military mind-set. but by all means, the fgp does not intend to go into a coalition with the military over that subject. we actually want to learn about countries that moved from a military kind of a paradigm to civil like spain and we had actually one workshop with people who brought us like the biggest lessons in that experience. which goes also along the lines with the liberal business and so on. we went to south africa and we tried to learn about their reconciliation program. we are not, i think, in any position not in our party in our country we are not in any position to exclude anyone now. we are not in any position to go into unnecessary premature kind of fights for no reason. we actually would like to include everyone who has even been part of the business apparatus in the old je jeem so long as they accept the new

rules and sort of ease them into it. and think about some of them and some of the discussions they said. you had to go through this model in his book. actually lists 32 families in egypt. imagine how narrow the base is, and they tell us we had to go to these 32 families. that was the system. otherwise you wouldn't do the business in egypt. how can you incriminate now after the fact the behavior that was more or less the rule? so what we would like to do is gradually stop it going forward, create all kinds of new measures of transparency, checks and balances and so on but try to ease these people into it, as well. there is no point in running them out of the country. and nothing will happen, nothing good will come out of it, by the way. the tourism industry, one of the first meetings we had as a party with the different industrial

teams in egypt was with the owners of the tourism industry. we had like two huge town hall meetings, and they, of course, came up with all these concerns. what are you going to do about people in swimming suits and beaches and liquor and stuff like that. and our answer to them was we actually would like not only to maintain the tourism industry. we would like to expand it and make it aligned with the promise of egypt. you know, that the repeat tourism in egypt is the one of the lowest in the world although this is an amazing country for those who have visited. but how many people would like to come again? very few. not because of -- it's because of what happens when you go, the experience you get as we say in business. you just go see the pyramids once in your life. the repeat business in egypt, the repeat tourism in egypt last i've seen was 4% versus france, which was 60%.

you go to the champs-elysees, you want to go every year. you send your kids on their honeymoon to the champs-elysees you don't send them to luxor. so no, we actually want to work with that industry to improve it, okay? >> very good. let's have another round of questions. i think i stopped sitting in the front row here. so if we could bring the -- >> so questions now to tunis and jordan. >> okay. >> thank you very much, masood. i think it was music to my ears listening to starting with mondher and finishing with ali. in regards to the plan going forward. the revolution started not because of food and bread on the table. it started for dignity and freedom.

my worry with a plan being a fantastic plan that's been put forward here of the pillars with objectives, the same thing with the way you're doing for the next 12, 13 months, what you want to do, i think you're going to have bread and food revolution coming to you if you think you're going to go through that and it's going to be done. i think as obama said last year, this is history in the making. it's the beginning of history. you are starting from zero. start from zero in a world where everybody's bankrupt, we have crisis from europe to united states and elsewhere in terms of financial crisis, economic crisis and even sovereign crisis and that perspective. you need to kick start the economies. the only way you're going to kick start these economies, you're not going to have stability coming just like that to come through like normal process through economic model. it's going to be through sustainability. you need to create sustainability, sustainability

means immediate jobs creation. it's not a question of we're going to do this for you. you've got to the create jobs in the next one year to why don't we say the two and a half years. if you don't do that, we're going to have revolutions big, big time. i would look at egypt because what happens although we thank all of us as arabs we should thank the tunisians for where we are today. all of us as arabs should be paying taxes to tunis for the next 50 years. >> how about that. >> i think he'll be happy to take it. >> but i mean -- >> there is an envelope. >> by the way, i take 10%. no, egypt, i think, being serious, egypt is where things would happen. if egypt is successful, it's all the 350, 400 million arabs will be successful in the future. so egypt is going to play the role. it's not just the interest of

egyptians. all the arabs have an interest in egypt to get it right. and to get it right you need to create jobs immediately. to create jobs, i don't think you're going to do it the way you put it forward because it's not going to happen. you need 20 million jobs in the next two to three years and you have to create momentum. the only way you're going to do that is infrastructure. you need to build big-time infrastructure in the next two to three years. it's not going to happen easy. i was happy that you guys are here to push u.s. egyptians to push here jobs, jobs, jobs. that's what you want. and this place here, they can help you. they cannot pay you, but there is only one place who can do that for you. we have the money in the gulf each year $200 to $300 billion. we thank the iranian problem and everything else, the oil price today $125, $130. that increase sitting here most of it is going to be treasury bills sitting here doing nothing. that money in the next five years if we have basically $500 billion across the board $100 billion each year coming through

