sure they have more ammo. and that they are organized and -- staying -- staying focused. >> i'm wondering -- something that people -- i don't know if they know or not. what kind of conversations are going on? are you all not talking at all except do this, do this, do this? are you going -- oh, my god, no -- >> no. >> -- i can't believe we are in this. >> no, we are beyond that point. we are focused in -- listening for and leadership which we had with captain nadal. thank god someone is telling us what the hell is going on here. what was i involved with here? what the hell is going on? i don't know what's going on. other than we were under attack and somebody is trying to kill me and shot my buddies, you know. what are we up against? where are we? what are we doing? you know. should we go here? right? left? what are we supposed to look for? other than the bad guy. anyhow. i felt very good, very happy in the creek bed. plus we had the shelter.

i had the shelter for the first time. then in that creek bed. it is like -- i would say four feet deep, five feet at best. and four, four and a half feet deep. maybe -- anywhere from four feet to six feet wide at different points. and this river from -- came from the mountain, snaked down. zigzagged. wasn't like a straight creek. zigzagged with curves and things. guys throwing hand grenades at the enemy and our guys were in

there. throwing hand grenades back and forth to each other. one side to the other, one end to the other. they were down in it. i felt good about that because i thought man, this is nice. i have cover here and some friends, you know, new game. i feel good. this was going to be no better than what i saw. >> right. >> so -- >> we are down here. and -- i don't know. five minutes or one minute. next thing i know he is to my right and i'm -- guys to my left. and the rest of the guys down the creek bed. i don't know how many there were right then. 10, 20 guys, 30 guys. so -- he says he's yelling, all right. get ready. get ready, guys. let's go. six. machine gun. i'm still by myself, by the way. >> yeah. >> semiconductor or ammo bearer or anything. i have very little ammo, too. there is a story i want to

interject here. so he's wrestling and said get yourself ready. let's go. we will make an assault. he tells the guys, he says six bayonets. six bayonets. these guys are putting bayonets to the ones that don't already have them on -- wham what am i going do? you know. i had a bayonet on me, digging holes and stuff. opening tin cans and stuff. can't put a bayonet on a machine gun but i want to at that time. that's how insecure i felt. god, bayonets. what's this about? i knew we were close. he said we're going to make an assault. i said i'm happy where i'm at, you know. the safest i felt all day. let's go. up over the top. i'm four, five yards, no more, to left. we are going across the creek bed into the jungle. stuff is coming in.

machine guns firing. gun ships above us are firing in on us. things are around us, friendly fire and everything else. fourth of july. we get out about 20 yards. guys are dropping. you know. and north vietnamese are dropping out of trees and stuff. they are firing down here. this guy is dropping out of trees. everybody is firing at their own targets, you know. guys are firing at the same target. you know, whatever you see. whatever you feel comfortable with. i have this machine gun. job of the machine gunner is to spray the area and keep their heads down so we can advance. i see i have like 30 rounds of ammo left on my belt. that's it. i went through everything else. this is what i have on this first assault. i thought hell, you know, would pulls of a trigger and this is gone. so -- i -- on the initial -- i had already fired, you know, 50 rounds. i'm left with 30 rounds. i'm standing like it was -- with the captain about 20 yards out, i'm guessing. he looks over at me and screams

and yells at me. god damn it, fire that machine gun, lay down fire! i thought -- he doesn't know i only have a couple of rounds of 20, 30 rounds of ammo here. he can't see it. i leave a little burst off to please him. i want to use the machine gun as a rifle in a round about sense. i want to see my target and try to pick them off one or two rounds. it doesn't work that way because you can't see them. they are bopping up and down and running around and hiding. they are at your feet and up in the trees. i didn't have enough ammo to do what he wanted. at that instant it was -- full-scale thing of fire, enemy fire, and guys beside telling me to get killed. tony on the radio. has his m-16 down. on the radio. things are all mixed up.

