and i thought, all right, let's get it on, let's get the business done with here. you know, if i turn out like russ, so be it, but let's go. but for real. so there i am. i'll spot some movement directly in front of me, which is directly 40 or 50 yards. then off to the left a nice 100 field of fire. that's when we went into the jungle off the mountain. so i was comfortable with straight ahead and off to the left but not in the jungle because they come up real close there. you see stuff moving, just firing in there. but i spotted two, three, four movement right in front. so i'm laying down fire and everything else. bullets smacking, hitting. i still don't know how i didn't get hit. you know, because i don't know if they're bolts, smacking. still don't now i didn't get hit. i don't know if they are coming from the front or the side or what. bump. you know. dirt kicks up. trying to keep your head down and keep firing.

so -- i'm firing. all of a sudden my gun stops. abruptly. dead stopped. firing a gun for a while, you know. he and i. smoke coming off the gun. we are firing the hell out of it, this machine gun. i don't know. we weren't trained for this stuff. what the hell is this? we are under attack. my gun ain't working. .45 isn't going to go good at all. i don't think i was trained for this. you do what you have to do. i opened up the cover. and -- leaned over and looked down in the gun. i could see a brass round jammed in there. so -- i thought only thing you can do is picked the gun up. laying down. picked the gun up. slammed it down on the ground and picked it back up. looked in there. and it was gone. knocked it out. put the ammo back in, put the plate down and the cover. cockpit. pressed it. pressed the trigger.

it worked. that's what the assistant gunner is for. assistant gunner lays to your left. he feeds you ammo. you put it in the machine gun. keeps the ammo off the ground. anything comes -- as you are firing, goes to the hand and clean stuff off. mine was laying in the ground. it was picking up all the grass dirt and rocks and stones, all the debris. i was taking that into the mechanism. jammed my gun. well, that scene went like in slow motion. i mean, everything went deaf, you know, don't hear nothing. you know, all the explosions and all of a sudden you are in your own world. like a macbre dream. everything stops.

then until i started firing, it is all real life again. and -- you know, that incident probably -- i bet that didn't take me five seconds to do what i did there. to knock it -- round out and start firing again. but at the time there was like -- it was an hour. it seemed like an hour. they stopped coming, you know, laying down and firing nice and low. and -- because you know, like -- there was just grass and we are -- some trees. you know, some smaller trees. was like off to the right real thick jungle. that's the last time i saw it. they were high on the ground, too. trying to crawl up. they stopped. but that was an incident there that scared the hell out of me, too. when the gun stopped. >> i can imagine. >> i wasn't trained for it, you know. you just act on instinct. then -- machine gun crew over there, i heard riviera rodriguez got shot. his guts were on the ground, he is screaming over here. he's the same hard hit we are all in. and -- i'm screaming for him to

get russell. he is screaming rodriguez is hit. you know. i settled in there for -- that's what i mean. no clue for time. you know. i saw him when the sky raider got shot down there which was very important to me. because -- when i was there, this sky raider was flying around up there. may have been a couple, i don't know. this one was flying around up there. i was watching from time to time, you know. i'm looking. i get up as high as i could without exposing myself too much. and -- i look around and kept looking and looking. he plying in and make these dives. beautiful thing to watch. so he -- comes flying down real straight down. and he's firing .50 caliber machine guns. i'm assuming that -- that's where i saw it coming here. coming over to the left a little bit. stopping most of right here.

