they said why not, sir? he said, because they taught no history. a leader has to know history. so we've got to have leaders in the media, leaders in the press, leaders in institutions such as this who take this cause to heart and do something about it. there's nothing wrong with the younger generation. the younger generation is terrific. any problems that they have, any failings they have in what they know and don't know and how they use the english language is not their faults, it's their faults. we've got to hold the media responsible. this turning of our political life and our -- and the future of the world into a sports event where it's all about who is aahead and what the polls are and the questions they ask at these so-called debates innane.

it's like they're playing down to the lowest common denominator. we have to demand more of them. >> all right. we have two people at the microphone. in fact, we have three. please go aahead with your question. >> first, mr. mccullough would like to thank you. i'm a public school elementary teacher in the state of oklahoma. thank you for yurd kind words about what we do in the classroom. i would like to pick your minds of this es teemed panel, i teac american history in the fifth grade. however my class, my test does not count that we are not

reading or mathematics. however, i fully believe that i am the one that is helping to prepare my students to be citizens and to eventually take care of me. so what are your -- what are your thoughts on what i should do as a professional and what i should do to help make the constitution count in oklahoma? >> peter. pete. >> me? >> this is how to make the constituti constitution. >> all right. good. >> how do i encourage the powers to be in the state of oklahoma that american history in the elementary level should be

count counted? does that clarify my question? this is directly off the top of my head. i'm sorry. >> yeah. so how can we persuade the powers that be that what you're doing has civic significance and therefore should count? >> yes. >> yeah. well are there any legislatures in the house right now? >> this is a follow-up to david's point about the media. could we generation some media of our own? could, for example, in the state of oklahoma this institution find a way to recognize and broadcast the successes that are happening in the classroom? to reward the teachers and the students by that kind of attention partly to educate our other leaders?

also to -- up to encourage a sense of the possibilities of things that really are working in the classroom. >> if i understand your question correctly, one of the problems is that in -- this is everywhere, that because of the emphasis on reading and math they have pretty much not just pushed history to the back burner, they put it off the stove. >> yes. >> i think there's a very good solution to that, and that is, mine stress math and reading. could we please, when we think about reading something worthwhile, read the literature of history. >> certainly. >> read lincoln's second inaugural address. read the letters from a birmingham jail. read the great passages from the classic history that's been written about the country, whether it's something that was written last month or something

that was written 100 years ago. and let them discover not just the poll of history but, again, how these people and those moments can come back to life if they convey with a powerful use of our language. and the -- i couldn't agree more about it has to be done early. if you want to get a child interested in the founding fathers, have them read a book called "ben and me" by robert frost. >> we do. >> do you know him? it's about a mouse who lived in ben franklin's attic. >> good, good. >> i encountered him when i was 6, and he said that all of ben's great ideas were wonderful, but they weren't ben's, they were his, amos'. >> right, right. >> it's very well researched and

it's superbly written. i have used it with my own children and grandchildren. it always works. >> all right. >> these things work generation after generation. always get them to read above their level, and never ask them to read truck, jurngs boring, tedious history. and forget about memorizing dates. that's what books are for. you can look them up. >> all right. thank you. >> i do have something i'd like to say in response to this, and that is smef my satisfying teaching is with teachers in teach american history programs and guilder lerman programs. the bad news is that all of these programs, the tha is out and guilder lerman is in trouble. something like the american constitution center, and this is all because we're too heavily taxed. it's about what it comes down to, folks.

i don't mean to be offensive and i know it's oklahoma. if you want to invest in the future, that's what it means. this doesn't come for nothing. >> howdy, guys. thank you very much for coming to our great university. thank you very much, diane, for moderating the discussion so beautifully. my question deals with the world. our constitution is our document, but people in every country in the world look at it and look to it. what are the differences in the challenges, the importance, the opportunities of teaching the constitution at peking university or university of cairo or in seoul, south korea versus teaching it here in our country? is it important to do so? if you have experience doing so, what are the challenges and surprises that you had? >> i'll take a shot at your

question. it's a very interesting question. there's been a recent article suggesting that the american constitution has lost some of its influence abroad. there's no doubt in the basic structure of our government, that is a separation of powers versus the parliamentary system, the british system, that our system has not been copied as much as the british system. it is extraordinary to look around and see how much our constitution has influenced the world. first of all, the whole idea of a constitution. when you think about a constitution now, it's a written document. if iraq is going to have a constitution, if afghanistan is going to have a constitution, it's going fob a written document. that was our influence. if -- one thing we haven't mentioned, which has been very influential, is the idea of an independent judiciary. other states, including great britain, britain just created a supreme court. they finally lifted a few of the house of -- members of the house of lords out of the house of

lords and said, "you're going to be our supreme court." that's in the last two years. a bill of rights? other states in europe have adoptd bills of rights. independent judiciary, ratification, the whole idea of referendums, these are all things that came out of american experience. so even though our separation of powers, that is to say, we do not allow members of the ministry, the cabinet to simultaneously hold office in the legislature, which is exactly what the british mand e mandate -- that system of separation of powers has not been copied. in all other respects, we've been very, very influential around the world. >> gordon, i'm very glad to hear you say that, because i said something in a very similar -- in a blog post on the national constitution center website in

