know what you're going to find. when opening up all these boxes, it's like christmas every day. you never know exactly what you're going to find. i -- that's definitely the best part. the worst part, i can't think of anything off the top of my head. it's all fun. we get to take care of great things. some of our stuff looks really new. sometimes people say, well, why do you wear gloves when you carry that brand new thing around that just looks like you bought it yesterday? but we're preserving it for the future so we don't want to leave our hand oils on it now so in a couple hundred years it's damaged. we take care of it from the start. >> all weekend long, american history tv is featuring little rock, arkansas. to explore its rich history.

you're watching american history tv. 48 hours of people and events telling the united states story. the united states built and operated ten internment camps after the bombing of pearl harbor. the eastern most were located in arkansas towns of jerome and butler. there's a collection of crafts and artworks created by internees at the rower camp. >> the arts and crafts were sort of how they kept their sanity and it gave them something to do. depression was so bad in a lot of the camps in that people -- there was a high incidence of suicide. so people would make these things of beauty to give to each other just as a way to say we support you and we care about you and here is a little something to cheer you up. i think that they really used the art as a way of expressing hope in a time that sort of seemed hopeless.

the camp opened in 1942 in september. the first people arrived then and then over the next several months the bulk of them came. they filled their time working within the camps. but then they also had a good bit of free time, too, that they had to fill. and so a lot of the things that are in the collection that we received are pieces of art that people in the camp did. some of it was done by students as class assignments in school. but a lot is 3d art and found object art that was from people trying to do what they could to decorate their barracks or to entertain their children. again, when they moved, they weren't able to bring a lot of toys. they had to make toys for their children. they definitely weren't able to bring decorative things with them. they tried to make the barracks as home-like as possible and have some sense of normalcy for their children and families.

>> jamie vogel was an art teacher at the rower camp. after the camps closed, she maintained this huge collection. she willed this collection to rosalie santeen gould who lived in mcgee. she wanted a place where it could be more publicly accessible. she contacted us at the butler center for arkansas studys. she wanted to find a place where not only the documents could be maintained but the artwork could be main and the. because we had both a research room and art gallery, she knew this would be a place where everything could stay together and it would remain as the collection. >> the collection is kept in our research room closed stacks which is through this door. rosalie gave us a couple hundred pieces of art and about 20 boxes of documents.

this is one of my fate pieces that wasn't part of the original collection that rosalie gave us. one of rosalie's caveats one of rosalie's caveats for giving us this art ap documents, we make this publicly available to anyone wanting to see it. she was very specific that anyone who came from the camps or their descendants that wanted to see the art, that they should be able to see it. they should be able to touch it. they should be able to look at it because it was so much of their heritage. after we received the collection through all the publicity we got, we started being contacted by other people who had little pieces of memorabilia or things from the camps or things related to the camps that they wanted to add to the collection. so we've sort of continued rosalie's tradition of receiving things from people so that this part of history can be preserved. now, this piece was given to us

by a pair of twins whose family was at the camp at rower. they told the story that a man who lived in the same block that they did had carved this for and so this was in their barrack the whole time that they were growing up. then when they moved away they took it with them and it had stayed in their mother's house the whole time. they wer witst other art from the collection and it would become part of the rower story here in arkansas. because it was such a swampy area, it was filled with cypress trees. so they had these cypress roots. and the people in the camp would go out and collect these cypress roots because they wanted to >> what is kobu? >> kobu is the heart of a tree root and what they would do is gather these and then boil them

and peel away all of the outer bark and it would leave these wonderful little bumpy art forms. kobu actually means bump. you would have these little art forms and they would polish them and use them just for decorative pieces. and then this is an example of a vase that was made out of the cypress tree stump. so they would use that as a flower vase. this folder has an interesting item. it came from the department of justice and it's conduct be observed by alien enemies. keeping in mind the vast majority of the people who were here were american citizens at the time they were taken away to the camps. and these regulations have things like no alien enemy shall be affiliated with any organization designated by the attorney general as opposed to