so i'm assuming -- well, he has better vantage point than me from up there. so pay particular attention for anything in this area. you know. i knew -- from my buddies there, this whole field of fire. didn't have a good thing here. anyhow, so -- i wanted his -- he's dropping his bombs, too. rockets. whatever the hell he had on his planes. he was doing everything. and -- he makes a big dive on time and watching. bam. just burst into flames. so -- to this day i don't know if he got a machine gun from the mountains or from the ground or he was flying so low, dropping his bombs so low for real that it could have been from one of

his own bombs, fragments coming up. hit the fuselage. and he burst into flames. and he -- of course, still coming. flames are way back here. leaving a big trail smoking flames. he dipped down like i said very low. he dipped down and he was just above the treetop level. i'm telling you, he was than -- i bet he wasn't a football field high, 300 feet. football field high off the ground. just above the trees. you know, trees are like 30 feet or something like that. he was just above it. came right down behind us from the mountain and went down there. he ditched down into the -- he was killed. i found out it was captain mcclellan. find out years later who the pilot was. i tried to tell people this. i told general moore this gentleman was alive when he got hit. because i -- when i -- here is another thing. i'm laying on the ground. i'm screaming at this pilot. at the top of my lungs. get out! get out! you know. just -- just a reaction. i still remember it. i'm looking up. you can't believe this. what's going on before your

eyes. he is coming down. i'm looking. he is up there in the cockpit. i can see this guy looking. looking down. you know, at the ground like -- he didn't particularly see me on the ground but a nice place for him to come in on a belly landing if he could. he didn't have that choice. he goes -- he was alive. a lot of people surmised -- i am an eyewitness and i will stick to my guns. i heard people over the years that said he was killed instantly. no, that's not true. he was alive. yes. i watched him move. he died when he hit the jungle or was captured by the north vietnamese. i don't think they ever found his body. they found the plane. that was an incident that happened when i was up there also. frightening, shocking scenes, you know out of hollywood, you know. i watched a lot of world war ii films and stuff.

that was always like -- since i didn't participate in world war ii or korea, that was like a movie to a kid, too. kamikaze planes. to see this. but to see it live right in front of your eyes, i mean, man. that never leaves you. >> watched the movie before vietnam growing up? >> kid, yes. black and whites. yes. all those great movies and stuff. >> yeah. >> to this day i'm -- i'm a historian in the sense that i love documentaries. you know. i like -- i like watching anything real. i won't watch a fiction movie. you know. i like the documentaries, history channel, stuff like that. but -- yeah. but when it happens in front of your face, you take a snapshot of it in your brain. it is with you for life. you never forget it. yeah. >> you make your way over to the creek bed. >> yeah. >> yes.

someone came by and said -- officer came over, guys came to the left. i was happy to see that. at this time now when i'm up there -- >> yeah. i didn't know at the time either. at the time all i had seen guys killed and wounded and everything, i actually thought we were the last guys alive. me and -- buddies over in the jungle there on the other machine gun. i hear all this noise and firing and everything else. all i'm see sing dead guys, couple of medics and stuff. i figured we were taking real ass whipping and we are going down. captain comes by and passing out helmets. stay put. you are with so and so. i was happy with that. finally we had somebody there, thank god. friendship up here. anyhow, then someone came over to me and says join your company down there in the creek bed, a company. hell, i thought they wiped out, killed.

well, when i got down in the creek bed, i saw captain nadal. i saw several of my other buddies. and -- i was very, very happy to see that. and -- >> what did they say to you? >> well, no, they are all busy, too. they have been doing their thing, same -- same as i was. we are all preoccupied. loading up their guns and making sure they have more ammo. and that they are organized and -- staying -- staying focused. >> i'm wondering -- something that people -- i don't know if they know or not. what kind of conversations are going on? are you all not talking at all except do this, do this, do this? are you going -- oh, my god, no -- >> no. >> -- i can't believe we are in this. >> no, we are beyond that point. we are focused in -- listening for and leadership which we had

with captain nadal. thank god someone is telling us what the hell is going on here. what was i involved with here? what the hell is going on? i don't know what's going on. other than we were under attack and somebody is trying to kill me and shot my buddies, you know. what are we up against? where are we? what are we doing? you know. should we go here? right? left? what are we supposed to look for? other than the bad guy. anyhow. i felt very good, very happy in the creek bed. plus we had the shelter. i had the shelter for the first time. then in that creek bed. it is like -- i would say four feet deep, five feet at best.