for the countries in transition to create jobs through investment. not through giving you a loan, not through donation. investment and investment infrastructures because anybody who knows lady in the back, business 15 to 20 years return. so you need that investment. that's what you've got to push for to go forward. because my problem is you're not going to be successful with what you've said. you said something about smes. marwan and i have been fighting this elsewhere when he was younger on this issue of critical thinking. the reason the smes did not work in egypt, critical thinking was not allowed. for entrepreneurship, you need critical thinking. it's not to do with skills, it's values. we don't allow values to be there for argument sake. first question when i was talking about the constitution, it's a silly obnoxious question. but we talk about basic human

rights. all our rights are protected under the constitution. now, would muslim brotherhood accept for a muslim born egyptian changes say when he becomes 20, says i want to be christian or i want to be buddhist or atheist or whatever? would the constitution protect his rights? those are the questions that need to be answered on long-term basis. that is critical thinking being allowed to go through. i think we need to think from that aspect. thank you. >> thank you. so i think the gentleman in the back who had his hand up from the beginning. i'll turn to him now. >> thank you. i have a question about for tunis. for the last decade, tunisia has not applied the boycott against israel. >> could you just repeat that point? >> sure. over the last decade,

different islamic parties are saying that the boycott should be reinstated. and i wanted to find out what the brotherhood's position was on this, especially considering that we're going to move forward with the free-trade agreement and any free-trade agreement needs to be approved by the u.s. congress. thank you. >> that's a good question. the gentleman over here. >> hello. i'd be interested to know the economics of -- sorry -- there is a lot of talk over here about the support of gulf countries to islamic groups, be it in tunisia, jordan, even in my country of egypt. if you could kindly expand on

that, i would be grateful. expanding on walid's question, actually, there is a general -- a general feeling over here that the west in general has -- even in egypt or most of our countries, that many of those countries have taken on the economic dimension of the arab spring countries as the only tool through which they could influence and have leverage oncoming and new regimes coming out of such revolutions. based on your experience and on your interaction with such factors to which extent, do you agree with the statements and if you do agree, how do you plan to deal with it? thank you. >> so just to be clear, the two questions that you wanted to raise were the -- the second one about the extent to which you feel that the panelists agree that the economic lever is the one that is being used.

[ inaudible ] do you find that there is a use of the economic lever by the west, i think you said, as a way of influencing the policies of the new governments? there's one question over there. >> thank you. i'm from georgetown university. my question is for both -- of relevant for both the doctors. i think we've tended to underemphasize economics. i mean, certainly dignity and freedom were important, but it's no coincidence that the uprising began in the interior of the country. the egyptian slogan on the first day of the revolution was bread and social justice. i haven't heard anything about social justice. i've heard there will be an attempt in a keynesian mode to establish 100,000 jobs in

tunisia, but i heard none of that with regard to egypt. so, for example, will under your program and leadership unions be able to be independent and have the right to strike? and what kinds of social justice measures will you have for the 40% of people who are living on the margins at or below poverty? because i think that was a very important part of the revolutions in tunisia, egypt, and elsewhere. thank you. >> that's good. four questions now. maybe this time we'll switch the order since there are more questions for tunis. great to start here. >> a very egyptian kind of a joke. sorry. creating jobs in infrastructure, i thought i said that looking at three streams of programs, one of which is this 50 to 100 projects, $1 billion each.

the second the smes and the third is the infrastructure. we're actually looking at infrastructure as a stream in its own right. you're absolutely right. i think this is where we will probably in the next year or two start to kick off some really megaprojects on the infrastructure side to get the economy going. it's not going to work with the 1 million to 2 million jobs you'd like to create with the sme program if it's successful because of the pressure from the government bureaucracy as well. that needs somehow to shrink. so i definitely agree with you. on the social justice issue, i think that's a very key question because i agree with you. but we have to pay tribute to the revolution succeeded i think because it emphasized some basic human values.

