he was himself a recruiter of black troops by then, august '63. he went to protest against unequal pay for black soldiers, the lack of any commissions for black soldiers, the treatment of black soldiers, et cetera, et cetera. he had been very open in public in criticizing lincoln and the administration for this. they had an extraordinary meeting. douglas came away awed is the only word you can use by lincoln. by how lincoln treated him so much like an equal. in fact, there's a speech douglass gives after this several times. there's this homely way he put it. he said, he made me feel big there. like a teenager, meeting a great man or something. it was actually two great men meeting one another. lincoln, according to douglass said yeah, i know about you. i've heard and read a lot about you. but lincoln also defended

himself. it's interesting, lincoln defended how difficult these decisions and choices had been. they met in the second time in august of 1864. '64 during the overland campaign the incredible stalemate in virginia, et cetera, et cetera it, lincoln fears he's not going to be re-elected. that's a very real fear in mid and late summer. he's facing mcclellan, of course, in the fall election. he invites frederick douglass representative of black america to come to the white house and among other things, asked douglass to become the leader after effort in cooperation with the union army and the war department to funnel as many slaves as possible out of the border states, out of the upper south behind union lines and into the north if possible. a grandiose plan that god knows how this would ever work but to

get as many slaves out of the upper south as possible before election day in november because if he loses the election, he fears that mcclellan and the democrats will turn around the policy of emancipation and the war will be lost. douglas was stunned. i don't know another way to put it. here was abraham lincoln. he had attacked lincoln for the past two and a half years, three years. here was lincoln looking eye to eye with him and said will you funnel as many slaves out of the south as possible, be a new sort of john brown for me? douglass said sure. thank you very much. he went back up north. he sent telegrams, letters all across the north. he was trying to put together a team of people and he did for a week or two that would sort of be the agents of this system. and then came the fall of

atlanta. and that whole plan was completely ignored. and sheridan's successes notice shenandoah valley had something to do with it. what happened on the battlefield didn't really happen. that plan was never put in place but the idea that lincoln was asking him to do that was extraordinary. they then met finally at lincoln's second inaugural and probably running out of time, right? >> let's do one more. >> they meet at the second inaugural in the white house at the reception after the speech. which is a very moving moment. maybe we can talk afterward. yes, sir. >> would you confirm that his first wife refused to learn to read and write? >> yes, that's true. anna murray douglass remained a nonreader and a nonwriter all of her life. it's a complex story. we don't have real good answers for.

we don't know if there was some kind of dyslexia or problem. what we do know is that he hired tutors. his daughter rosetta, their oldest child also worked very hard to help her mother learn to read and write. it never succeeded. she and douglass had a deep abiding relationship and love but a very difficult marriage. let's put it that way. you don't want me to go into all the details of that. but her illiteracy, of course, was a serious problem, issue both in their relationship and in how the family communicated. there are lots of letters where douglass writes to his daughter

or to his son lewis as they reach adulthood or before, and he will say tell mother this tell mother that, tell mother this, tell mother that. she was a great homemaker. bush administration every great reformer from great britain and the united states, name an abolitionist that came through his house at some point and had tea, anna served tea and left the room. while the great man spoke to men, women, reformers, abolitionists all. often not in her presence. however, when she died in 182, he came apart. he boarded up her bedroom at their house at cedar hill, wouldn't allow anyone in. i don't know exactly what that means either, but i'm writing a new biography where i'm going to have to have something to say about that.

i don't know what it is yet. it's a classic problem of a man who became a world class intellectual and indeed, his spouse was by and large not part of that intellectual world. it is the 19th century, however, and not the 21st century. and her children, the four who survived, they had another child died in infancy, or a child, her children were deeply loyal to her. and although deeply loyal to their father, too. and it had a good deal to do with why they resented the second marriage. [ applause ] >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. >> sure. >> david, if you can go down here. bob krick said, by the way, what

they're doing now is taking questions from all across the country on the c-span audience. and bob said during his session on the phone with a c-span audience, they were getting questions quite literally from all across the country. i think it's a great way to reach a wonderful audience with a great series of historians. so there we've got it. we've got two of the five, stonewall jackson and frederick douglass. let's go have lunch. i would remind you that your lunches are in order of alphabet. so look for your name and i hope you know how to spell it. we will reconvene here at exactly 12:40 to get restarted with jim mcpherson.