and four, four and a half feet deep. maybe -- anywhere from four feet to six feet wide at different points. and this river from -- came from the mountain, snaked down. zigzagged. wasn't like a straight creek. zigzagged with curves and things. guys throwing hand grenades at the enemy and our guys were in there. throwing hand grenades back and forth to each other. one side to the other, one end to the other. they were down in it. i felt good about that because i thought man, this is nice. i have cover here and some friends, you know, new game. i feel good. this was going to be no better than what i saw. >> right. >> so -- >> we are down here. and -- i don't know. five minutes or one minute. next thing i know he is to my

right and i'm -- guys to my left. and the rest of the guys down the creek bed. i don't know how many there were right then. 10, 20 guys, 30 guys. so -- he says he's yelling, all right. get ready. get ready, guys. let's go. six. machine gun. i'm still by myself, by the way. >> yeah. >> semiconductor or ammo bearer or anything. i have very little ammo, too. there is a story i want to interject here. so he's wrestling and said get yourself ready. let's go. we will make an assault. he tells the guys, he says six bayonets. six bayonets. these guys are putting bayonets to the ones that don't already have them on -- wham what am i going do? you know. i had a bayonet on me, digging holes and stuff. opening tin cans and stuff.

can't put a bayonet on a machine gun but i want to at that time. that's how insecure i felt. god, bayonets. what's this about? i knew we were close. he said we're going to make an assault. i said i'm happy where i'm at, you know. the safest i felt all day. let's go. up over the top. i'm four, five yards, no more, to left. we are going across the creek bed into the jungle. stuff is coming in. machine guns firing. gun ships above us are firing in on us. things are around us, friendly fire and everything else. fourth of july. we get out about 20 yards. guys are dropping. you know. and north vietnamese are dropping out of trees and stuff. they are firing down here. this guy is dropping out of trees. everybody is firing at their own targets, you know. guys are firing at the same target. you know, whatever you see. whatever you feel comfortable with.

i have this machine gun. job of the machine gunner is to spray the area and keep their heads down so we can advance. i see i have like 30 rounds of ammo left on my belt. that's it. i went through everything else. this is what i have on this first assault. i thought hell, you know, would pulls of a trigger and this is gone. so -- i -- on the initial -- i had already fired, you know, 50 rounds. i'm left with 30 rounds. i'm standing like it was -- with the captain about 20 yards out, i'm guessing. he looks over at me and screams and yells at me. god damn it, fire that machine gun, lay down fire! i thought -- he doesn't know i only have a couple of rounds of 20, 30 rounds of ammo here. he can't see it. i leave a little burst off to please him. i want to use the machine gun as a rifle in a round about sense. i want to see my target and try

to pick them off one or two rounds. it doesn't work that way because you can't see them. they are bopping up and down and running around and hiding. they are at your feet and up in the trees. i didn't have enough ammo to do what he wanted. at that instant it was -- full-scale thing of fire, enemy fire, and guys beside telling me to get killed. tony on the radio. has his m-16 down. on the radio. things are all mixed up. on the radio. and he is calling in supporters and talking to colonel moore. whatever he is doing. radio man is behind. just then, just as i look over here, radio operator gets shot. gets hit. goes back on his back. just like, you know, ton of rocks. right back. you know, i'm looking. wow. these other guys drop. and the only way tony knows, he

is on the phone. when the guy fell, took the phone out of his hand. tony turns around and looks for and it he's not there. down there at his feet. that was that. tony said let's go. everybody grabbed a guy and drug them back down into the creek bed. them guys are laying there dead, dying. that's that deal. probably five minutes later, ten minutes, i don't know what it is, he says all right, line up of. we are going to make another assault. somebody gives me a box of ammo. i am good to go now. i feel fairly good. we make another assault to go out there. everybody is doing their thing. we are dropping again and stuff. we get 20 yards out there. pull back. that type of thing. so i don't know how many assaults they make before i got there. and then the third one we tried to go left into the thick towards the mountain. i didn't know at the time but i think that was to three to find savage, ernie savage. i remember the trip very well.

