and then we had an ammo bearer to carry extra ammunition. we rotated guns. you were carrying around 100 pounds with your backpacks and handgrenades and ammo. it was his day to have the gun. we landed, got off the helicopters, and we actually, where we were standing he we faced along from chupong mountain and had no idea there was a dry creek bed in the jungle. we were standing there, kind of looking around. it was a beautiful sunday afternoon. we figured we'd find nothing and do this again and again. lieutenant taft walked which. he got orders obviously from his radio man.

he walked right by, said okay, boys, let's go, follow me. we turned around and followed him into the creek bed, that area, which is thick jungle there. our landing zone is fairly flat. we aukd off that flat area into the thick jungle. and i don't think it went ten steps and all hell broke loose. the firing, the machine guns, the bombs, the grenades. real scary, real hectic. lieutenant taft gets shot and killed. the guy in front of me, jerry kirsch, gets machine gunned across his stomach. he's no more than two, three yards in front of me. the guys to the left and right of me, one got shot, one got wounded. jerry rolls over on his back, screaming for his mother top of his lungs. i see he's holding his stomach screaming. it freaks you out, this instant thing that's happening here.

so russell adams broke off to the left. i didn't see my ammo bearer. he was behind me. so i wanted to stay close to russell. i ran after him. we were actually running parallel to the creek bed now, going straight at the mountain, chupong mountain. and then it just kept escalating, the battle. but that was just the start of it right there. >> right. >> instantly i saw at least two guys killed and maybe three guys wounded. all in a matter of five seconds. so that scares the hell out of you. i'm running. now my juices are flowing. i spot adams, and i catch up to him. and russell's firing a machine gun. we weren't even there at that point. we're going parallel to the creek bed. and he just keeps going.

from the original setting where we landed he moved 50, 75 yards up toward the mountain. and he came to a resting place i guess he felt comfortable with. or maybe we couldn't go any further actually. because we were under fire the entire time. people were shooting at us and bullets hitting the ground and cracking over your head. so he settles down there and he's firing a machine gun and i'm beside him. and i'm looking for my ammo bearer and he's gone, so i figure he got wounded or killed, which wasn't the case, actually. and then i found out three days later what happened to him. so it was us. we reduced to a two-man team. machine gun team. now we're settled in. and russell's doing the firing. and i'm spotting. looking for anything that moves. an enemy and stuff. and i'm saying over there, straight ahead, and russell's doing his thing. he's doing a good job. >> how loud is that? what's happening? the noise of this battle. >> it was deafening.

the noise, it just erupted. it was awful our guys and all of their guys, and throwing everything at us, rockets and rpgs and grenades, like i said. and the helicopter's above it. i don't know if we had gunships but later on we had gunships. now we're firing rockets and they're exploding amongst us. it's real havoc. trees are falling down and breaking and leaves and dirt and smoke and fire. it was very deafening. >> does that surprise you? >> yeah. you're not trained for anything like that. i wasn't trained to see that the very first five seconds. nobody could train you for what you're going to see. so it scares the hell out of you. but you move. you can't stand still. you're going to die. you do everything you think you can do. you jum. and you dodge, you roll, you crawl, you do what you have to do. but we ended "up" there where we -- 75 yards up.

>> it's a long way from the rest of the company. you're on bob edwards' right. but did you think, wow, we're really far out? or was it more just getting there and -- >> no. it just all happened like some things happen in slow motion. some things happen real quick, you don't know how you go from point a to point b. and it was very exhausting and soaking wet. not just right then but later in the battle from running around and doing things. i was totally exhausted. it takes a real drain on you. so we ended up there. that's it. >> when i asked -- i want you to describe what happens right after this. once you guys get down in this action. when i asked general moore to the end of this interview, what do you think of when you think of the valley and your x-ray,

what comes to your mind's eye now? and he took about 30, 45 seconds silence. and he said bill beck. and i said why? he said because he kept the gap filled. he saved the whole situation right then, when it was so critical. he kept me alive, our headquarters, the cp, where it could stay stable and not be -- that gap was huge. and he credited so much to you and russell. so -- >> he's a very kind man with his words. at the time we didn't know where the cp was. i didn't know where the rest of our men were. i didn't know where captain nadal was. i didn't know where the rest of my buddies were. all i know is last time i saw them they were heading into the jungle. and like i said, i didn't know the creek bed was there at the time. i found that out a little later.