on the radio. and he is calling in supporters and talking to colonel moore. whatever he is doing. radio man is behind. just then, just as i look over here, radio operator gets shot. gets hit. goes back on his back. just like, you know, ton of rocks. right back. you know, i'm looking. wow. these other guys drop. and the only way tony knows, he is on the phone. when the guy fell, took the phone out of his hand. tony turns around and looks for and it he's not there. down there at his feet. that was that. tony said let's go. everybody grabbed a guy and drug them back down into the creek bed. them guys are laying there dead, dying. that's that deal. probably five minutes later, ten minutes, i don't know what it is, he says all right, line up of. we are going to make another assault. somebody gives me a box of ammo. i am good to go now. i feel fairly good. we make another assault to go out there. everybody is doing their thing. we are dropping again and stuff.

we get 20 yards out there. pull back. that type of thing. so i don't know how many assaults they make before i got there. and then the third one we tried to go left into the thick towards the mountain. i didn't know at the time but i think that was to three to find savage, ernie savage. i remember the trip very well. we didn't go any -- fare any better there either. go back 20, 30 yards and have to come back. that heavy. they were out there. fixed positions now. so -- it was -- it was -- bizarre. to say the least. i tell you. it was very hectic. you know. >> what are you feeling? what are these emotions happening? are you just reacting, reacting, following orders? are you -- >> yes, yes. one good thing about us, we -- like i stated earlier, we were close-knit group. we didn't hesitate when the lieutenant said follow me. although when he passed us he looked white as a ghost. looked like the color drained out of him. he must have gotten orders from captain nadal. they pass them down. must have gotten orders, they said there is enemy.

>> expand the perimeter. >> we followed him. what the hell. we followed him for two months prior to that. we followed him to ft. benning. that's what we are taught to do. tony says let's go. captain nadal. we went. we didn't hesitate. one guy hesitated. that's all. >> he hesitated. >> he pulled -- i could jump ahead with the story. i don't mind sharing this with you. it is important to me. through the who whole two and a half, three days there in the battle, i assumed our ammo bearer was killed, shot and killed. or wounded. medevaced back to a safer place. we when we get back to the base camp two, three days later, get refitted and resupplied, we went back and asking -- we are

standing out there for count in the morning, and you see all these spaces, you know, platoon went from 30 guys down to 20, you know, company went from this down to this. and -- all these small numbers, squads. where is so-and-so? well, he was shot. he was killed. yeah, i saw him get killed. russell, yeah, he got -- he died. i told people russell got killed. only came back. that's where i left him. i didn't know they got him to japan and saved his life and fixed him up. i told guys russell died. he got killed. i saw him. you know. we are sharing stories. i said where's john? our ammo bearer. he's down there in his pup tent.

pup tents there. which was home to us. and -- i said what do you mean he is down there? is he hurt? no. combat shock. he left you guys. what do you mean he left us? he says -- when the -- when it hit the fan, first started, i guess he saw as much as we did, too, shocked. he just didn't handle it the way we did. he took off and got on a chopper coming in. and then leave and got on a chopper and took him out. there's been witnesses on the chopper pilots that took him out said there was this guy that they took back and he was babbling. he was -- god bless him. i understand the shock of that combat and what we saw and everything else. he didn't handle it very well. anyhow, they called the combat shock. the mood i was in after that thing and -- my buddies and everybody else, really pissed off about a lot of things. really hurting. i said -- i'm going down and shoot the son of a bitch.

i didn't shoot him. i got my .45 out. i went down there and flipped the flat back. and i -- >> .45 in your hand. >> yeah, i think i was going shoot him. that was my intention. i said -- he left us without ammo. russell got hit. you know, i was out of ammo several times. you know. i wasn't a happy camper. >> go back and get it yourself. >> i wasn't a happy camper. anyhow, he was supposed to be -- could have been overrun because of him. anyhow, i go down there. put the flap open. i'm going to ream him out. if he gives me lip, i might shoot him. i look at him. he is sitting in this pup tent on top of his helmet, head in his hands. he looked up at me. like -- the most pitiful look i have ever seen on a man's face. i wouldn't know how to describe it. looked at me and is like -- remorse, the shame. i don't know what to call it.