we didn't go any -- fare any better there either. go back 20, 30 yards and have to come back. that heavy. they were out there. fixed positions now. so -- it was -- it was -- bizarre. to say the least. i tell you. it was very hectic. you know. >> what are you feeling? what are these emotions happening? are you just reacting, reacting, following orders? are you -- >> yes, yes. one good thing about us, we -- like i stated earlier, we were close-knit group. we didn't hesitate when the lieutenant said follow me. although when he passed us he looked white as a ghost. looked like the color drained out of him. he must have gotten orders from captain nadal. they pass them down. must have gotten orders, they said there is enemy. >> expand the perimeter. >> we followed him. what the hell. we followed him for two months prior to that. we followed him to ft. benning. that's what we are taught to do. tony says let's go.

captain nadal. we went. we didn't hesitate. one guy hesitated. that's all. >> he hesitated. >> he pulled -- i could jump ahead with the story. i don't mind sharing this with you. it is important to me. through the who whole two and a half, three days there in the battle, i assumed our ammo bearer was killed, shot and killed. or wounded. medevaced back to a safer place. we when we get back to the base camp two, three days later, get refitted and resupplied, we went back and asking -- we are standing out there for count in the morning, and you see all these spaces, you know, platoon went from 30 guys down to 20, you know, company went from this down to this. and -- all these small numbers, squads. where is so-and-so? well, he was shot. he was killed. yeah, i saw him get killed. russell, yeah, he got -- he died. i told people russell got killed. only came back. that's where i left him. i didn't know they got him to japan and saved his life and fixed him up.

i told guys russell died. he got killed. i saw him. you know. we are sharing stories. i said where's john? our ammo bearer. he's down there in his pup tent. pup tents there. which was home to us. and -- i said what do you mean he is down there? is he hurt? no. combat shock. he left you guys. what do you mean he left us? he says -- when the -- when it hit the fan, first started, i guess he saw as much as we did, too, shocked. he just didn't handle it the way we did. he took off and got on a chopper coming in. and then leave and got on a chopper and took him out. there's been witnesses on the chopper pilots that took him out said there was this guy that they took back and he was

babbling. he was -- god bless him. i understand the shock of that combat and what we saw and everything else. he didn't handle it very well. anyhow, they called the combat shock. the mood i was in after that thing and -- my buddies and everybody else, really pissed off about a lot of things. really hurting. i said -- i'm going down and shoot the son of a bitch. i didn't shoot him. i got my .45 out. i went down there and flipped the flat back. and i -- >> .45 in your hand. >> yeah, i think i was going shoot him. that was my intention. i said -- he left us without ammo. russell got hit. you know, i was out of ammo several times. you know. i wasn't a happy camper. >> go back and get it yourself. >> i wasn't a happy camper.

anyhow, he was supposed to be -- could have been overrun because of him. anyhow, i go down there. put the flap open. i'm going to ream him out. if he gives me lip, i might shoot him. i look at him. he is sitting in this pup tent on top of his helmet, head in his hands. he looked up at me. like -- the most pitiful look i have ever seen on a man's face. i wouldn't know how to describe it. looked at me and is like -- remorse, the shame. i don't know what to call it. it was extremely pitiful look. i cursed him out. you son of a bitch. i left. that was the last we saw him. they gave him an article 15 -- medical discharge is what they gave him. there was something i wanted to say with russell, about him.