the public interest of the united states nor shall any alien enemy attend any meeting or possess or distribute any literature of such an organization. the other thing in this folder are little coupon books from the camp canteen. most of the people who were in camp worked in some capacity. some worked in the kitchens. a lot of them worked outside the camp helping clear land. they were paid a very small wage for doing that. then they could use these coupon books at the canteen to purchase supplies. when they first got there, they had very few things to choose from. but over time they were able to purchase art supplies and they even ordered things out of catalogs. at the point that the people knew they were going to be sent to the camps, they had to disperse themselves of all of their business things, their farms, their houses, their vehicles. anything that they couldn't take

to camp. some of them tried storing some of their possessions. a lot of them just sold things off. they sold it off sort of at fire sale prices. they didn't get hardly anything of what their possessions were worth. so they didn't really come to the camp wealthy people. the people in the camps found wonderfully creative ways to deal with the shortages of materials and personal items. for example, they were able to make zori shoes out of scrap material and just braided canvas to give them tread. >> how did they know how to do this? >> necessity. necessity became the mother of invention for them. i'm sure some of the people who were there already had skills

and passed those on to their neighbors and friends. but they used whatever was available. this one is made out of dried grass that they made from the surrounding area. this would be like a shower shoe. they made a lot of their own tools. they would take dinner knives and things and sharpen them to use as carving tools. and then as time went on, again, they were able to order things from catalogs or get supplies. also a lot of community groups would send things in to the camps because there was a lot of sympathy for the people who had to move in there. so the good hearted people would put together care packages and send in these three pieces are bird pins that were from scrap wood. these were phenomenon all over the camps.

they didn't take a lot of materials to do. it became a real skill for people to make these little birds. they would use things like audubon prints as their models. if you look at bird pins from the different camps, you'll see the same model bird from a lot of different locations. but there's some really wonderful things about these pieces. obviously they're beautifully carved and the painting on them is just highly detailed. but you can see things like, on the back they used little safety pins for clasps. and because bird legs are so small, they couldn't really carve them well. so they would use tiny pieces of wire to make the legs. and i heard stories about how they would take little pieces off the salvage edge of the window screens for the wires and twist them together to make these little bird legs. >> what does this work tell you about the type of people who are at this camp?

>> i think the fact that they took so much pride in the things they were making and they worked so hard to create these little things of beauty, tells you a lot about the spirit of the people who were in the camps. i think the important thing to take away from this story is not to panic. a lot of people have talked about the similarities between the attack on pearl harbor and 9/11 because that's another instance when something terrible happened and there was a lot of confusion and the automatic response was, well, let's round up all of these people and protect ourselves from them. it was very interesting to hear people from the japanese american community talk about their reactions during 9/11 and after 9/11 when there was a lot of talk about condemning an

entire people because of the acts of a handful of people and how they just wanted people to remember what had happened in this case so that they didn't make the same mistake again. all weekend long, american history tv features little rock, arkansas. learn more about little rock, find out where cspan's local content vehicles are going next online at cspan.org/localcontent. you're watching american history tv all weekend every weekend on cspan3. next, we examine thomas sever

son's idea of american express. this is 50 minutes. i am going to talk about ut founders. students of american history know he was not there, therefore he was not the father or in any way related to the document produced at philadelphia, but he and james madison, of course, were lifetime friends. madison is a so-called father of the constitution. and what i want to talk about a

little bit today is the quarrel between these great friends who supported each other in a common project to secure the success of this great experiment in republican government. and what we can learn from their quarrels and their differences. and to get a better sense of this, i want to start by suggesting that the anxieties that president boren articulated about today's sense of polarization of driftlessness, of the imminent collapse of the republic as the world gets warmer and warmer, i know that's a controversial position in oklahoma, and he didn't say anything about this. i think the best way to get into the founding is to understand that these were anxious people too, in anxious times. if you think things are bad now,

put yourself into their world. imagine what it would have been like in a weak union of republican states on the brink of falling apart, when the very idea that the people were capable of governing themselves was extremely controversial. in fact, the idea of democracy itself had pejorative, negative connotations. what is democracy? democracy is the rule of the mob, of the people. and the people are a beast. what would they do if they got power? well, they'd redistribute property. have you heard that before? the first charges of socialism in american history go back to the founding when anxious elites, rich people, worried that the common folk would gain control of the government.

