i was happy with that. finally we had somebody there, thank god. friendship up here. anyhow, then someone came over to me and says join your company down there in the creek bed, a company. hell, i thought they wiped out, killed. well, when i got down in the creek bed, i saw captain nadal. i saw several of my other buddies. and -- i was very, very happy to see that. and -- >> what did they say to you? >> well, no, they are all busy, too. they have been doing their thing, same -- same as i was. we are all preoccupied. loading up their guns and making sure they have more ammo. and that they are organized and -- staying -- staying focused. are you all not talking at all except do this, do this, do

this? are you going -- oh, my god, no -- >> no. >> -- i can't believe we are in this. >> no, we are beyond that point. we are focused and listening for and leadership which we had with captain nadal. thank god someone is telling us what the hell is going on here. what was i involved with here? what the hell is going on? i don't know what's going on. other than we were under attack and somebody is trying to kill me and shot my buddies, you know. what are we up against? where are we? what are we doing? you know. should we go here? right? left? what are we supposed to look for? other than the bad guy. anyhow. i felt very good, very happy in the creek bed. plus we had the shelter. i had the shelter for the first time. then in that creek bed. it is like -- i would say four feet deep, five feet at best. and four, four and a half feet deep. maybe anywhere from four feet to

six feet wide at different points. and this river came from the mountain, snaked down. zigzagged. wasn't like a straight creek. zigzagged with curves and things. guys throwing hand grenades at the enemy and our guys were in there. throwing hand grenades back and forth to each other. one side to the other, one end to the other. they were down in there. i felt good about that because i thought man, this is nice. i have cover here and some friends, you know, new game. i feel good. this was going to be no better than what i saw. >> right. >> so -- >> we are down here. and i don't know, five minutes or one minute. next thing i know he is to my right and i'm -- guys to my left. and the rest of the guys down the creek bed. i don't know how many there were right then.

10, 20 guys, 30 guys. i don't know. so he says, he's yelling, all right. get ready. get ready, guys. let's go. six. machine gun. i'm still by myself, by the way. >> yeah. >> semiconductor or ammo bearer or anything. i have very little ammo, too. there is a story i want to interject here. so he's yelling and said get yourself ready. let's go. we will make an assault. he tells the guys, he says six bayonets. six bayonets. these guys are putting bayonets to the ones that don't already have them on. what am i going do? you know. i had a bayonet on me, digging holes and stuff. opening tin cans and stuff. can't put a bayonet on a machine gun but i want to at that time. that's how insecure i felt.

god, bayonets. what's this about? i knew we were close. he said we're going to make an assault. i said i'm happy where i'm at, you know. the safest i felt all day. let's go. up over the top. i'm four, five yards, no more, to left of tony. we are going across the creek bed into the jungle. stuff is coming in. machine guns firing. gun ships above us are firing in on us. things are exploding around us, friendly fire and everything else. fourth of july. we get out about 20 yards. guys are dropping. you know. and north vietnamese are dropping out of trees and stuff. they are firing down here. this guy is dropping out of trees. everybody is firing at their own targets, you know. guys are firing at the same target. you know, whatever you see. whatever you feel comfortable with. i have this machine gun. job of the machine gunner is to spray the area and keep their heads down so we can advance. i see i have like 30 rounds of ammo left on my belt. that's it. i went through everything else.

this is what i have on this first assault. i thought hell, you know, would two pulls of a trigger and this is gone. so on the initial i had already fired, you know, 50 rounds. i'm left with 30 rounds. i'm standing like it was -- with the captain about 20 yards out, i'm guessing. he looks over at me and screams and yells at me. god damn it, fire that machine gun, lay down fire! i thought -- he doesn't know i only have a couple of rounds of 20, 30 rounds of ammo here. he can't see it. i leave a little burst off to please him. i want to use the machine gun as a rifle in a round about sense. i want to see my target and try to pick them off one or two rounds. it doesn't work that way because

you can't see them. they are bopping up and down and running around and hiding. they are at your feet and up in the trees. i didn't have enough ammo to do what he wanted. at that instant it was -- full-scale thing of fire, enemy fire, and guys beside telling me to get killed. tony on the radio. has his m-16 down. on the radio. things are all mixed up. on the radio. and he is calling in supporters and talking to colonel moore. whatever he is doing. radio man is behind. just then, just as i look over here, radio operator gets shot. gets hit. goes back on his back. just like, you know, ton of rocks. right back. you know, i'm looking. wow. these other guys drop. and the only way tony knows, he is on the phone. when the guy fell, took the phone out of his hand. tony turns around and looks for and it he's not there. down there at his feet. that was that. tony said let's go. everybody grabbed a guy and drug