response to a very interesting article in the "new york times" by adam liptak in which he suggested that the rest of the world was not really following the american model, and i said the headline the rest of the world is becoming democratic and american and with a bill of rights and judicial review. then the other things are smaller issues of institutional detail and the presidentist model of a separate president has working particularly poorly in south america. it's led to a sense of gridlock, the legislature is controlled by one group. the presidency by a different party. there's a perception that things don't get done, presidents get frustrated and they start to just govern by executive decree, unilater

unilateralism. this led to coups. you see some possible pathologicals in the united states with divided governments, presidents tempted to do all sorts of things by executive order. there's a very interesting question about -- it's not just true of the u.s. constitution. it's true of 50 state constitutions. it's where governors are elected independently of state legislatures, where the legislature might be controlled by a different party than the governor. it is a very interesting question, whether that's the better model. it is the american model. >> there is another dimension of american constitutionalism which seems increasingly relevant, and that is federalism. we have a deeply conflicted feeling about our own federal history, but the fact is that europe is on the verge of failure. the euro zone is going to fall apart, which could have global implications of a disastrous order. and that what they can't do is what's built into our system, a system of burden-sharing and of

transfer of payments. we can handle things that the world will need to handle on an increasingly large scale. >> but isn't there another issue there? i heard governor jerry brown of california say the other day that if the legislature won't agree to something, it goes to the people. and the people can't create a referendum and decide that way. it is truly taking the government or the governing of that state to the people. how does that fit into the larger picture? >> i think this kind of direct democracy is probably a little dangerous. and our representative system

has worked very well, but there are increasing uses of this kind of -- well, it came out of the progressive era, which itself was a period in which politics seemed to be dead, bosses were in control and i think it's very similar to our own time that the gross inequalities of wealth were enormous. i think a lot of reforms were passed that led to the use of ballot initiatives and referendums. i think we don't really want to go down that path. i know colorado is really suffering from this. they're all over the place. they're having referendums to repeal previous referendums, and it becomes a very dangerous situation. you know, there is the possibility technically with half a century or maybe shorter where we as a people directly could vote on the budget.

you could say every april 15th the people will have internet connection and will decide yes or no on the budget. this kind of direct democracy is possible. whether it's the best way to run aa democracy with 300-plus million is, i think, problematic. >> i think we have time for one last question. . >> hello, everybody. >> hello. >> sorry for the -- >> i hope you're all right. >> sorry for the interruption, the distraction on the fall. i was a teenager when the franklin roosevelt's new deal got started. right early on a bunch of new deal legislation -- >> please stay close. >> got slammed down by the supreme court.

franklin roosevelt's solution was to pack the court. let's get more people on the court. and then we'll get the majority in favor of the new deal. another challenge is the war in court and more recently the united citizens where corporations know limits on campaign contributions so that the super-pacs now sometimes outpace the regular campaign money. my point is if i were teaching the constitution, i would think it very important historically

to come against and explain and discuss those points where the constitution was really challenged. and part of that would be the drama to getting a new amendment. so i just think -- i think the students would get excited about the challenges. >> all right, all right. thank you. akhil. >> so i liked rosie's suggestion that we could -- rose marie's suggestion that we could ask students what they think about a constitutional convention. i've gone around to classrooms as young as first graders, and one question i asked them is at jefferson what amendment, what

do you think should be in the constitution that isn't or is -- forget even a constitutional convention across the board. i've got to tell you that i learned some amazing things from first graders. i remember once i went, and i said, what would you put in the constitution? and one first grader said, no drugs. >> no what? >> no drugs. and so i thought about that, and i said that's a very good idea. drugs are very bad, and your life is going to be a lot better. then i thought, you know, we did have this with prohibition, and it didn't work so we will. honestly, that was the first time in my life i began to think maybe it's possible this war on drugs, you know, won't end so well. and i'm not taking a strong position on that. i'm saying asking kids, young people something like, what

should -- what do you -- a lot of them said era, and we talked about that. these are first graders and third graders and fifth graders. >> any other comment? >> i'd just like to add something off this topic about resource four studying the constitution. some of you may know about the documentary history of the ratification of the constitution, which is a wonderful documentary project being done at madison, wisconsin. the documentary edition is now available online with other papers of the founders so that those -- we've had these wonderful editorial editions that nobody has ever looked at. they're now available, and they're getting wonderful use. for advanced high school and college students, you can now look at the ratification debates. you can do word searches. you can read them, and they're

not just available at university libraries. they're available now the strip down edition thanks to a mellon grant and the documentary with all the documentary materials. you can get it through libraries such as ou's library that have rights to do so. it's a wonderful and democratic move in terms of information availability and accessibility. it's going to be very empowering for future generations of students, and i hope for a future generations of legislators reflecting on our history. >> could i just add to that? this documentary collection, which is now about 25 volumes of debates over democrat stee acie also the issues of liberty, representation, federalism, all of these issues are debated, and it's the greatest collection of debates on these issues of