and pass what they called agrarian policies. that is, to redistribute as in ancient rome. agrarianism used to be a dirty word. remember, the american revolution was not a popular movement in its origins. it was a movement of elites of people like thomas jefferson to protect their position in the british empire. it was a movement to reform the british empire. americans didn't want to be americans. sometimes these days, some of us don't want to be americans. they wanted to be british. they wanted to enjoy the rights of englishmen. but their world was on the verge of falling apart. they won the american revolution, but that notion of 70% that professor -- president warren mentioned, well, john adams thought that perhaps as many as 67% of the american people weren't fully on board with the american revolution. we historians think he's

exaggerating a little bit. but you get the point. there were many loyalists, happily, most of them left. no, i'm joking. most of them were accepted and incorporated in american society. there were many people who thomas paine would have called fair weather friends. which army is where? the great problem was how could this republic of republics, this loose federation, survive? now, nobody was more conscious of the problems of union and the problems of the future of the united states than thomas jefferson, precisely because he was not in the united states, but aware of its weakness, of its impotence, of the absolute compelling to do something. -- necessity to do something. but did they do the right thing in philadelphia? that is a short version of the question americans have been asking themselves ever since.

i want to tell you, as a student of the early republic, that there is no universal agreement among the founders, some of whom didn't sign, among americans, in the ratifying conventions. it was a very near thing. the language of miracle that there was some divine intervention is actually an expression of how close the whole thing came to falling apart. given the kind of people we are, you might say, how could the union possibly have survived? how could we have a union that would include the great slave holders of south carolina and the chesapeake and my ancestors, not on my polish side, my other ancestors, those flinty new englanders and their intolerance of the great neigh bobs of the south. that's just a caricature of some of the differences. but these colonies that became

states had no common bond, aside from their connection with britain. they were much closer, because of the nature of their economies and societies to british society than to any emerging american society. the very idea of america is an invention. and this is the sense of the significance of the founding enterprise. we better get it right now, because this is the only way we can guarantee that we will be remembered. the idea of the founders, it's their idea. they saw themselves as law-givers at this unique moment in world history. the first time you could ever do this, determine your own destiny. well, the idea that they got it right, of course, is central to our civic religion in america. we worship the founders.

thomas jefferson said, don't. and that's the point i want to make today. there is nobody in the founding period who is more conscious of both the danger of the union, the risks, but also he's more intensely conscious of the rights of an individual. there is a strong libertarian tendency in jefferson's thought and his obsession with rights. on the other hand, there's a strong tendency toward realism, to be aware of the great dangers confronting the nation. and the need to mobilize the force of the nation to sustain its enterprise. so what was the problem with the constitution? why did he say to his good friend, madison, "i don't think we should revere this document. it has many imperfections, and nothing personal, jemmy, but i don't see you as a father or as a founder." now, i'm paraphrasing. it's only because i know him so well, i can say this.

as i frequently point out. jefferson never would have gotten tenure at the university of virginia. his publication list is extremely limited. and he was a lousy public speaker. so why wouldn't he say, "good work, mr. madison," and we should all rally around this document? why at just the moment when madison wanted him to say, well-done. i understand you had to make compromises that you're not happy with, but you did the right thing. why did jefferson say, "everybody on earth has a right to a bill of rights, and there's not one in the constitution." that's a major defect. and what about this idea that the president can be re-elected. you know, there's only one plausible candidate for president, and everybody knew who that was going to be. and i'm not going to mention his name.