them back down into the creek bed. them guys are laying there dead, dying. that's that deal. probably five minutes later, ten minutes, i don't know what it is, he says all right, line up of. we are going to make another assault. somebody gives me a box of ammo. i am good to go now. i feel fairly good. we make another assault to go out there. everybody is doing their thing. we are dropping again and stuff. we get 20 yards out there. pull back. that type of thing. so i don't know how many assaults they make before i got there. and then the third one we tried to go left into the thick towards the mountain. i didn't know at the time but i think that was to three to find savage, ernie savage. i remember the trip very well. we didn't go any -- fare any better there either. go back 20, 30 yards and have to come back.

that heavy. they were out there. fixed positions now. so -- it was -- it was -- bizarre. to say the least. i tell you. it was very hectic. you know. >> what are you feeling? what are these emotions happening? are you just reacting, reacting, following orders? are you -- >> yes, yes. one good thing about us, we -- like i stated earlier, we were close-knit group. we didn't hesitate when the lieutenant said follow me. although when he passed us he looked white as a ghost. looked like the color drained out of him. he must have gotten orders from captain nadal. they pass them down. must have gotten orders, they said there is enemy. >> expand the perimeter. >> we followed him. what the hell. we followed him for two months prior to that. we followed him to ft. benning. that's what we are taught to do.

tony says let's go. captain nadal. we went. we didn't hesitate. one guy hesitated. that's all. >> he hesitated. >> he pulled -- i could jump ahead with the story. i don't mind sharing this with you. it is important to me. through the who whole two and a half, three days there in the battle, i assumed our ammo bearer was killed, shot and killed. or wounded. medevaced back to a safer place. we when we get back to the base camp two, three days later, get refitted and resupplied, we went back and asking -- we are standing out there for count in the morning, and you see all these spaces, you know, platoon went from 30 guys down to 20,

you know, company went from this down to this. and -- all these small numbers, squads. where is so-and-so? well, he was shot. he was killed. yeah, i saw him get killed. russell, yeah, he got -- he died. i told people russell got killed. only came back. that's where i left him. i didn't know they got him to japan and saved his life and fixed him up. i told guys russell died. he got killed. i saw him. you know. we are sharing stories. i said where's john? our ammo bearer. he's down there in his pup tent. pup tents there. which was home to us. and -- i said what do you mean he is down there? is he hurt? no. combat shock. he left you guys. what do you mean he left us? he says -- when the -- when it hit the fan, first started, i guess he saw as much as we did, too, shocked. he just didn't handle it the way

we did. he took off and got on a chopper coming in. and then leave and got on a chopper and took him out. there's been witnesses on the chopper pilots that took him out said there was this guy that they took back and he was babbling. he was -- god bless him. i understand the shock of that combat and what we saw and everything else. he didn't handle it very well. anyhow, they called the combat shock. the mood i was in after that thing and -- my buddies and everybody else, really pissed off about a lot of things. really hurting. i said -- i'm going down and shoot the son of a bitch. i didn't shoot him. i got my .45 out. i went down there and flipped the flat back. and i -- >> .45 in your hand. >> yeah, i think i was going

shoot him. that was my intention. i said -- he left us without ammo. russell got hit. you know, i was out of ammo several times. you know. i wasn't a happy camper. >> go back and get it yourself. >> i wasn't a happy camper. anyhow, he was supposed to be -- could have been overrun because of him. anyhow, i go down there. put the flap open. i'm going to ream him out. if he gives me lip, i might shoot him. i look at him. he is sitting in this pup tent on top of his helmet, head in his hands. he looked up at me. like -- the most pitiful look i have ever seen on a man's face. i wouldn't know how to describe it. looked at me and is like --

remorse, the shame. i don't know what to call it. it was extremely pitiful look. i cursed him out. you son of a bitch. i left. that was the last we saw him. they gave him an article 15 -- medical discharge is what they gave him. there was something i wanted to say with russell, about him. i had it when i was telling the story. something fairly important up there. >> that happened in the action? >> yeah, with russell. it didn't have to do with john. that's a shame. it will come to me afterwards. >> the guy jumped up and you said -- >> i had it. i'm just trying to get this one out. it was a fairly important thing i really wanted to get off my chest. >> was it something when he was on the gun? >> it was before i left. it was up there. it wasn't the airplane. it was something else. it wasn't the gun jamming. >> wasps? >> that was at a creek bed.

