there were no ort don'tists to fix teeth and the rest. if you lost a tooth, you lost a tooth. if you lost it at 25, there it was. you read the descriptions of the desserters, for example, and again and again, there is something physically noticeable about them. henry knox lost the two fingers of his left hand, the third and fourth fingers, on a bird-shooting ex pedestrian addition when he was about 22. he kept it wrapped because he felt it was insightly. nathaniel greene walked with a decided limp because of a childhood accident. john trumble, the great american

painter of the day, had the use of only one eye because of a childhood accident. this was very common. but they didn't let that stop them. john trumble became one of the great painters of the time despite the fact that having the use of only one eye greatly atered his depth perception. it is very interesting to see that the earlier versions of his significant, the small paintings are much stronger than the large paintings on display in the rotunda of the clol in large part because of that problem. if knox and greene had volunteered to serve in the army of today, they would have been rejected because they were physically unacceptable. but they didn't let that stand in the way. and in a way, it makes them more vivid somehow. they are more identifiable.

they're like characters in dickens. you'd know them when they walked in the room. host: you mentioned that knox was 25 when he first gotton washington and you also talk about age, 43 for george washington in 1775. but you only mention alexander hamilton on three pages in your book. what didn't you write about in the book and why so little on alexander hamilton? guest: because i'm never writing about what they're going to become later. i'm writing about what they're doing at that point. hamilton and monroe both appear briefly because they were very minor parts of the story at that point. they were very good, young officers, and they're portrayed as that. but they weren't people of real consequence in the way that knox

and greene were. i also write about people like john greenwood, the little boy from boston, and joseph hod continues, the massachusetts shoe maker, who is one of my favorite characters of all. those people played a real part in that time, in that moment, we know, because they wrote about it. you have to remember that all that we know is what we have in diaries and letters. there were no correspondence reporting what a terrific job alexander hamilton just did, nor were there correspondents like we had covering the civil war. all we have the order early books and government records of various kinds and the diaries and letters. so if somebody kept a diary or

wrote a lot of letters, it really pours it out, tells you what it was like, describes the suffering and the hardships. then that person becomes a pro taking nist because that person is -- protagonist because that person is taking us into the time. i try as best i can to be of the moment in what i'm portraying because i think that's intell electricity actually more honest in a way in that these people don't know what's going to happen next any more than we do in our time. they don't know what the outcome is going to be. they don't know that alexander hamilton is going to be secretary treasurer. they're only thinking about can i survive the next hour and they're very often in a situation where they don't know what's happening. confusion reins all around. that's very important to remember if you're trying to get inside that time and understand

the human situation and to feel it. i don't think you could really know anything until you feel it, brian. i think that you've got to care. otherwise you could get all the facts and figures and statistics in the encyclopedia and that's not necessarily the truth. i'm drawn into the time and the experience as it happened to the people who were there. and if i have someone watching over my shoulder, judging me, in my mind, in my subconscious, it isn't the reviewers or the other scholars. it's those people. are they going to read what i'm writing and say, yeah, you got it, that's the way it was?

or are they going to be saying, look, you're way off mark here. that's not what it was like. let me tell you what it was like . if there is a hereafter, i hope they're going to tell me you did all right, boy. you did all right. host: when did you decide that there would be a book "1776," do you remember? guest: while i was writing about john adams. when adams was in philadelphia and they're getting reports of what's happening in new york and when the report comes back that the battle of long island has been a fiasco, that 1,000 americans have been taken prisoner, that more than 300 americans have been killed, that washington has been outflanked and outsmarted and then the escape from brooklyn, when i read all of that which was happening, which adams of course

was not taking part in, and in writing biography you can't stray off to write for five or six or 10 pages about something he has no involvement in, i thought, you know, i'd really like to write about all that was going on besides what was happening at independence hall in philadelphia and how much was happening in philadelphia depended on what this rag tag army under washington, how they were performing, how much chance they had. host: when did you decide to call it "1776"? guest: after it was all written. i never decide on a title until the book is all written. i often don't know what the book is really about until it's all written. people say to me at the beginning, what are you working on? well, i'm working on a book about the revolutionary war and the year 1776. well, what's your theme?

