we pushed him hard at this point to be -- make it look like a tree. i think we pushed him too hard. we want it to be a little more artful. so you can see the strokes in the middle. and then look how transparent it is. so there it is up against the education building. so it's going to be very subtle when it's all done. it's going to be very quiet. it's going to say abilene, but it's not going to hit you over the head with it. and then finally the memorial itself can be very modest, like him. >> maybe you want to tell them

about that figure, too. >> yeah, why don't you talk about that. [ laughter ] >> so you have -- it's a little bit like a -- i work in the theater, and it's a little like used a number of times in various productions. so this gauze or this tapestry, transparent tapestry, will have placed in front of it a figure of eisenhower as this barefoot boy, as a youth. so it's -- i think to me it's probably not something that is the big headline that we know of eisenhower.

but, again, to me it was the one point that it kept coming back to that seemed to be really important. i made a work earlier in my career called the life and times of sigmund freud. and in reading about freud, i read something that when he was 68, when his grandson died, he said that something within him passed away forever. and he said years -- much later in london to anna freud, he said i never overcome the death of this 4-year-old boy. and it was in that year that freud developed cancer. it was this little thing that kept coming back in my mind with freud, that it's not so much discussed in history books but really seemed to be that point

where his balance was in life and times. and so this man who was a giant in many ways was a simple boy. so i think it's a poetic way of looking at eisenhower. >> it's a great image of hope for kids coming there. >> yes. >> i think that it's the american dream, barefoot boy from kansas is a world leader. >> and it will be life-sized, we think. he will be sitting on a wall. we're trying to find images that we found one of him like this. that we kind of like and how to make it. we're figuring out how to make it. so we think we've got the essence of it.

and it's very -- we think it's very powerful. and now we've got to figure out how to talk about him -- >> as a president. >> -- and a soldier, and we're trying not to make it an episodic thing like the roosevelt memorial where you go to one period and then -- we're trying -- >> as frank keeps saying, not to have three memorials, but just this one thing and then we have the reference to him. >> so now that we've got the other pieces and we have vetted the tapestry and the education people seem to be liking us again, they were really -- i mean, i don't blame them. they were kind of threatened. >> so is this your -- is this your first experience working with the federal government? [ laughter ]

>> yeah. >> so what's that been like? >> i loved the first meeting when the lady brought in a little time clock. and it went off in an hour, and she just got up and left. [ laughter ] and we had flown a whole bunch of people in. you know, we've had some help. dan file has helped us. where are you, dan? >> right here. [ applause ] >> and rocco himself, he was eisenhower's chief of staff when eisenhower was president.

at least he has a sense of washington and what's going on. i think mostly we've had good vibes from people, from the senators that we've met with. but the idea seems to resonate. i mean, we're not trying to jam something down people's throats. we're trying to make something that is lasting, that's in essence that represents this man's character. i think we're honing in on it. we're getting there, and that's a lot of pleasure in that. now we're just fitting in the rest of the pieces. we will tell those two stories. we will. we're not going to ignore them. >> but i think to me the strength is that it's -- there's nothing more beautiful than an empty room or an empty space. i would say the best architecture, forgive me, frank,

is no architecture. [ laughter ] >> i knew you. >> it's just space, and i think that that's the beauty of this idea is that it's space. and in our cities and whatever, so much is needed and not another blockbuster building, you know, but just space. and that's in the character of this man. i'm from texas. he was born in texas, and the landscape of texas is in all my work. it's in my head. it's a way of thinking. this landscape. i met a woman who is a violinist a few years ago in taipei.

she is from brooklyn, and i heard her playing in a concert, and she said to me afterwards, she said, you know, the brooklyn bridge is in my mind all the time. i was born by the brooklyn bridge. it's in my head. i said the landscape of texas is in all my work. so somehow this landscape is inherent in this great man. >> so frank, you have described this project as an emotional portrait of dwight eisenhower, using the power of architecture, landscape and visual art to tell this life story and to represent his strength and values. and at the same time, paying attention with the balance between respectful and boring. so talk about the boring piece. [ laughter ] >> well, it's hard to comment on that.

but i think expressing the man is not boring, and if we do it right, it will resonate and be strong. >> resonate is a good word. the history books have recorded him in a certain way, but this is something i think that we can reflect on in multiple ways. >> i think that there are people that think this is too big a space for eisenhower. he wasn't as important as that space. it's why does he have a space that's bigger than somebody else? he doesn't. he's just going to have a little plank with a little boy. this is just an image to contexturalize and modify the location so that it can accept that little modest piece and not get lost in the hubbub of the

city. i think it's going to be very modest. >> you know, let's see if i have this. >> what are you looking for? >> i said, in one of our meetings, if you take a space that's this big and you put it in a space -- >> that's what they thought i was going to do. [ laughter ] but if you put this in that space, this is bigger, because there's more space around it. >> yeah. >> and that's sort of the idea. >> that's the idea. >> so the intent is to use content from carl's library to enhance the experience.