democracy in the history of the world. now, it may be that fifth century greeks had a richer debate, but we don't know and md had a really rich debate. we only know a fragment of what went on. here we have 25 volumes of people, ordinary people in these ratification conventions debating these fundamental issues of how much government should we have? how much liberty? how much freedom? how much representation? what does representation mean? all of these basic issues. it's all now, as peter says, available online. >> well, thank all of you so much [ applause ]

throughout the weekend here on american history tv on c-span 3, watch personal interviews about historic events on oral history. revisit key figures, battles and events during the 150th anniversary of the civil war. visit college classrooms. go behind the scenes as museums and historic sites on american art facts. and the president looks at the policies and legacies of past american presidents. view our complete schedule and sign up to have it e-mailed to you by pressing the c-span alert button. next a look at the city's rich history and culture.

the historic arkansas museum is in downtown little rock. it encompasses five houses situationed on their original foundations. the houses are used to interpret the lives of 19th century urban slaves and slave owners. >> this is the brownlee house. built by robert brownlee for his brother james and james' wife isabelle. they did have two slaves. this is the slave that would have spent her time caring for the house where we are now is the bedroom. this is typical of a middle class bedroom. we know she did needle work. so we have placed items in here that she might have used working with yarn. miss brownlee is isabelle

brownlee, who married james when she was about 14. she came here when she was about 16 years old. so she was a young bride. she was away from home. far, far away from home, and was home sick and very unhappy, and she was sickly as well. so he speaks of the slave very briefly in his memoir. he says isabelle took her passions out. we don't know what that means, except she was treated badly and robert brownlee noticed it. we are walking through the breezeway. in the summer this is the coolest part of the house. we open both doors, and most of the family's time would be spent out here. they might take the dining room table and bring it out here to have their meals. this is the parlor. this is where she would have done any entertaining.

isabelle brownlee was taken from her home when she was so young. she came to arkansas when she was still a teenager and had not been married to james brownlee for very lounge. long. they arrive in 1848, and they left in 1852. the house was sold in 1852. isabelle felt isolated here, and she returned to scotland while her husband james went to california. a few yards away is where she would have had her own bedroom, and would have done most of her work for the family. she was responsible for the laundry. somehow would have been responsible for cooking all the meals. she would have tended the garden.

she was the only slave of the brownlee family, so she would have been responsible for maintaining the household all together. >> this is the work area of the kitchen. everything in here is actually reproduction, although it's authentic 1840s, 1850s furniture. a typical day is getting up in the morning and cooking a morning meal. in the afternoon she would work on perhaps repairing clothing, making clothing, cleaning, things like that. generally the cooking was done for the hot part of the day. ladies of the house typically worked i long side their slaves, depending on what the work was

to be done. polishing silver. often cooking might be downright alongside the slaves. since she was the only slave, isabelle probably worked alongside her doing most of the tasks that needed to be done. they made an effort to keep their slaves together # the talk in the town was that if you were a slave, that you would want to be a slave of the ashley family. the ashley family gave their slaves a little more autonomy than some of the other slaves in town would have had. they were many more of them, so their duties were more specific. they were to come and go not as they pleased, but as needed to take care of the things done in the household, this was true for tabby, also. so as you're cooking, your tasks might include going to the market to buy more food which would have been on an account by the family at the store.

slaves in general in town had more autonomy than slaves on plantations did. so in that respect, the ashley family was not that unusual. but the ashley family was known to be kinder to their slaves than isabelle likely was to tabby. this is tabby's bedroom area. this would have been pretty much her own space. right here, what we have set up is somewhere for her to hang her laundry in case of rain. it looks like it might rain today, so her laundry she will hang to dry on these bamboo poles here. this is her bed and it's like a murphy bed. it will fold up against the wall. she has her own fireplace that she probably would have kept lit most of the time. and we do have some things that she might have had, little boxes

for anything that she wanted to keep things in. there were a lot of slaves in the area who aspired to learn to read, especially after learning that the ashley place, almost all of them were literate. so tabby probably was one of the slaves who would have attended one of williams wallace andrews' prayer meetings. william wallace andrews was one of the ashley slaves, and he was a minister, and he would conduct prior meetings at his home. and during the course of those prayer meetings, he taught the attendees to actually read the words in the bible. i think tabby probably was one of those slaves who would have gone to one of those prayer meetings. i was very surprised by the autonomy the slaves were given, how they were not just permitted, but required to come and go without constant

permission from the slave master. there were things that they were expected to take care of during the day and in the course of that, you were required to go to the market. you were required to go to the river to meet a shipment. you were expected to do that and you didn't have to have a pass to do so. as the slaves on plantations did. slaves on plantations had to have a pass to move from one plantation to the other, even if they wanted to go visit their family. slaves in urban areas were expected to come and go and they were not required to have a pass to do so. i think people have a conception of slavery, but not so much of the individual people. what we tried to convey here is that the slave experience was as varied for the enslaved people as life would have been for free people. no two slaves had exactly the same experience.