it was extremely pitiful look. i cursed him out. you son of a bitch. i left. that was the last we saw him. they gave him an article 15 -- medical discharge is what they gave him. there was something i wanted to say with russell, about him. i had it when i was telling the story. something fairly important up there. >> that happened in the action? >> yeah, with russell. it didn't have to do with john. that's a shame. it will come to me afterwards. >> the guy jumped up and you said -- >> i had it. i'm just trying to get this one out. it was a fairly important thing i really wanted to get off my

chest. >> was it something when he was on the gun? >> it was before i left. it was up there. it wasn't the airplane. it was something else. it wasn't the gun jamming. >> wasps? >> that was at a creek bed. that was another story. that was crazy, too, boy. i talk about unexpected things. >> let me ask you this and we need to wrap it up because we have somebody else waiting. you're there, you're there that night, you're there the next day. what are you physically like? tell me what's going on. >> exhausted. no sleep. we didn't sleep. we only got like two, three hours sleep the night before. one man on for three hours, one off. actually by the time you get to sleep and you're up at 5:00 in the morning, you only get two, three hours sleep. so we went that whole day with all that action without any sleep and then the next day nobody was sleeping. i know i didn't. we were totally exhausted. and it wears down on you and it starts to get like a dream

world. it really does. the 16th, it was like shot. we were standing there waiting to get helicoptered out, artillery shells were coming in close to us. we weren't even moving. we were numb. >> on the 16th? >> yeah. they were just blowing up over there. you stand up there, who gives a damn, you know? you're just like no fear. just worn out. who cares. >> do you remember moore that day from the 16th? >> i just remember seeing him, yeah. and be honest with you, what i remember of colonel moore when i first saw him after that battle was i saw a very -- i don't want to say this the wrong way -- i saw a very worn out man. i mean, he looked beat. but then we did, too.

see, i didn't have a mirror to look at myself. i didn't know what i looked like. we were all worn out. i looked at my buddies there, just leaning on the rifles, just nobody's talking, nobody's saying anything, you know, what they saw and what they experienced. i guess it's all going through your mind. general moore was no different. he looked exactly like us. but i was surprised. you know, i figured, well, he'd be all chipper and clean. he wasn't. he was as dirty as we were, filthy and just worn out. you talk about a guy not sleeping. i'm sure he didn't get any sleep because he had to coordinate for the next day. me, all i could do was just stay put and hope we didn't get attacked again, get overrun. >> what about the broken arrow call? what do you remember about that? this is the morning of the 15th. >> i didn't know about it but i remember the day. all hell broke loose there. and i was over at the creek area during that -- those events and

that was -- that was another macabre scene. it's like this is big. this is serious. and actually into the third day, i was resigned to the fact that we might be there all week. and i thought how? how can we? but i didn't know thank god the thing was over, for us anyhow. god bless the guys of the second and seventh, what they ran into. >> 40th anniversary, 40 years after this, bill, how has it been for you, here at the reunion? >> it's always good. it's always good to come down here. i've been coming down here since they initiated the law in 1982/'83. i've been coming every year and sometimes twice a year. and it's great to see the guys, it great to be able to talk to them, share. you know, camaraderie down here,

everybody that's here went through the same thing you did. and that's the calming, the calming effect. it helps. but it's hard, too, because we share stories and we start talking about our friends and so those memories, they drift back here to the painful times. >> what about russ? he survived. >> russ is one of the strongest men i know, god bless him. he lives 110 miles from my house. he has a dairy farm. he he has look 50 black and white cows. he gets up in the morning, goes to bed at midnight, he milks the cow, he has the big vats that old all the gallons and gallons of milk. so he's a dairy farmer. he's successful at it. he's successful at it, very hard work. tough. not a big guy, 5'8", 5'10", just