and we ended up there because of russell. that's where he went. and i stayed with russell. so that happened by fate or blame it on russell. russell adams. but he got me up there. and when we were there, it became a fight for your survival. russell got shot. >> how soon after you guys got down -- >> there are some things happened up there. russell was doing his thing. i left russell for more ammunition because we didn't have an ammo bearer. so i tell russell he's running low on ammunition. i think i only had one box with me. maybe a bandolier. our ammo box was supposed to have 400 rounds. and we never got those 400 rounds. we got low on ammo. i tell russell, there's like a little lull, a little break. i say i'm going to look for john, our ammo bearer. so i run back to the rear, where we originally started from.

and i eventually find two boxes of ammo laying on the ground. well, john got shot and killed and they medevaced him out or something. i donate kn i don't know what's going on. i get the ammo and i'm on my way back up. and and up the creek bed next to the tree turned out to be lieutenant ray toboda. he was a lieutenant of ours. i didn't know him real well at the time. but all i saw is the lieutenant's bar and part of his name. he was severely wounded in his hand and his leg. so i patched up his hand and his leg. i took time to do that. he had pictures of his wife and children laying out around him. he got them out of his thing. he told me years later he thought he was going to die. he had his .45 out in his hand. i asked him what that was about. i thought he was going to save it to shoot the enemy. he said he was going to shoot himself when the north vietnamese came in to get him. so i took his .45 from him.

i had two .45s. and i had mine and i had his. i patched his hand and his leg up. >> how did you patch with? >> well, i used his first aid pack and i used mine. patched his leg up best i could. i patched his hand up. he must have been in terrible pain. as i was wrapping it, i wrapped it real soft. he said every time i tried to tie it a little bit he'd wince in pain. you know. but his leg was like equally bad. i patched him up. my back was to the creek bed, actually. he was sitting against the tree on the ground. i did that. i took the ammo, heading back to russell adams. somebody threw a hand grenade. the north vietnamese threw a hand grenade. it rolled to the ground. it went off. i was going to jump on the ground and try to get away from him. but it went off just as i bent down. but it was a concussion grenade. thank god.

if it's a fragment grenade. if i'd been wounded or killed. a big blast. so that scared the hell out of me. i thought what the hell? i looked to the right. it came from the creek bed area. so i spot these two north vietnamese against this little mound there. they were actually down in a creek bed, come up on a flat area, there's a little mound with bamboo coming out of it and everything else. there's two of them on this side. there's an american g.i. on the other side. the mound's only i'd say three, four feet high. maybe six feet diameter. so they're on one side, the g.i.'s on the other side. i don't know if they could see each other or if they saw each other prior to this, what the hell's going on. but that's how close they came. and i'm screaming and yelling. i stopped and i screamed and yelled. they're not very far away. >> what were you saying? >> i was screaming, north vietnamese, viet cong, everything i could say, screaming and trying to point. and nobody could hear me. the noise was very loud. and he didn't look, and i don't

think the north vietnamese even seen me because it could have been another one threw the grenade at me. i don't know where that grenade came from. >> can you thinking it's these two guys? >> pardon? >> are you thinking it's these two guys or -- >> well, just the two guys i saw. i figured the place is polluted with them. they're everywhere. down in the creek bed. up in trees. i pulled my .45, and i took good aim and, you know, emptied the thing and they both slumped down. so i felt comfortable with that. i figure he's still in but at least they're taken care of. went back up to russell adams. that's when i come back to russell. >> you're still carrying your ammo boxes? >> yeah. i picked the ammo boxes and i take them up. so this all happened, the run from russell initially back to first aid and then back up i bet you was within like five to ten minutes. >> right. >> so it took me like a minute to wrap him up, toboda. and a minute -- but i'm running