on american history tv on c-span3, we're bringing you all-day coverage from the library of virginia in richmond, with a look at the person of the year, 1862. the premise, if "time" magazine had been around in 1862, who would they have selected as their

person of the year. so far we've heard from two historians, robert krick and david blight. you heard david choosing frederick douglass as his choice for person of the year 1862 and robert krick who was the chief historian at fredericksburg for 30 years chose thomas stonewall jackson. we're going to open our phone lines here and take your calls. so you can get a chance to talk to david blight momentarily. the numbers are if you are on the eastern seaboard, if you're eastern and central time zones, 202-585-3885. mountain and pacific, 202-585-3886. make sure you mute your television. if you want to tweet us, our hash tag is poty 1862. and we will have one tweet from kashia who agrees with professor light that she says i think douglass should be the person of the year 1862. also at facebook.com/c-span, we are posting the question there,

as well. if you want to take a look at facebook and post your comments, you're welcome to do that. a couple here stephen grill says in a sense, lincoln was person of the year every year he was president. i suppose next to abe in 162, you would have to choose robert e. lee. david blight joins us from the library in virginia, and he's going to take your phone calls. david blight, welcome to american history tv. >> thank you very much. glad to be here. >> frederick douglass was born a slave but in the eastern shore of maryland. how did he so at such a young age become so such an integral part of the abolition movement? >> well, he didn't become part of the abolition movement until he escaped at age 20, of course, but he was already well conditioned can, one might say with a powerful and abiding story. he escaped from slavery at age 20. disguised as a sailor with a few dollars in his pocket and a copy

of one book. and he escaped by three ferryboats and two train rides to new york city. and then on to new bedford, massachusetts. in new bedford, he worked as i caulker, and a day laborer until about 1839, 1840. he escaped in 1838 but he began to speak at a black church. the african methodist episcopal zion church of new bedford and it was there that he was discovered as an orator in his fledgling youth of mere 21, 22 years old. he was discovered by william lloyd garrison's massachusetts's anti-slavery society. they invited him out to a big rally on nantucket island in august of 1841. he's only three years out of slavery. and there he gave his first

public abolitionist speech. he was so talented, so effective at telling his own personal story as a slave that the garrisonians hired him, took him on the road and within a couple of years, he was probably the most sought after and famous abolitionist speaker on the entire northern circuit. >> we have lots of folks waiting on the line to talk to you, professor blight. it's hearer from david in pennington, new jersey. welcome. >> hello, professor. thank you so much. i absolutely have to agree with you on the importance of frederick douglass. i've always considered that douglass was one of the great -- one of the members of a triumvirate of people who helped to define american reconstruction, and i would be very anxious to learn, i always considered grant to be the person in the military sphere, lincoln in the political sphere, and douglass in the moral sphere. can you comment on how douglas may have interacted with these

two people? we know that president grant who is probably underrated was a great proponent as the president to try to elevate the freed slaves. >> well, that's a very effective way of putting it. lincoln in the political sphere, grants is the military leader, and douglass as the moral voice. douglass' role in what you describe as this long trajectory of the transformation of the american republic and the transformation of american freedom comes because the only weapon he had was the word, was language. he was never allowed to run for elective office. actually, he could have run for elective office in the south had he gone south during reconstruction for a short window of time. but elective office was never douglass's option and the military was never really his option although there were those

during the war who criticized him at times and suggested that he should go join the union army after 1863. instead, he recruited his own sons. by then of course, he was 45 and 46 years old. so it's as a moral voice that douglass has a place. he had been giving the country a narrative and argument, infinite supply of metaphors through which to try to imagine the recreation of an american republic rooted in the destruction of slavery and the transformation of the constitution. one of the great facts or even ironies of frederick douglass' life, born 1818, dies 195, if you look at the trajectory of his life, he's in his mid-40s during the civil war. he lives to see the triumph to

use your word, the triumph of the cause he had spent his adult life arguing for but probably never believing he would see that triumph. but he then also lives another 30 years. he didn't die till he was 77. he lives another 30 years to see the virtual betrayal of that triumphant cause. so there's a trajectory to douglass' life, call it moral, call it temporal, call it whatever you want, that is fascinating. his relationships, of course, with lincoln and grant were very complex. he met lincoln three times as i just said earlier here in the lecture. he meets grant, of course, not until the reconstruction years. he ends up meeting grant, in fact, at the white house. he campaigned vociferously and vehemently for grant in 1868 and again in 1872. and grant finally appointed him as part of the commission to haiti. it was a complicated appointment that douglas never felt very

good about the way he was treated. but he saw grant as the leader of the party that had in effect freed his people. and to his dying day, he was a strong defender of grant not only as the war hero, but even as the president who had presided at least over some of the triumphs of reconstruction. >> let's go to the west coast and hear from seattle next. matthew on the line for david blight. welcome. >> thank you. i was just wondering, what do you think is the likelihood that douglass is going to win considering the light complexion of the crowd there? i'll take my answer off air. >> well, that's a very frank and good question. i'll give you a frank answer. i don't think i have a prayer. but i gave it my best shot as it were. and who knows? right? it depends on whether

people -- i think in the end here, however people wish to vote on such a thing, it's probably going to be not about the complexion of their skin as much as it's going to be whether they believe the most pivotal actions by leaders in 1862 were on the battlefield or in this realm, this moral realm, this political ideological realm in which frederick douglass operated. douglass operated once again by his voice and by the pen, not as a soldier. and i'm up against here -- well, we don't know who's coming yet but i think we're getting some more soldiers. i'm sure we're getting some soldier, some very famous ones. that's probably where the rub is going to be. >> our caller from seattle was a good reminder this won't be decided till the end of the day when the all five historians are heard from and the folks in the audience there in richmond get a chance to vote. a couple more calls for david blight. let's hear from al, new york city, welcome.