i have no idea what my theme is. i hope by the time i'm finished writing the book, eye -- i'll know what the theme is. i also can look back at the end of the book and say, well, i think this might be the title. host: what is your reaction to the sales? are you surprised at all? guest: oh, it took my breath away. it's been extraordinary. host: what printing is it in? guest: i think it's in the ninth printing now. the first printing was a million copies. when the polisher told me that -- the publisher told me that, i said i hope you know what you're doing. but, you know, the kick, the reward, the pleasure is the work. that's really what matters. host: when did you finish it?

guest: in november of last year, november of 2004. host: you just said you made your decision inside the time you were doing john adams on "1776." did you make your decision on the next book inside of writing that one? guest: no. i'm still thinking about it. host: how big of a tower did you do for this book? guest: 24 cities. host: what is a vigorous 72-year-old man doing going to 24 cities selling a book you didn't have to? guest: i like it. i enjoy it. there were some days i thought i just can't do this. but then the next morning i thought, come on, let's go. i like meeting people. i like people. i like seeing what's happening in the country. and i can tell you i went to many of the same cities four or five years ago when "john adams" was published and to go back to

the cities and see how they're changing and what exciting things are going on, new libraries, new convention centers, cities looking much better than i've ever seen them, i think there is much to be very encouraged about. people very happy in their work and proud of their cities and optimistic. it's very reassuring. i've come back feeling better about the country. i come back feeling better about the time we live in and more confident about the future. host: give us a sense, then, of what kind of a next book do you think you want to do? because if you're nrged that much five years later, just think what it will be five years from now? what kind of a book does the country need? guest: oh, i never think about that. i never think about what the country needs. i think about what i want to do. you have to live with these

subjects day after day. if you aren't enthusiastic about the work -- host: what's your inclination right now? guest: i'm not going to talk about it. host: why? i want to know. guest: well, as of this morning, i have 24 ideas for a book that i'd like to read, books that don't exist that i would dearly love to read, which has been part of the way i've gone about it my whole writing career or life. i've been doing this for 40 years. i just trust to my own -- it's like -- i don't know what it's like. suddenly i know that's it. you can say something this morning in this conversation and i'd say there it is, that's it, that's what i want to do. and i don't push it. i don't just get going for the sake of getting going. i'll give you an example.

you're too good a guy not to give you one example. i would love to read a book about everything that was going on in london during the revolution. wonderful, big subject. the loyalists who had gone to london, hundreds of thousands of americans who were there. the american painters who were all there who are people of considerable consequence, benjamin west, cople yench. trumble goes over. they think he was a spy. well, he might have been. they put him in the tower of london for a while. and there were a lot of spice on both sides, french, british spice. great material. and then, of course, all the politics of the time with people like edmund burke and others who

were on the side of the american point of view, to a point. they still call them "our colonies." and the mill lou of it all. the same could be written about the civil war, too. i would love to read a book about charles wilson peale, the philadelphia painter, who was into everything. you talk about the kind of 18th century enthusiast who was a painter and tinker with mechanic canical devices, an inventor, an arc yoilings, a soldier, a politician. he was everything and he wrote wonderful letters and kept a great diary. he knew everybody. the idea of doing someone who isn't a politician, who isn't a general or a soldier appeals to

me. host: no interest in the present? i mean in your lifetime? guest: no. host: no more harry truman? guest that's not quite the present. i think i'll stay in the 18th century. i really like it there and i'm starting to know everybody and i like the change, i like the literature, i like the art, i like the architecture very much. host: how did you get to know henry knox. guest: through his letters. host: where did you find them? guest: they're in a variety of places. most of them were at the morgan library in new york. they're now at the new york historical society. but the diary of his trek with the guns from ticonderoga, which i've reproduced in the picture