a tough off-the-farm kid. you know, they come from inner cities and out in the plains and everything else. russell was a farmer, a tough farm boy. you know, worked on the farm with his dad as a kid and everything. strong as an ox. >> tell me about the book and the movie. what's that done for you? how has that affected you? >> it's a nice accolade to us. it's a nice credit to our battle and the efforts that everybody gave forth. i'm glad it wasn't swept under the rug which i'm sure the politicians would have love to have swept -- they did in a roundabout way. they told the american people it was a victory and it was but at what cost. but anyhow, the movie was wonderful. they did a great job. there's a lot of truth to it and more truth than hollywood. i'm just happy it out there in a

book for generations to read, future generations to read. and we pray to god somebody read it and change history, the way we do things. find a better way than war. find a better way than war. i mean, read that book and read other books on horrible battles of our time and the things that are going on today and say, you know, we can't just keep giving these 58,226 kids and these 2,040 kids to this date or 45 and just constantly give, give, give. you got find some other means. >> yeah. >> it would be nice but i don't know if it's ever going to happen, there's got to be sacrifices but i'm glad the book and everything is out there for people to read. i hope the younger generations read and learn because it a good book. it's a good story that was told. >> all right, bill. well, thank you so much for

sitting and doing this. >> thanks for your time. i thank you for your time. thank you very much. every weekend hear eyewitness accounts about american history and the people and events that shape our nation. oral histories saturday at 8:00 a.m. eastern, sunday afternoon at 3:00 and again monday mornings at 4:00 eastern, only on american history tv on c-span3. coming up tonight on c-span3, american history tv examines the war in vietnam. next u.s. naval war college professor donald stoker on the forth vietnamese war strategy. then a u.s. army archival film on vietnam. after that oral histories from the vietnam center and archive

featuring bill forest and bill beck. this weekend marks the anniversary of the bloodiest battle to be fought during the civil war. up to that point, the battle of shiloh with almost 24,000 casualties. and sunday night at 7:00, the angel of the battlefield and founder of the red cross, clara barton on operated the missing soldiers office until 1868. join us as we discover the third floor office as it's prepared for >> each week american history tv sits in on a lecture with one of the college professors. this week a look at north

vietnamese strategy during the vietnam war with donald stoker, professor at the naval war college in monterey, california. the class is part of a course called "strategy and war," which examines the relationship between political goals and the use of military force. this is about 50 minutes. >> a couple of pieces of background first to think about this to set up for this. always think about here, what is this war about? for the north vietnamese? what are their objectives? now, the vietnamese -- north vietnamese communist objectives are pretty clear. it's not as clear from reading as it should be. they want to take all of

southeast asia. french indochina. in particular, the conquest of south vietnam. that's what they want. they tell us the first thing we need to do is figure out the nature of the war. again, for our purposes for this, when you start your study of this case study, you start investigating this case study, think about that. what is the nature of this war? one of my colleagues back in newport, he talks about this being a war within a war within a war. and it's interesting perspective to think of because you have a multilayered series of events and activities obviously that are going on here. and different ways of fighting it. for the communists in many ways this is a revolutionary war. they want to expand communism in southeast asia. again, south vietnam is only the next stop on the road to that. and a regular warfare, guerrilla warfare is the how, but not all of it. of course, you have a regional war that develops here as well between north vietnam and the united states. and this, of course, spills over and allows cambodia and so on and south vietnam, the fighting in north vietnam as well particularly on the air side of it. a lot of this is conventional. again, it's not all. that's not the whole thing.

it's only part of the picture. and you also have to keep in mind that the cold war context of what is going on here, because we don't -- when we think about vietnam, we don't automatically think about this being a coalitional war. we sometimes even overlook the south vietnamese role in it. some of the literature, for example. you almost think there's no south vietnamese army there when you're reading the book that there's pretty substantial south vietnamese forces. you've got on the communist side in particular, the coalitional aspect is very important for their success. you know, ho chi minh says that himself. so you've got support from communist china and from the soviet union as well. so keep that in mind here when we look at this war because you have these various different aspects of it. and you've got to deal with the various different aspects, these various different wars in some respects in a different matter. now, also, what is important to point out here before we go into this lecture, you can see from the time line that it covers an enormous, you know, amount of time. 30 years. obviously, we're going to leave a couple things out and just hit the high points.