that was another story. that was crazy, too, boy. i talk about unexpected things. >> let me ask you this and we need to wrap it up because we have somebody else waiting. you're there, you're there that night, you're there the next day. what are you physically like? tell me what's going on. >> exhausted. no sleep. we didn't sleep. we only got like two, three hours sleep the night before. one man on for three hours, one off. actually by the time you get to sleep and you're up at 5:00 in the morning, you only get two, three hours sleep. so we went that whole day with all that action without any sleep and then the next day nobody was sleeping. i know i didn't. we were totally exhausted. and it wears down on you and it starts to get like a dream world. it really does. the 16th, it was like shot. we were standing there waiting to get helicoptered out, artillery shells were coming in close to us.

we weren't even moving. we were numb. >> on the 16th? >> yeah. they were just blowing up over there. you stand up there, who gives a damn, you know? you're just like no fear. just worn out. who cares. >> do you remember moore that day from the 16th? >> i just remember seeing him, yeah. and be honest with you, what i remember of colonel moore when i first saw him after that battle was i saw a very -- i don't want to say this the wrong way -- i saw a very worn out man. i mean, he looked beat. but then we did, too. see, i didn't have a mirror to look at myself. i didn't know what i looked like. we were all worn out. i looked at my buddies there, just leaning on the rifles, just

nobody's talking, nobody's saying anything, you know, what they saw and what they experienced. i guess it's all going through your mind. general moore was no different. he looked exactly like us. but i was surprised. you know, i figured, well, he'd be all chipper and clean. he wasn't. he was as dirty as we were, filthy and just worn out. you talk about a guy not sleeping. i'm sure he didn't get any sleep because he had to coordinate for the next day. me, all i could do was just stay put and hope we didn't get attacked again, get overrun. >> what about the broken arrow call? what do you remember about that? this is the morning of the 15th. >> i didn't know about it but i remember the day. all hell broke loose there. and i was over at the creek area during that -- those events and that was -- that was another macabre scene. it's like this is big. this is serious.

and actually into the third day, i was resigned to the fact that we might be there all week. and i thought how? how can we? but i didn't know thank god the thing was over, for us anyhow. god bless the guys of the second and seventh, what they ran into. >> 40th anniversary, 40 years after this, bill, how has it been for you, here at the reunion? >> it's always good. it's always good to come down here. i've been coming down here since they initiated the law in 1982/'83. i've been coming every year and sometimes twice a year. and it's great to see the guys, it great to be able to talk to them, share. you know, camaraderie down here, everybody that's here went through the same thing you did. and that's the calming, the calming effect. it helps.

but it's hard, too, because we share stories and we start talking about our friends and so those memories, they drift back here to the painful times. >> what about russ? he survived. >> russ is one of the strongest men i know, god bless him. he lives 110 miles from my house. he has a dairy farm. he has like 50 black and white cows. he gets up in the morning, goes to bed at midnight, he milks the cows, he has the big vats that old all the gallons and gallons of milk. so he's a dairy farmer. he's successful at it, very hard work. tough. not a big guy, 5'8", 5'10", just a tough off-the-farm kid. you know, they come from inner cities and out in the plains and everything else.

russell was a farmer, a tough farm boy. you know, worked on the farm with his dad as a kid and everything. strong as an ox. >> tell me about the book and the movie. what's that done for you? how has that affected you? >> it's a nice accolade to us. it's a nice credit to our battle and the efforts that everybody gave forth. i'm glad it wasn't swept under the rug which i'm sure the politicians would have love to have swept -- they did in a roundabout way. they told the american people it was a victory and it was but at what cost. but anyhow, the movie was wonderful. they did a great job. there's a lot of truth to it and more truth than hollywood. i'm just happy it's out there in a book for generations to read, future generations to read. and we pray to god somebody read it and change history, the way we do things.

the way things are done. find a better way than war. find a better way than war. i mean, read that book and read other books on horrible battles of our time and the things that are going on today and say, you know, we can't just keep giving these 58,226 kids and these 2,040 kids to this date or 45 and just constantly give, give, give. you got find some other means. >> yeah. >> it would be nice but i don't know if it's ever going to happen, there's got to be sacrifices, but i'm glad the book and everything is out there for people to read. i hope the younger generations read and learn because it's a good book. it's a good story that was told. >> all right, bill. well, thank you so much for sitting and doing this. >> thanks for your time. i thank you for your time. thank you very much. every weekend hear

eyewitness accounts about american history and the people and events that shape our nation. oral histories saturday at 8:00 a.m. eastern, sunday afternoon at 3:00 and again monday mornings at 4:00 eastern, only on american history tv on c-span3. learn more about our programs and our other series along with schedules and online video archive at c-span.org/history. get our schedules and see past programs on our web site. you can join in the conversation on social media sites. coming um on c-span3, a forum on security in afghanistan after u.s. troops leave that country. that's live starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern. tonight and c-span3, more american history tv starting at