>> carl is a living library. if i go have coffee with him and say, i would like to have a coffee, can you get me this kind of coffee, he said, well, eisenhower used to -- that's been the fun of this, the people involved. just fantastic. >> so this is still very much a work in progress. >> we're getting close. we have budget and technical stuff, and we have the landscape, which joe brown was here. where's joe? there he is. [ applause ] that's eda, landscape. >> and attention to materials

for the fabrication? >> well, right now we're talking about the columns being stone. that seems to be the right thing to do in this location. we're pretty close to our budget, so we're doing well. there's not going to be any -- the maintenance part of this is very carefully thought out. we're doing tests on the tapestry to ensure that it will last at least 200 years, but you can see it's pretty simple. you can just spray it and clean it. i don't think things are going to grow in it. so it's just spraying that and maintaining a garden.

there's no complicated waterfalls, or there may be a little fountain or something but -- to get the trickle, trickle of water, the sound of water, but i'm not sure. the lighting will be interesting, how you light this at night. and it looks different from behind and from forward. and it changes during the day. so it will be very interesting. it will have a different persona. >> i think it's going to be very -- >> i don't know if there's a night picture. there was -- >> beautiful at night. >> yeah, there it is. and you can see to the left, this shows the landscape down at the bottom, a building and the openness. these are just tests of the various pieces.

and we actually made -- tomas made a face of eisenhower's eyes in that material, and it's recognizable. so if we wanted to put figures -- we don't, but if we were, you know -- if we wanted to, if it became an issue, we're able to do it. so we're vetting this thing. >> so the side panels will be trees also? >> yes. the landscape just continues around. you know, you can put eisenhower the general on one side and eisenhower the president. we tried it. i've got pictures of all this. when you do these things, the first thing you do is figure out the ten most obvious things to do, and then you do them and look at them and then reject them.

but it's -- that's the normal process for guys like us. >> does that include -- you talked earlier about other memorials. is there a particular memorial that you think is good? >> lincoln. >> absolutely. lincoln, washington. >> and maya lin. >> oh, beautiful. that's great. >> she was my student, so i'm proud. >> that's right. [ laughter ] >> that's right. >> she was a good one. >> is that the end of the slides? >> i don't know. that's the dure. so you can see where tomas got it. he was very clever to do that. there's the more intense part at the bottom, which is still transparent.

you can still see through it. and this is the conundrum representative, the man as president ran -- >> here's the homecoming speech. >> yeah. >> so it's here. >> can you all read it? >> because no man is really a man who has left out of himself all of the boy. i wanted to speak first of the dreams of a barefoot boy, always in his dreams is the day when he finally comes home to a welcome from his hometown. because today, that dream of 45 years ago has been realized beyond the wildest stretches of my own imagination. i came here to thank you and to say that the proudest thing i can do in that is that -- that i can claim is that i'm from abilene. >> yeah. >> wow. >> there's the little -- there's the boy.

it's hard to get this done, and we're getting help by an artist friend, charlie ray. >> there is a small museum on the aircraft carrier "uss eisenhower," and that photograph is this evening on its way to that museum, because they've asked for some new photographs. >> really? >> that's one of them. >> we're trying to find other photographs just so we have -- i with -- this one is pretty special. >> it's great. >> this is the photograph from the military that we all like. >> oh, good. >> and this is the photograph we like on the right of him, or this one.

this is when he was giving the military industrial complex speech, he looked like that. >> that's right. >> and we could use the medal or the eisenhower jacket. >> mm-hmm. >> so if you made it out of stone, like the elgin marbles, and these are pictures we looked at. okay. >> terrific. so why don't we open it up for questions. there are microphones on either side. and you really need to use a microphone because c-span is recording tonight. >> can you hear me okay? i'll talk loud. can you hear me? >> are the microphones on?

go ahead, sir, you need to turn them on. >> so you may not remember this, but about three or four years ago in "the washington post," there was this incredible photo of robert todd lincoln at the lincoln memorial when it first opened. and i would give serious money to find out what he was thinking. so my question is, what kind of role did the descendants play in your analysis. >> the what? >> the descendants, the and eat grandchildren. >> well, we've met with them. >> we've met with them and -- [ laughter ] >> they've been cordial.ions they're strong. we've listened to them.ink that finished, they'll realize that we've listened to them. right now there may be a little

question about we haven't shown how we're dealing with the president and the military man. so everybody involved is questioning how you're going to do that, and i'm questioning it myself. but we're getting there. >> mr. gehry, previously you've been quite forthright publicly about your design philosophy. if i may quote something you've previously said. you said life is chaotic, dangerous and surprising. buildings should reflect that. likewise, thinking of this center, you said i think of this in terms of controlled chaos. i always relate it to democracy. democracy is pluralism, the collision of ideas. our cities are built on a collision of thought. look out there. there's a bridge, a huge hunk in the distance. if it wasn't for democracy, it would all look like one thing.