>> yes, hello, professor blight. i enjoy always the c-span forums especially on civil war history. and i wanted to ask you regarding the recruitment of black troops in which douglass participated in. did he feel it should have been done earlier, more aggressively? >> oh, yes. >> or did like many people have to wait for the political realm to shift more in lincoln's favor? >> well, of course, both parts of your question are true. there's no question, douglass thought there should have been black troops in the union army from june of 1861. you can read his editorials and public speeches that argue that vehemently. he demands in the first summer of the war that those black militias that are marching on town greens across the north be allowed into the union army. there were black men desiring

and offering to enlist right after fort sumter and douglass was advocating that. and he was advocating it even more strongly in 1862. once it finally came, of course, douglas was not only grateful, he joined the cause by becoming one of the principal recruiters of black soldiers. he was one of the principal recruiters of approximately 100 members of the famous 54th massachusetts regiment, the black regiment organized by the state of massachusetts. his first two recruits were by the way, his two sons, his 19-year-old son charles and his 20-year-old son lewis. that's something to contemplate a father recruiting his own sons into the army. >> david blight, we'll let you go here in a minute. i know there's lunch waiting. one more call and question for you from chicago. this is richard. go ahead with your quick comment, go ahead. >> david, what i -- how you

doing? what i like to know. >> well, thanks. >> if frederick had come to now, what would he think about barack obama as america's first black president and also, do you feel that he would feel that thing change but things never change but stay the same in terms of the way some of the republicans are treating america's first black president? >> well, there are two parts to your question. first, he'd have no doubt -- of course, we don't know. but he would have no doubt been as deeply moved at any of us by the election of an african-american to the presidency. it's possible douglass, he could speed through time and be here today, would have been maybe less surprised than the rest of us because he would not have lived through the terrible racial history from the turn of the 20th century to the present.

he would not have lived through jim crow. he would not have had that as part of his memory. to your second question, i think one thing you can be -- you can rest assured about, if frederick douglass were alive today, he could no longer be a republican. i mean that party of lincoln and that party of grant that he so vehemently defended, promoted, stumped for, voted for worked for all of his life the last 30 years of his life is no longer the same party at all. the modern contemporary republican party has become essentially the american white conservative party. let's face it. and douglass would have no home there. now, times change. history changes. parties move on, people move on. new political persuasions, no issues, no coalitions grow and he would understand that. but i can tell you that if we can guess at one thing, he would resent current modern day

republicans calling themselves the party of lincoln. >> david blight from the yale university study of slavery resistance and abolition and one of the five historians participating in the person of the year 1862 at the library of virginia. good luck with the results this afternoon and thanks for taking the time to speak with our viewers. >> thank you very much. you are watching a museum of confederacy foreup, who "time" magazine would have chosen as person of the year in 1862 in the midst of the civil war 150 years ago. our civil war coverage continues this weekend when we focus on the battle of shilo in southwestern tennessee, april 6, 7, 1862. the civil war, on american history tv, this saturday at 6:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. eastern and sunday at 11:00 a.m. >> this saturday at noon, on

cspan 2 book tv join our call unprogram with chris kyle as he talks about his life from professional rodeo rider to becoming the most lethal sniper in u.s. military history. at 10:00 p.m. on afterwards. >> if you think of yourself as a family and you think of yourself as a team. she said when i get a raise at work, he is proud of me. it's like we got a raise. our family got a raise. she redefined providing to include what her husband does and had a lot of respect. >> the richer sex author, on the changing role of women as bread winners out family and how that impacts their lives. also this weekend, america the beautiful. director of pediatric neu neurosurgery at johns hopkins, declares the decline of empires past with america and shares his thought on what should be done to avoid a similar fate. sunday, 3. 30.

a.m. book tv every weekend. on cspan 2. >> all week in primetime we are showing american history tv programming seen every weekend on cspan 3. next we return to the museum of the confederacy for a forum on who "time" magazine would have selected as person of the year in 1862 in the midst of the civil war. over the next four hours, a panel of historians will continue to nominate candidates. with the audience making the fina