this distance, 75 and 75, whatever it was. and i'm exhausted. dodging these bullets and grenades. extremely emotional. i'm laying on the ground. the ground's cracking under me. the dirt's flying up. and bullets cracking by your head and everything. so you have to jump and dodge, try to weave, end up not making an easy target for them. so i'm trying to stay alive. i'm laying down, like totally exhausted. i can't move anymore. eventually got up off my ass to get russell. so i finally catch up to russell, come up, get more ammo, another belt of ammo and the gun. and off to his left and our rear, just less than ten yards is this g.i. laying on his back with his arm up in the air with a canteen. and he's like trying to drain the canteen. so i see that from like the vantage point on the ground, i see just this arm. i look up and i see this g.i. i tell russell i'm going to give

him first aid. he's firing at the enemy, russell is. and we're being fired at the whole time. >> the machine gunners were the prime target. >> well, i guess so. which i found out later. yes, they were. the radio operators, the machine gunners, and officers. >> yes. >> anybody that was giving orders, like follow me, lieutenant taft, pick them off right away, radio operators. and i guess we were on the list also. not that the rifle man wasn't on the list either. we were all targets. i run over. this poor guy's laying there. a radio's laying beside him. an m-16's laying on the ground. he's laying there, looking up at the skies. tall thin kid. about my height and weight and everything. but i didn't know the guy. and i didn't see a name tag or anything else. and i look, and he's got a hole in his chest. dead center. dead center. so i assumed, you know, just,

not being a medic or anything, i assumed this is right through his heart. but he's still alive. and you could see, it was like -- he's like in shock. and i ripped his shirt open, and i rolled him over. i said you're going to be okay. lying like a son of a bitch. i said you're going to be okay. i guess they taught us that in first aid school, i don't know. tell the guy he's going to be all right. give him some moral support. i said you're going to be okay. expecting to see half his back blown out. it's the same little hole in the back. so that's how close we were, the high velocity. zipped right through him. but still it killed him. but he was still alive. i patched him up with his first aid pack, patched him up the best i could. i knew it was going to be hopeless. but the poor kid, he's laying there and that sun baking. and i called for a medic there and this black medic came up. and i knew the guy's face, but i

just don't know his name. but he came pretty quickly. which i was really pleased. i thought it's good somebody heard me. i'm screaming at the top of my lungs. i'm yelling medic half a dozen times. but he comes. and when i leave him to go back to russell, it's only ten yards away. i go back to russell, i think it was -- when i got close to russell where i could see him, i see he was shot. >> where? >> in the head. you know. and he's laying there. and i get up to russell. i said russell. jesus. you know, he's in bad shape. he got shot right through the helmet. it creased his head. his head's wide open. and all this blood, mess, and everything else. and he's laying there. and he's looking up in the sky. and his mouth's open. he's not saying anything. so i lie to him. i said, you're going to be okay, russell. i've got to get the gun.

the gun's laying on the side. when he got shot, everything went to hell. and we're under attack. the bullets are still hitting. cracking. so he's laying right there. and so i upright the gun, take aim out there. where we were firing last before i left him. and dpsh something i want to tell you here. i don't want to lose my thought. anyway, i start firing again. and fire and firing and firing. screamed for a medic in between. scream for a medic, medic. lo and behold, here comes another medic. some blond-haired kid. i didn't get his name. only partial of it. i told general moore, it's like nall, n-a-l-l. which is probably part of his name. i did years of research. couldn't find the name. blond-haired kid, slight build. he came up, took care of that.

we drug him back. i don't remember if i helped load him up on this kid or what. so he took him out. i'm on the gun. we're still under attack. >> are you seeing the enemy coming at you? >> yep. this particular -- here's a story. let me think if -- i was going to say something about that right there. i forgot that one thought already. >> when you took the gun over and you're calling for the medic? >> yeah. there was something there, i was going to say with a medic -- it's just -- >> did he say something to you? did you communicate or -- >> no. this second medic, we prayed -- we had like a minute to pray. russell's laying there. he's a mess. so he's there and we're looking at this. russell's dead. he's going to die. it's a horrible thing to see. so somehow this guy, we were talking about god and stuff.

