each week at this time "american history tv" features an hourlong conversation from c-span's a sunday night interview series "q and a," here's this week's encore "q and a" on "american history tv." >> this week on "q and a" david heidler and jean heidler a husband and wife historian team who have written many books together, the most recent about henry clay, a speaker of the house, a senator and a secretary of state who made numerous runs for the presidency in the early 19th century. >> jean heidler, can you give us a brief synopsis of who henry clay was. >> henry clay was perhaps the most important legislator in our country.

i think that sums up his career. even though he is probably more famous for running for president five times and failing each time. his legislative career defined, not just him, but much of the agenda for the first half of the 19th century for the nation. >> david heidler, how many years was he in the house of representatives and how many years in the senate? >> well, his service in the house stretches from jefferson's administration through monroe's, so he enters madison's administration through monroe's, so he went into the house in 1811. brief interruption to go to ghent and negotiate the treaty of peace for britain for the war of 1812. returned immediately re-elected and served -- and served until his departure for the state

department in 1825 when he went into the adams administration. he doesn't go back into the house after that. he's after that his career's in the senate where, of course, the house is remarkable because of the speakership and the role that he took in shaping that. and the senate is remarkable because he assumed what in essence was the majority leader's role before there was any formal label for that post. >> jean heidler when you look at this picture, henry lucretia clay in your book, what do you see? >> well, i see a sad woman because by that point in her life she was very sad. she had lost all of her daughters, all six of her daughters, by that point. and never really recovered. her oldest son was in an insane asylum where he would die after her death, so -- and one of the

things we do try to do with the book is bring lucretia to life, no one's ever really tried to do that. as far as henry clay's picture in that particular what most people assume is their 50th wedding anniversary picture, is -- he, too, has a sadness about him. sort of a resignation, i think. >> one of the things you noticed in these pictures and you see it a lot in those years, there's not anybody smiling. >> yeah. >> why is that? >> well, one of the things because flash photography was not in, and they had to be pretty still. they didn't like a lot of motion in terms they would actually have braces, you know, freeze people into position, into their posture and they didn't like a lot of facial expressions because it would blur, blur the negative and give you a blurred facial image. lincoln i think there's almost no -- a mild smile.

very rarely do you see teeth. >> henry clay was born where and lived where? >> he was born in hanover county, virginia, just south of here. lived there until his early teens where afterwards he was apprenticed in richmond. after studying law in richmond, virginia, he traveled to kentucky, to join his family, who -- his mother and stepfather and younger siblings had moved to kentucky while he was in richmond. >> there's a painting of iceland, his ohm home in lexing kentucky. where did the term ashland come from? >> the trees. >> ash trees? >> ash trees. the most prominent trees in the property when he bought it and began clear it. so ashland is the name. >> if you could describe him,

his voice, how tall he was. he looks thin in all his pictures. >> he was tall. he was a spare, tall man. resembled in posture and build andrew jackson in that regard. he was also very tall and very spare. he was not handsome by anyone's estimation. but at the same time he had an animated way of speaking that was charismatic. drew people to him. many people say that you can never know clay from portraiture or photographs because to freeze him is to drain all of the vitality and charisma out of him. he had a very wide mouth. as he puts it on his passport, what is it, the chin he describes as not particularly prominent, long nose. translucent blue eyes which no portrait painter ever really attempted to capture because

apparently -- the translucent blueness of his eyes, sort of a pale transparency to them that was also arresting. the voice a deep baritone and very commanding. we mention in the book that daniel webster had the kind of voice that could make water tremble in a tumbler. clay was of that type. a different sort of orator, but extremely effective. >> the constitution says you can't be senator until you are 30. he was senator when was 29. >> he did. he was appointed, well, actually, chosen by the legislature to fill out an unexpired term. and he was about four months shy of his 30th birthday. and they just chose to ignore it. there were a few comments in letters from some of his fellow senators that they thought he was a little below the legal limit. but no one ever raised the issue. >> until later.

then later they use it to attack him as a perjurerer for taking the constitutional oath, his political enemies. that was one of the arrows in their quiver that they drew out against him. >> if i look at the record it shows he was just in the senate a very short time in the first two times one from november of '0 6 to march of 1910 to january 1911. he was member of the house and then speaker. how did he get elected speaker and how many times was he elected speaker of the house? >> he was speaker for virtually all of his periods in the house, except for brief periods when he was not. i think he surrendered that post when he briefly during the -- >> when he left briefly in 1820 to sort of recoup his financial situation. >> yeah. >> he became a lawyer again briefly. >> yeah, he was working for the

bu house. the bank of the united states. clay became speaker by virtue of events that were overtaking the country. and the nature of the incumbency in that period, which was that there wasn't. the turnover in the house was quite remarkable because it was costly to serve in the house. they per diemed these people. clay came into the house that the war with britain were looming, that tensions with britain would boil over and there was a cadre of confederates in the house called the war hogs, who -- for whom clay became the leader. and they are the ones who really engineered the speakership. much to the astonishment of the old head who had been around for a while. they were surprised that the war hogs were so organized that they were able to take the speakership on the first ballot. >> who served in the house of representatives that we could recognize by name with him?