later today, you'll see gordon wood's neck tie. and it has this man's signature all over it. one person had face recognition images circulated of this one person. but was that the future? well, what if this president is perpetually re-elected and that becomes the constitutional precedent? well, then we are squinting, more than squinting to borrow patrick henry's phrase, at monarchy. didn't we fight a revolution on the premises of the declaration of independence that all men are created equal, and government is based on the consent of the people? is that a one-off? about that just happen in 1787 or in the ratification meetings that took place thereafter when the people said yes, that's it, folks. shut up. you have a constitution.

what is consent? that's jefferson's question. and that raises the question of democracy. and this is the main point i want to make in the few minutes that i have this morning. is to suggest, in case it's news to you. but i want to suggest that there is a fundamental tension between the traditional rule of law and constitutionalism and what we call democracy. jefferson became a democrat because he recognized that tension. and that is, jefferson made war throughout his entire career against the principles of monarchy and aristocracy. that one single family should rule, simply because of their genealogical connections.

republicanism is based on the principle that, as he put it in a famous letter to james madison, the earth belongs to the living. every generation. and that would include us, now. we are the source of our own authority. here's jefferson's radical answer to the question of who are the founders. madison and his colleagues wanted to be remembered as founders. they wanted to have fame, a great obsession of the 18th century. sort of secular substitute for going to heaven is to be remembered in future generations. this was a heady moment for these people, but jefferson said, wait. there's a problem here. if this experiment is going to succeed, it's because we are our

own founders. we have created this republic, and we will sustain it. they were anxious then. we are anxious now. that anxiety is the predicate of republican government. it's not going to be easy, folks. now, i don't want to get into a secular sermon about these times we live in. but i want to give you some insight into how jefferson went about answering the question of how do you reconcile the sovereignty of the people with limitations on -- limitations on power that secure rights. here's the paradox. if all power comes from the people and the only legitimate break on the people's power is the people's power. how do you mobilize that?

how do you keep a democratic people through processes of majority rule, the mother principle of republicanism or democracy? how do you keep them from abusing that authority because they will do it. madison famously talked about republican solutions to the problems of republican government. he was a mechanic, devising elaborate machinery to keep americans from destroying each other. a balance of power. jefferson said, you know, what you're really doing -- i am again channelling jefferson. what you're really doing, jimmy, is you are repackaging the old regime, mixed government. you're just an anglophile. this is not the solution. this is the problem. this is -- we don't have a house of lords. we come up with some fancy classical way of talking about the senate. we don't have a king. we have a president. and, of course, our president merely presides. that's the theory. let's be honest about this new world that we have brought into being.

and let's make it thoroughly and comprehensively democratic. or republican. here are the two grand solutions that jefferson over the course of his later life, after having written the declaration of independence and served his country and his state in many capacities, including as president of the united states, retires in 1809, and goes into his most mature period of political thought in which he brings these things together. there are two ways that we can limit the excesses of democracy, democratic ways to secure our rights. the first one i anticipated in talking about his letter to james madison and the earth belongs to the living in 1789.

in this letter, jefferson suggests that the vital principle of democracy is what he described as generational sovereignty. our right to rule ourselves. the idea of aristocracy is based on the supremacy of -- many of you are wondering what this hand is doing. i'll put them both in the sky. these are, as i tell my students now, it's very powerful, because i've been threatening -- i describe myself as a nearly dead white guy in my last days. these are the dead hands of the past. i go but they still have a choke hold over you forever and ever. does that make any sense to you? the dead hands of the past. jefferson particularly worried about this, because, of course, he was deep and dead his entire life. talk about dead hands. we need to do something -- i'm not going to get sermonic again. but we need to do something about that great debt we have,

jefferson's prophetic -- and it was very personal to him, the debts. he died $107,000 in debt, which was an incredible amount of money in those days in 1826. he lived his entire life as if he were, as he put it, a slave to his creditors. that's a very powerful term for a slave-holder to use. we need to overthrow the shackles of aristocracy, of this emerging commercial money aristocracy. we need to guarantee to each rising generation that it will be able to write the laws under which it lives. that is the vital principle of a successful republic. now, he wrote this letter to madison, and madison couldn't believe that jefferson would say something so stupid. it was hard work getting that