we started crying, you know. i mean, the fear. >> in the middle of the chaos. >> oh, yeah. the fear just jumped on you. and the scaredest i've ever been in my life, you know. because you knew you were going to die. and we're praying to god. to each other. out loud. and crying. i remember crying. i'm not ashamed to say. you know, tears. >> do you remember what you're saying? >> i was making false promises and stuff. if you let me out of this, i'll do this. but anyhow, i'm not proud of that. but i was scared enough to seek him out. and but anyhow, they get rid of him and stuff. so now i spot three or four of them dead center. i was getting fire from the right, which is out in the jungle only like 20 to 30 yards over. it was real bad. real nasty there. i knew somebody was directly to the right about 20, 30 yards in the creek bed, my other buddies from the machine gun -- another machine gun crew. and that was it.

and this was all mine out here. and the rest of the guys are in the rear. which -- and in the jungle. which i didn't see for as long as i was up, an hour or whatever it was. but anyhow, i got everything straight. and i'm trying to get my bearing. and what i want to interject is the fear left, though, as fast as it came. all this fear came down on me i was crying and everything else. then i went back to business, it was all gone. it was like the nicest calm. like that you want to experience. it was like -- it went from like slow motion and stuff to like serenity or something. i don't know how to put it into words. but it's a feeling. >> how did that happen? do you know? >> i don't know. it's like -- i guess you say to yourself, once you bet that out of your system real quick, you say to yourself, well, this is the way it's going to be, i'm going to die. die like a man or something. i don't know what comes over

you. it's just -- i made acceptance with the situation. at that particular time. all of a sudden i wasn't scared anymore. it was like -- maybe it turned to anger. you know, when i think about it. maybe my fear turned to real anger. and i thought, all right, let's get it on, let's get the business done with here. you know, if i turn out like russ, so be it, but let's go. but for real. so there i am. i'll spot some movement directly in front of me, which is directly 40 or 50 yards. then off to the left a nice 100 field of fire. that's when we went into the jungle off the mountain. so i was comfortable with straight ahead and off to the left but not in the jungle because they come up real close there. you see stuff moving, just firing in there. but i spotted two, three, four movement right in front. so i'm laying down fire and everything else. bullets smacking, hitting. i still don't know how i didn't get hit. you know, because i don't know

if they're bolts, smacking. still don't now i didn't get hit. i don't know if they are coming from the front or the side or what. bump. you know. dirt kicks up. trying to keep your head down and keep firing. so -- i'm firing. all of a sudden my gun stops. abruptly. dead stopped. firing a gun for a while, you know. he and i. smoke coming off the gun. we are firing the hell out of it, this machine gun. i don't know. we weren't trained for this stuff. what the hell is this? we are under attack. my gun ain't working. .45 isn't going to go good at all. i don't think i was trained for this. you do what you have to do. i opened up the cover. and -- leaned over and looked down in the gun. i could see a brass round jammed in there. so -- i thought only thing you can do is picked the gun up. laying down. picked the gun up. slammed it down on the ground

and picked it back up. looked in there. and it was gone. knocked it out. put the ammo back in, put the plate down and the cover. cockpit. pressed it. pressed the trigger. it worked. that's what the assistant gunner is for. assistant gunner lays to your left. he feeds you ammo. you put it in the machine gun. keeps the ammo off the ground. anything comes -- as you are firing, goes to the hand and clean stuff off. mine was laying in the ground. it was picking up all the grass dirt and rocks and stones, all the debris. i was taking that into the mechanism. jammed my gun. well, that scene went like in slow motion. i mean, everything went deaf, you know, don't hear nothing. you know, all the explosions and

all of a sudden you are in your own world. like a macbre dream. everything stops. then until i started firing, it is all real life again. and -- you know, that incident probably -- i bet that didn't take me five seconds to do what i did there. to knock it -- round out and start firing again. but at the time there was like -- it was an hour. it seemed like an hour. they stopped coming, you know, laying down and firing nice and low. and -- because you know, like -- there was just grass and we are -- some trees. you know, some smaller trees. was like off to the right real thick jungle. that's the last time i saw it. they were high on the ground, too. trying to crawl up. they stopped. but that was an incident there that scared the hell out of me,