given your stated predilection for statements of chaos and danger in architecture, is this project a continuation of that or a departure? and did you explain your design philosophy while applying to the commission? [ laughter ] >> you know, it's like you pick -- i've got a nose hair here if you want to -- you guys, i don't remember the context of that talk. i probably was talking to a bunch of students who were not -- who were afraid, and i usually try to say that the chaos of the world around us is a fact, and recently it's gotten to be more of a fact.

and how do you build within that, that if i'm building a city in the 19th century or in the 18th century, i have a format. the cities of europe have six and seven-story buildings lining the streets. they're -- they create a quite beautiful city. in the democratic world, which i don't want to give uel me, is everybody has their right to build what they want as long as they live within the zoning codes and stuff. ter enforcement. if it's a big hunk? >> what? >> does it matter that there's stylistic harmony within washington, d.c.? >> yeah, i know. i'm not talking about washington. >> this is where the memorial is going to be built.

>> do you think this is chaotic? >> well, i happen to think that the giant screen represents winter, permanent winter, trees without leaves and it represents death and anilism in the way i see your black t-shirt, much beloved by downtown hipsters an it's a total rejection and honestly everything that eisenhower himself stood for. [ laughter and applause ] >> hi. mr. gehry, thanks for coming to speak with us today. [ laughter ] i just want -- a certain analogy popped in my head as we were watching this and watching your explanation. i don't know if you're familiar with the story "the emperor has no clothes," but they're weaving

together a suit of invisible cl boy says the emperor has no clothes, and i just think -- you said it's not necessarily post-modern what you're doing, but it just seems to strike me as very post-modern. i don't know if you're familiar with c.s. lewis and the space trilogy, but in that age, they have metal trees. they no longer have real trees, metal birds, and a place where there is a huge amount of space, and can you use real trees and you do use real trees, why do you think of making metal trees and doing something that seems so ridiculous? it seems to me like the emperor has no clothes, and how is this a memorial reflecting his great deeds and great works? i think as you said, the lincoln memorial, the washington monument, things that are so striking and that honor these great men and this just seems to

me as -- >> well, can i answer? >> sure. >> do you have more? >> that's it. >> lincoln memorial is in a greek temple. what's that got to do with lincoln? >> it's -- i think my mike -- okay, it's on. but it's the deeper symbolism as i said in the hearts of our nation. these principles which are classical last forever. >> okay, okay. so in our nation, in our history, in world history, the tapestries have been used to tell stories throughout the world. raphael made them. >> i find you saying that this is a tapestry a little bit ridiculous. i mean, it's just metal. i don't call that a tapestry. but i guess it just depends on definitions. >> okay. >> all right. thank you. >> phew. >> my question is a little different.

i'm looking at the columns here, which appear to be rectangular in the photo. i know out in central kansas, in the abilene area, farther west, there are a lot of limestone fence posts cut rectangular. were these intended to be reminiscent of those limestone fence posts? >> no. i didn't think of it that way. i was looking at the grain elevator. >> good evening. well, i'm from the midwest, and i'm the chairman of the board of an organization called american forests. so i couldn't be more delighted with the design and i thank you. [ applause ] i'm just curious. i read in the newspaper about a possible e-memorial, and i know that there's been talk about needing some fund-raising from the general public.

is that e-memorial a way to thank the donors, or what's that all about? could you elaborate. >> we are working on an e-memorial, yes. >> what will that be like? >> don't know yet. >> we'll stay tuned. >> yes, i was wondering to what extent do you expect or actually intend for the viewer at the memorial to come away with a good sense of the historical context within which eisenhower was an actor? will there -- i don't know whether it will be like writing and some inscriptions about the historical aspect of these times, and/or do you expect there to be like the usual brochures available there where people will be able to get a better sense of him in history? >> well, i think in some aspects, yes, we'll do that,

but, you know, we have that in history books. we have that in a chip. and i think as artists, and frank's an artist, myself, we're not there to do what history books do. it's not a lesson in history. i see it as something more poetic. so content related to the history of the man, yes, there will be references to it. that is not our main objective. that information is readily available on your computer.

>> hi. do you plan to have a specific type as far as landscape goes, specific types of trees with meaning behind them, or is it any old tree that you'll plant there? >> well, when we were in abilene we saw these sickycamores with silver bark, and they were common all around his house. and then we found out they're also common in washington here. so that's where we're -- what we're showing now. we're not -- i don't know if all the trees will be that. >> thank you. >> the garden is going to be a park, a pretty nice garden, a place where there's shade and the tapestry will be very transparent.