it didn't recognize any narrowly defined kind of interest. hence social justice would simply be a very integral objective of the revolution and hence any objective of anyone who was serving the revolution. and i have to state my personal view that the party was elected because people felt that this is the party that could serve the revolution. if they fail, they would be elect us out. the values of the revolution are more dominant in my mind than the agenda of anything. so i agree with you 100%. parts of the program is to empower the civil society with all the factions, not just the unions. that's one important point. by shrinking the government and sort of lifting some of its grip on society, we're trying to also introduce mechanisms by which people have access to jobs, better education, health, economic opportunities and so on

and hence creating social justice. by working on the judicial system as well, so on and so forth. this was maybe a very abstract kind of a statement, but if you look carefully, it is intended to design and achieve them. the economic lever, i think if i may just make a comment. at least in my own experience so far, i have seen people very interested in the arab spring in all its aspects -- the economic, the cultural, the political and so on. i have been engaged and have seen engagement and i've been in the country very, very long. i've seen a renewed energy in interacting with the arab world after the revolution that goes beyond the economic issues. i don't think it's just the economic lever. i think it's part of a broader dialogue that i think -- this event to me is sort of a

historic kickoff of such a dialogue. i think it goes beyond that. >> there was one other question i think the gentleman had which was how did you find the sort of -- what is your experience vis-a-vis the gulf countries in terms of their interest in actually supporting the process of transition? >> i think there are two levels to the issue of the gulf countries with the arab spring. one level is the immediate perception, at least, that the arab spring is bringing a destabilizing factor to the region. and i wouldn't blame anyone for feeling that way, because if you lived in the arab world in the last year, it is a very volatile kind of environment, which would make anybody nervous. on the other hand, the economic,

cultural tie between the gulf and the rest of the arab world is actually the core of the relationship. we're hoping in egypt to calm down the concerns and worries by making two statements that we are very sincere about. number one, we are in no mood to export anything to anyone because we understand to begin with that revolutions are not something that you export. change in any society has to come from within. we are not at all interested in instituting or pushing any change in any place outside of our own country. the second message is we definitely would like to integrate with the gulf countries, not just on economic issues, not just to get investments but a much broader scale, as well, because we see these evolutions as sort of a civilization kind of a project, if you will. and we are not going to go it alone. we are going to go it with the

rest of the world. and starting with our region. i don't think the gulf states are anywhere detached from the factors that have occurred in egypt or tunisia as anyone else. >> thank you. anything you would like to add to what -- that you would like to add from the questions that were raised? since there were also a few questions to tunis. >> yes. i think i will start by the last part of the question. is the social justice part of the revolution is very important. when i said the revolution is that of dignity, you said it the other way around. that doesn't mean we do not recognize the importance of economics into this and that if we don't succeed in economics, that we'll have the next wave as a bread and food revolution. so we are very conscious about that. but it is important to remind

people when they just tack this from a bread and food point of view to tell them that the economic -- the democratic transition process and the political process is very important. it's a project in society that's taking a lot of energy and we're not losing focus out of this. let me summarize it another way for a person in my generation. i've lived under two rulers, and the way i see it is that under one we did many things right but we failed to do democracy. then we did democracy for tunisia, we would have been up in the arab world. with ben ali, some things went right, many things went wrong. i'm not here to state what went wrong. all of you know exactly what went wrong. but also we failed to do democracy. this time the society is paying the bill. the economy is not functioning.