what is important to think about is, the primary means, the primary elements of strategy that the north vietnamese used to prosecute the war against us, when the united states comes into the war, these have already been developed before our entry into the war in a significant fashion. the tenets are there. they modify them to address us. that's one of the reasons we're going to spend a lot of time on the development of their ideas and the developments or the methods for prosecuting this war before our presence. is really a significant factor. or a dramatic factor in it. now, of course, start first with a little bit of background. a little bit of theoretical background and historical background. we always give you some theory. and one of the important

addition to the theory we've been doing this they were is the addition of what becomes modern guerrilla warfare from mao tse-tung, chinese communist leader, famous for uniting china. now, mao from fighting the japanese and then fighting the nationalists in the chinese civil war, he derived his own particular theory of guerrilla struggle. he's very good at blending and taking and modifying their ideas. but he's also very good at developing his own in the process. he famously writes a small book called "on guerrilla war." in 1938 he writes "on protracted war." this was basically his scheme or his outline for how the chinese communists could take control of china, how to defeat the nationalists and also defeat the japanese as well. and his model of these three stages here that we'll talk about here in just a moment, it becomes the model for a lot of other insurgencies, particularly communist insurgencies in other parts of the world. and it also becomes for good or ill, it becomes the way we often evaluate insurgencies to see how far they've developed. again, can you see that's good or not, you can argue that, but it becomes that. and it becomes a tool for that. so what was mao thinking about?

what does he mean? first of all, he had what we would call phase one, the strategic defensive. sometimes it's called the organization or consolidation phase. and here during this phase, the communists being weak, they would act primarily on the defensive. they would build up the party organization. they would build the basic structures. they needed later on. they would try to adopt popular measures to win over parts of the people, win over the peasants in particular, the farmers by giving them land. they would use terror against their opponents. and they would do this to try to undermine the authority of governments and create an atmosphere of fear and instability which they could step up to fill this gap. you recruit and try to win over the people. as you get stronger, you move to phase two, sometimes called the stalemate phase or expansion phase, equilibrium phase. at this point once the communists thought themselves strong enough to start fighting the state with rough equality, they would begin to do so.

political action would still be used, but guerrilla warfare, guerrilla fighting that was attritional in nature would start to take on an increasingly larger role. the guerrillas would build more bases, increase their recruiting. and as they got stronger, they would begin to convert the guerrilla forces into a regular army. also at the same time, they would start building their own governmental structures. kind of a shadow government to kind of supplant themselves. supplant the role of the formal government. so you wage guerrilla warfare, expand the base areas and begin building a regular army. then when you become strong enough, you move to phase three. the strategic offensive phase or decision of the destruction of the enemy phase. now, in this phase the guerrillas decide they're strong enough to fight the government they're trying to overthrow toe to toe. your guerrilla forces are being transferred -- transformed into a conventional army. you'll still carry on guerrilla warfare, you know, but if it's necessary and if you need to, it's certainly part of it, and

also ideally, this preparation in mao's mind, if you do everything right, you might get lucky and you might be able to even phase three might not be even necessary. but it's probably going to be. now, this is his model again something that's important. he's not putting this model forward for every guerrilla insurgency. when he writes his "on protracted war," he is specifically addressing the situation of china. but this is something that's taken up by other people, by the vietnamese communists. it becomes a model in some respects or as a foundational element for what they tried to do as well. now, some historical background. a little bit before we get into the vietnamese strategy. there's a little bit of historical background about french indochina. the french in 1858, they left the vietnamese emperor in place to control internal affairs. in 1919, the paris peace