too. when the gun stopped. >> i can imagine. >> i wasn't trained for it, you know. you just act on instinct. then -- machine gun crew over there, i heard riviera rodriguez got shot. his guts were on the ground, he is screaming over here. he's the same hard hit we are all in. and -- i'm screaming for him to get russell. he is screaming rodriguez is hit. you know. i settled in there for -- that's what i mean. no clue for time. you know. i saw him when the sky raider got shot down there which was very important to me. because -- when i was there, this sky raider was flying around up there. may have been a couple, i don't know. this one was flying around up there. i was watching from time to time, you know. i'm looking. i get up as high as i could without exposing myself too much. and -- i look around and kept looking and looking. he plying in and make these dives.

beautiful thing to watch. so he -- comes flying down real straight down. and he's firing .50 caliber machine guns. i'm assuming that -- that's where i saw it coming here. coming over to the left a little bit. stopping most of right here. so i'm assuming -- well, he has better vantage point than me from up there. so pay particular attention for anything in this area. you know. i knew -- from my buddies there, this whole field of fire. didn't have a good thing here. anyhow, so -- i wanted his -- he's dropping his bombs, too. rockets. whatever the hell he had on his planes. he was doing everything. and -- he makes a big dive on

time and watching. bam. just burst into flames. so -- to this day i don't know if he got a machine gun from the mountains or from the ground or he was flying so low, dropping his bombs so low for real that it could have been from one of his own bombs, fragments coming up. hit the fuselage. and he burst into flames. and he -- of course, still coming. flames are way back here. leaving a big trail smoking flames. he dipped down like i said very low. he dipped down and he was just above the treetop level. i'm telling you, he was than -- i bet he wasn't a football field high, 300 feet. football field high off the ground. just above the trees. you know, trees are like 30 feet or something like that. he was just above it. came right down behind us from the mountain and went down there. he ditched down into the -- he was killed. i found out it was captain mcclellan. find out years later who the pilot was. i tried to tell people this. i told general moore this gentleman was alive when he got

hit. because i -- when i -- here is another thing. i'm laying on the ground. i'm screaming at this pilot. at the top of my lungs. get out! get out! you know. just -- just a reaction. i still remember it. i'm looking up. you can't believe this. what's going on before your eyes. he is coming down. i'm looking. he is up there in the cockpit. i can see this guy looking. looking down. you know, at the ground like -- he didn't particularly see me on the ground but a nice place for him to come in on a belly landing if he could. he didn't have that choice. he goes -- he was alive. a lot of people surmised -- i am an eyewitness and i will stick to my guns. i heard people over the years that said he was killed instantly. no, that's not true. he was alive. yes. i watched him move. he died when he hit the jungle or was captured by the north vietnamese. i don't think they ever found his body. they found the plane.

that was an incident that happened when i was up there also. . . that was always like -- since i didn't participate in world war ii or korea, that was like a movie to a kid, too. kamikaze planes. to see this. but to see it live right in front of your eyes, i mean, man. that never leaves you. >> watched the movie before vietnam growing up? >> kid, yes. black and whites. yes. all those great movies and stuff. >> yeah. >> to this day i'm -- i'm a historian in the sense that i love documentaries. you know. i like -- i like watching anything real. i won't watch a fiction movie. you know. i like the documentaries,

history channel, stuff like that. but -- yeah. but when it happens in front of your face, you take a snapshot of it in your brain. it is with you for life. you never forget it. yeah. >> you make your way over to the creek bed. >> yeah. >> yes. someone came by and said -- officer came over, guys came to the left. i was happy to see that. at this time now when i'm up there -- >> yeah. i didn't know at the time either. at the time all i had seen guys killed and wounded and everything, i actually thought we were the last guys alive. me and -- buddies over in the jungle there on the other machine gun. i hear all this noise and firing and everything else. all i'm see sing dead guys, couple of medics and stuff. i figured we were taking real ass whipping and we are going down. captain comes by and passing out helmets. stay put. you are with so and so.