8:00 eastern. american artifacts looks at the james madison family cemeteries. at 8:30, a look at old sturbridge village. and at 9:00 p.m., the firks lst ladies exhibit. >> the institutes of medicine called on the g20 to approve its recommendatio recommendations. this briefing is 50ments. -- 50 minutes. so good afternoon, everyone. and thank you very much for coming. my name is gillian buckley and

i'm the institute of medicine study director for this report and i'm very happy to be with you today to share with a wider audience the committee's work for the last year on building capacity for food and drug regulation in developing countries. and it's a pleasure to introduce to you professor jim riviere, the bureau's evened distinguished professor of pharmacology at north carolina state university. dr. riviere was elected to the iom in 2003 for his contributions to the mathematical modelling of pha o pharmoco-kinetics. and he will review with you the

conclusions and recommendations that committee made in this report. so thank you very much and here's jim. >> thank you, gillian. thank you for coming out to listen to what we've done over the last year, year and a half. what i would like to do is to briefly review this report, which is a relatively complex report but why did we do it? why were we tasked to do it? essentially fda has realized that the world has changed relative to the types of products it must regulate. 80% of active ingredients of pharmaceutical agents are not produced in the united states. 40% of finished drugs come from abroad. 85% of seafood, 39% of fruit and nuts. if you look at medical devices, which the fda is also responsible for regulating, there's been a four-fold

increase in medical device importation over the last decade. taking this into consideration, there is 20 million import lines that fda has to keep track of. just try to let that number sink in. i know we've had some issues in the last few days and the last year and the last decade of very specific aspects, but they're tasked to look at 20 million different import lines. even if you take a look at a product as innocent as a nutrition bar, if you actually look at even if that's manufactured in the united states, there could be six or seven different countries in which the ingredients that go into that finished product have been sourced in a different country. so this is a huge task ahead. so what was the committee and what did we do? we were essentially tasked three things by fda. one was to define the core elements of food, drug and

medical device regulatory systems in developing countries. secondly after assessing what these would be, what are the gaps in those systems? and once we identified the gaps, how do we think we could actually address these gaps both in the short term, which is three to five years and ultimately the longer term. what did we do? we visited and went on four trips to brazil, south africa, china and india and at these meetings, which lasted anywhere from two to four days each, we also met with representatives from other regional countries. so we talked to basically people from about a dozen countries. we talked to government regulators, government -- other members of government agencies. we talked to the regulated industries, both multi-national, drug companies, domestic drug companies, professional

associations, nongovernmental organizations and developmental organizations and structured meetings to less than structured meetings and essentially had open public meetings and discussed what is the core elements and what really are the status of these systems. i want to stress that our task was not to specifically look at a consideration not to look at the granularity of a specific product, it was how do the systems interrelate and how can fda learn with these systems and work with these systems to improve drug and food safety coming into the united states. there's a lot of detail in this report, and again i don't want to turn this into a semester lecture. so in two or three minutes, what i really want to look at is there's four base being core

elements of a regulatory system that's important. one, a system has to be responsive. it has to be responsive to problems that occur, but it also has to be responsive in terms of being able to adapt to new types of problems and new types of regulated products. so what worked ten years ago may not work today. it has to be adaptable. we believe it has to be outcome oriented so that no matter how the system is set up, we have to realize there's massive cultural and political differences between all of the countries and so therefore systems need to be set up and processes impleme implementable but are actually implementable in those countries. if you reach a point that the product is being safe, then the product should be able to be exported. in line with that, they have to be predictable. so whatever occurs in that line is that if the same type of a

process goes through with a same type of a problem, it actually going to get detected. and importantly it has to be independent. it has to be independent of overt political control and micromanaging, it has to be independent of economic factors. it has to be able to be based on a system that really just looks at what is the risk and the safety. going into a little bit more granularity in this line, can you essentially see one can look at a number of different approaches to what regulatory system one is looking at. you have to realize one thing we may be talking about and looking at is food, we may be looking at drug development, which is a different approach, however, there are common element. one is a government set testing