section of the book in its actual size, that is at the massachusetts historical society. host: are you still on the board? guest: i've never been on the board there. but i'm very actively involved. that's one of the most wonderful cleckses in the country. it's three presidential libraries in a way, all the adams papers, all the john adams papers and the john quincy adams papers and a great part of the jefferson papers. host: i wanted to ask you about boards because you pop up, i mean, everybody wants you on their historical boards. how many do you serve on now? guest: at the moment, i'm on no boards. but i'm as active as i can stay working for mount vernon and the library of congress and the massachusetts historical society, the national trust for

historic press evaluation, the new york historical society, monticello, public libraries in general. i do as much as i can to support, help, make known the opportunities presented by public libraries but also the responsibility communities have to spurpt them. i'm an honor rather member for a big drive now for the pittsburgh carnnagey library, which was the first public library i ever went to. i owe so much to libraries. i owe so much to the library of congress that i will do what i can to help the library of congress for as long as i can. host: you've probably given henry knox more pub blissity than anybody, wouldn't you say? guest: i guess that's right. host: but i was told this house

got 14,000 visitors in the last year. that's relatively small. but a lot of libraries, visitors are going down. the new lincoln library is way up. but what advice do you have for a place like this located on route 1 in maine, easy to see, mount pleer, to get people to come here and bring it to life? guest: to encourage everyone who does come here to tell other people that it's a very worthwhile place to stop and that i can't miss it coming up route 1. host: do you think they should do it here, though? once they get people in, entertain them or inform them? guest: i think when people come into these spaces, into these rooms, and know the story -- it's the story that pulls people in. if you drive by a house and you say that's a beautiful house and nothing ever happened there,

it's not too interesting. you could drive by a house that looks like a shack and start telling a story of what happened there and people will absolutely be interested. i think that our afeck shun as a people for -- avenue infection shun as a people for historic landmarks are all kind has increased tenfold in the last 30, 40 years. the whole movement to protect historic buildings has grown in every part of the country. they're not just going in and tearing down old buildings. people really don't like that. we lose something of ourselves. we lose something of our souls every time an historic building or a beautiful building from a period of time is destroyed.

we're vandals. it's just not the right thing to do. host: we don't have a whole lot of time, but i do want to switch subjects. you have talked a lot lately about teachers and you testified in front of congress and you've given several speeches. this is from one of your speeches. "we have to do a far better job of teaching our teachers. we have too many teaches graduating with degrees in education. they go to school of education and graduate knowing something called education but they don't know a subject." we had some teachers at c-span this summer who weren't very happy about that. what do you mean by that? guest: i think a teacher ought to have a good liberal arts education and major in a subjectñ history or spanish or physics or whatever. because a young teacher going to work for the first time in a

classroom who doesn't know history or who doesn't know biology and is required to teach that subject has a big handicap, needless to say. not just because they don't know the subject, but because they have no enthusiasm for the subject. and most of us have been lucky enough to have had teachers in our past experience who were enthusiastic about what they were teaching. it was that enthusiasm, that love of their subject that was infectious and opened the door for us or threw open the window for us. and furthermore, if the teacher doesn't know biology or history or mathematics, then they become much more dependent on textbooks which are often far less than what we would wish. some of them are abysmal. some of them it would seem as if they are designed as a history text, designed to kill any interest a youngster might

have in history. we have to have teachers who love what they are teaching and who use good books. the essential ingredients for education are not fancy buildings and lesson plans. the essentials of education are great books, great teachers, and the midnight oil, hard work. we don't emphasize work enough in teaching. now, i'm talking -- these are all generalizations. there are superb teachers, and i think as i said in that same speech, as i say every opportunity i have, there is no more important person in our society than our teachers. they count more than anybody. they are doing the most important work of anybody in our way of life. i have a son who is a teacher and i'm as proud as can be that he is a teacher. i know how much he has to put up with that is less than what one would want. >> what does he teach? >> he teaches english

literature in high school in massachusetts, and he's a very good teacher. >> one of our teaching fellows this summer -- they sent me a lot of questions for you here. i will ask one of them. this comes from jennifer morle why teaches high school in tampa. what are the rewards for teachers who do have extensive historical knowledge and are excellent in their field? in other words, do they get anything special when they are good? >> well, i think they get the same thing that one ought to get no matter what line of work you're in, the reward of the work itself, and the knowledge that they are influencing hundreds, thousands of young americans in the course of their careers. i don't know what the statistics are on how many lives a teacher will touch in the course of a career over 25, 30 years, but it must number to a sizable crowd. and that's very important.