i had it when i was telling the story. something fairly important up there. >> that happened in the action? >> yeah, with russell. it didn't have to do with john. that's a shame. it will come to me afterwards. >> the guy jumped up and you said -- >> i had it. i'm just trying to get this one out. it was a fairly important thing i really wanted to get off my chest. >> was it something when he was on the gun? >> it was before i left. it was up there. it wasn't the airplane. it was something else. it wasn't the gun jamming. >> wasps? >> that was at a creek bed. that was another story. that was crazy, too, boy. i talk about unexpected things. >> let me ask you this and we need to wrap it up because we have somebody else waiting. you're there, you're there that

night, you're there the next day. what are you physically like? tell me what's going on. >> exhausted. no sleep. we didn't sleep. we only got like two, three hours sleep the night before. one man on for three hours, one off. actually by the time you get to sleep and you're up at 5:00 in the morning, you only get two, three hours sleep. so we went that whole day with all that action without any sleep and then the next day nobody was sleeping. i know i didn't. we were totally exhausted. and it wears down on you and it starts to get like a dream world. it really does. the 16th, it was like shot. we were standing there waiting to get helicoptered out, artillery shells were coming in close to us. we weren't even moving. we were numb. >> on the 16th? >> yeah. they were just blowing up over there. you stand up there, who gives a damn, you know?

you're just like no fear. just worn out. who cares. >> do you remember moore that day from the 16th? >> i just remember seeing him, yeah. and be honest with you, what i remember of colonel moore when i first saw him after that battle was i saw a very -- i don't want to say this the wrong way -- i saw a very worn out man. i mean, he looked beat. but then we did, too. see, i didn't have a mirror to look at myself. i didn't know what i looked like. we were all worn out. i looked at my buddies there, just leaning on the rifles, just nobody's talking, nobody's saying anything, you know, what they saw and what they experienced. i guess it's all going through your mind. general moore was no different. he looked exactly like us. but i was surprised. you know, i figured, well, he'd

be all chipper and clean. he wasn't. he was as dirty as we were, filthy and just worn out. you talk about a guy not sleeping. i'm sure he didn't get any sleep because he had to coordinate for the next day. me, all i could do was just stay put and hope we didn't get attacked again, get overrun. >> what about the broken arrow call? what do you remember about that? this is the morning of the 15th. >> i didn't know about it but i remember the day. all hell broke loose there. and i was over at the creek area during that -- those events and that was -- that was another macabre scene. it's like this is big. this is serious. and actually into the third day, i was resigned to the fact that we might be there all week. and i thought how? how can we?

but i didn't know thank god the thing was over, for us anyhow. god bless the guys of the second and seventh, what they ran into. >> 40th anniversary, 40 years after this, bill, how has it been for you, here at the reunion? >> it's always good. it's always good to come down here. i've been coming down here since they initiated the law in 1982/'83. i've been coming every year and sometimes twice a year. and it's great to see the guys, it great to be able to talk to them, share. you know, camaraderie down here, everybody that's here went through the same thing you did. and that's the calming, the calming effect. it helps. but it's hard, too, because we share stories and we start talking about our friends and so those memories, they drift back here to the painful times. >> what about russ? he survived. >> russ is one of the strongest men i know, god bless him.

he lives 110 miles from my house. he has a dairy farm. he he has look 50 black and white cows. he gets up in the morning, goes to bed at midnight, he milks the cow, he has the big vats that old all the gallons and gallons of milk. so he's a dairy farmer. he's successful at it. he's successful at it, very hard work. tough. not a big guy, 5'8", 5'10", just a tough off-the-farm kid. you know, they come from inner cities and out in the plains and everything else. russell was a farmer, a tough farm boy. you know, worked on the farm with his dad as a kid and everything. strong as an ox. >> tell me about the book and the movie. what's that done for you? how has that affected you? >> it's a nice accolade to us. it's a nice credit to our battle

and the efforts that everybody gave forth. i'm glad it wasn't swept under the rug which i'm sure the politicians would have love to have swept -- they did in a roundabout way. they told the american people it was a victory and it was but at what cost. but anyhow, the movie was wonderful. they did a great job. there's a lot of truth to it and more truth than hollywood. i'm just happy it out there in a book for generations to read, future generations to read. and we pray to god somebody read it and change history, the way we do things. find a better way than war. find a better way than war. i mean, read that book and read other books on horrible battles of our time and the things that are going on today and