there is insecurity. there is a social and economic bill that needs to be paid. now, if we do the political now, if we do the political pros right, in three years when we look back, when the economy comes back to functioning, we would be power to say the bill was paid, but it was worth it. you have to achieve what was lacking to our society, which is establishment of freedom, human rights and democracy. but if we fail to do that, then it would not have been worth the hassle, so that's started by refocusing the point from that point of view. it's not to downsize the size of the challenges. in tunisa, the labor is strong. they contribute a lot in the revolution and now, the government is engaging in

dialogue in order to establish a modern development, but not at the cost of regional development or the cost of social justice. and that's why in the government program, we have at least 12 measures. social measures. for example, the number of families that benefit from what we call poverty from $150,000 to $150,000. we raise the amount to 100. of all the social actions of our aim at the very delicate and to segment of society, because we feel we need to do things

urgently and now in order to alleviate the suffering of these people. so -- the other question is -- the free trade agreement -- is economics for, there is a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of respect for the tunisa revolution. we have and the government have dignitaries and prime ministers and presidents of states and ministers of foreign affairs visiting tunisia on a daily basis. almost 30% of the prime minister is reffing these people and these people come to tunisia to congratulate the people or offer help. in the past ten months, tunisia

has received more visitors and dignitaries in its history than in the past 50 years and we have a lot of support from many countrie countries. from europe, the united states. the united states has teamed up with tunisia, president obama, we are also reffing a lot of senators, people from the house the administration are are visiting and a lot of encouragement and of course, making tuni srsia as a model fo successful democracy. this is very important. this is important to us in the beginning because we have concern and this is important for the world. because it's in the interest of

the united states to see. it's such an important thing. it's the key to many of the problems towards stability, towards peace. that's why today when we talk with these countries, we don't feel really any pressure. honestly speaking. as you said, that the only message we get, what can we do for r you so that you succeed? and the only focus is not on regional issues. it's on domestic issues and how to make this model work and succeed. our common goals, the u.s., europe and other partners and we're welcoming these countries and these companies to come and help us. together in building these democracies and i think that's the best way forward for us all, not just for our countries, you

know. the other imperatives is faith is a complete disaster. there is no seminar. that said what happened if all these revolutions fail? it's a nightmare. for the countries and for the world. so there is a concerted effort and we feel it so that we succeed. so there is no -- to economics or things that come with conditions and any ways, things have changed. you don't have dictators anymore. you don't have regimes that are complacent. now, you have to deal with the democracy. you have to convince the people. even the governments have not free to take any position or to do what -- it's not the best. you know, if there are things that are offered that are not in the national interests of this countries, these countries will refuse and will not be able to

do and if the governments accept something against the people's interest, they will lose the next election. because the people are watching. it's not as easy as it used to be. it's a new equation that you know, we have to deal with. that you have to deal with. now, as far as the free trade agreement is concerned, that's a good sign. i am very cautious about the process it goes through congress, but it needs to go through the constitution of tunisia as well and has to be approved by two parties and we're very confident that we will succeed in meeting the requirements because we have a free trade agreement with europe and with europe, we move into president's status. so we know how to operate. as far as the israel-palestinian conflict is concerned, i would

have the, i would rather have the minister of foreign affairs of tunisia answer your questions, but tunisia operates within the framework of the arab league and did not take any tischtive outside of the arab league. agreements with the u.s., like bahrain, like jordan. i don't think that's the problem and there are no particular policies or options that -- >> thank you. i want to try and bring this to a close. i want to end on making two observe observations. the first is i think in the next

12, 18 months, the big challenge is one that you have raised. how to manage the gap between expectations and delivery. there is almost no model of delivery whether it's on the politics, whether it's on the jobs front, whether it's on making societies more open, that one can imagine will be fast enough to respond to the expectation because sometimes unrealistic. so managing that gap is going to be the big problem because a failure to manage that gap can derail the process. the second observation i have, we're very focused on the short-term. you started talking about the challenge with the median term. is the rest of the world as conscious that what we are talking about is an engagement,

that is a long-term partnership of business? that what we're not talking about is a bit of financial support in year one, free trade agreement now and then you know, we'll move on to the next issue. this is going to be a part to make it work. help support the transformation of societies. this is a 5, 10, 15-year project and in that, rest of the world will need to think not just of the ambition of the engagement, but also whether we are ready. i speak to we, the case of the ifi, like the imf. are we ready to rethink the way we operate in ways that will respond to the needins of very different kind of society over the next 15 years? i think this is a bigger, more ambitious challenge than a sort of quick challenge although it is the need to manage the short-term as well, so i think