and the love of learning. to convey the love of learning. that's the most important thing a teacher can do because the education only gets rolling after you leave school, after you leave college or graduate school. that's when you really begin to learn and you begin to read if you have had that instilled in you. >> some teachers are not very happy with the no child left behind. one of the questions that janet lipscomb asks is can any meaningful exam give data for a student's willingness to understand and participate in democracy? >> no. it's simply a measure. it's a measure of how much is known or not known. when a youngster can't tell you who -- when a senior in a university, a good university can't tell you who the commanding american general was at the surrender of cornwalis at yorktown, you know there's a

problem. now, whether knowing that it was george washington will make you a better citizen, that's -- that's immaterial. that's another question. but the fact that a person doesn't know that washington was the commanding american general at the surrender of yorktown indicates that student probably doesn't even know what yorktown was and why yorktown was important. if he or she doesn't know that, clearly she doesn't know much about the history of the revolutionary war. not knowing anything about the revolutionary war is a pretty serious flaw. and it indicates that maybe we're not educating our children as well as we should. there is no question about the historic ignorance among young americans. there is no question about it. it's been shown in countless studies and surveys. anyone who teachers or lectures or spends time on american or university campuses these days as i do knows that from

firsthand experience. >> a recent statistic in "the washington post" is 57% of the children born in the district of columbia are born out of wedlock. you say in one of your speeches that history ought to be started at the dinner table. how can you ever start at the dinner table? >> it depends on how you allocate your time. how much time is that same family spending watching television? the average family spends three to four hours a day. average american family three to four hours a day watching television. don't tell me you can't give up maybe an hour of television to do something of this kind. i think the dinner table conversation -- and i have had many, many people say they agree from their own memories and experience -- a dinner table conversation can be over the lifetime of a child, a lifetime at home more important than school. >> but what if they don't have any history of knowing history, the parent?

>> they know the history of their own lives. they can talk about what their fathers or mothers or grandfathers or grandmothers did, where they came from, what part they played in american life or american history. or they could go to the library and get some books, the public library. look at the public library. there they are in every community open, free, free to the people as it says on the boston public library. all the knowledge, all the information, all the art and literature and ideas of history, of all time are available in the public library to everybody for free. no other society, no other civilization in history ever had any such advantage, and we take it for granted. and people say well, there is not enough money now.

of course there is enough money. do you have any idea what we spend on lawn care or potato chips? of course there is enough money. how a society spends its money, as can be said also for how the individual spends his or her money, is a pretty good index of what matters to them, and our public libraries ought to matter to us. you can get a complete education, college education, a graduate school education by just going to the public library for free. which was part of the idea in the first place, that there should be no lid on people because they can't afford to go to college and universities. so we'll have a public place where they can all come. >> we're about out of time. when do you expect for us to see another david macculloch book? >> i have no idea. how long a back takes is how long it takes. it's like lincoln said about his legs.

somebody said how long are your legs. he said they are long enough to reach the ground. i have no idea. it depends on how large the subject is. >> one last henry knox question. when you look through his life, 56 years of his life, what one thing looms the most important? >> that the man had the capacity for a great idea, imaginative, innovative idea, and the capacity to make it happen. ideas are often pretty easy. it's doing them that can be hard. he did both. he had the idea and he did it. >> thank you, mr. macculloch. >> thank you. >> for a copy on d.v.d. or v.h.s. tape call -- >> for free transcripts or to

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