>> john c. calhoun came in at the same time that he did and he's probably the most recognizable figure of that time period. john randolph of virginia, also not as well known today, but certainly probably the most famous person in the house. he was one of the people who was quite disturbed that these youngsters sort of took over the house. >> john randolph was? >> yes, very much so. >> let's stop there and talk about the two duels he was involved in. marshall humphrey -- humphrey marshall, who was he? and john randolph looks like he was quite a character. >> very much so. >> and explain the duel thing. >> it was usually an issue of honor. honor in the sense that reputation would probably be the modern equivalent. that if you allowed yourself to be insulted, and did not defend

yourself, then you would be pushed around for the rest of your life. with clay one of the things that he said when he was in ghent is that young men need to fight a duel just to show that they will do it. and then once they have demonstrated that they will do it, then people will not probably try to push them around as much. and humphrey marshall was a senior person in the kentucky legislature who tried to -- and he was a federalist as well. clay was very much a jeffersonian republican, and they came at each other first for political reasons, but then it became personal. and marshall, again, sort of like randolph saw clay as more of an upstart. >> there's a big difference in the duels in years.

>> very much so. >> one was early. one was late. what was the first one about? >> the first one was about clothes oddly enough. there was a homespun resolution that was passed in the kentucky legislature that was supposed to be a commercial restriction against british-manufactured fabric and so clay even who was pretty dapper began wearing denim suits into the legislature in more than a symbolic show of support for this effort. marshall, on the other hand, said this was all claptrap and took to wearing broadcloth in the finest nature as a way to differentiate himself. and they were arguing about this when one of them called -- well, marshall intimated that clay was lying, and clay spun around, sort of as though he'd been struck.

he was about ten feet away from him and ran at marshall. was restrained. he was windmilling so much he hit somebody in the noggin nearby. and finally this german delegate from one of the counties, heavy german population, stepped in between them and said, boys, boys, don't fight, i'll whip you both. that evening clay wrote, well, actually, he apologized to them and marshall said it is the apology of a paltroon, which is coward. and marshall we say was wrong on both counts. clay was not apologizing and he was not a coward. he had a challenge and they fought the duel. >> was anybody wounded? >> yes, clay was wounded. >> how wounded? >> it meaty part of the thigh, and it wasn't serious.

>> when did he the other duel? >> later. randolph referred to the corrupt bargain in which clay had thrown his support to adams in the election of 1824 and adams had been appointed clay secretary of state. and the jackson people accused both of them of corruption in whatever arrangement they made, though there was certainly nothing illegal about what either one of them did. and in the senate in 1826, randolph alluded to the whole incident but then referred to clay as a black leg which was slang for a card cheat or just a cheater. and when clay heard about that he challenged randolph. after all of their years of sparring with each other, this was going too far to publicly

call him, say that he was dishonest, and so he challenged him, and randolph accepted. >> anybody wounded? >> no one wounded in this one. the first fire that they exchanged, no one was hit. and then they asked for a second which they could do. and clay took very careful aim in that one and actually hit this billowing coat that randolph was wearing and it went through the coat. randolph then raised his pistol in the air and fired in the air saying i do not fire at you, mr. clay. >> is this a book from eater one of you about john randolph? >> no. >> tell us something about him. >> oh, he would be such an interesting -- there's some biographies of him. a lot of his papers went missing, whether they were destroyed after his death. he is a fascinating person. not as influential as some of the more famous people because

he was very eccentric. some would even say almost insane. >> from where? >> who knows. he drank excessively. >> you mean geographically? >> oh, i'm sorry -- >> was he one of the randolphs of vf? >> yes, and very proud of that. very proud of that. >> drank you say. that discovered he was malformed in his genitals. there was no -- there was no beard. he was also high-voiced. it was as though he'd been arrested in preadolescence.

he was fiercely nasty for it. oddly enough the only duel he ever fought was with henry clay despite the fact that clay was very congenial and got along with everybody. he fought two duels and randolph was extremely nasty. but avoided gunplay for almost his entire life. winfield -- the duel that he was challenged to in 1806 by james wilkinson and he said it is beneath me to raise arms with you, intimating that he wasn't a gentleman enough. >> you mentioned putting on the record that henry clay ran for president in '24, in '32, in '40, in '44, and '48. five times. go back to the corrupt bargain and the fact that he was secretary of state, henry clay

was, for how many reasons and why? >> he was secretary of state for four years, for adams four years in office. john quincy adams was a one-term president like his father had been. the corrupt bargain arose out of the fact that in the election of 1824 there were actually four candidates for president. and none of them received a majority. in the electoral college, so it went to the house of representatives, where clay came in fourth in that election, which meant according to the 12th amendment that he would not be one of the ones that would be brought before the house. only the top three would be brought before the house. he was convinced and i think he might have been correct that if he'd made it into the top three, he could have used his influence as speaker to get himself elected, but now he became a king maker because he wasn't in the election, but he was still

speaker, a very powerful speaker, and he did use his influence to have john quincy adams elected. >> you mentioned ghent. where is ghent? >> in belgium. >> treaty of ghent. we hear about it all the time. what is it? >> it ends the war of 1812. and it's an interesting arrangement because it is established on the concept of the status quo antebellum, meaning everything as it was before the war. no territory changed hands. there was no -- there was no resolution of any of the ostensible causes of the war which were free trade sailors' rights, neutral rights for american commercement. impressment is not mentioned in the treaty. everybody was tired of war. britain was tired of war in general. they had just finished their century quarter contest with bonaparte. and they were prepared to stop

fighting wherever they were fighting and regroup. and the americans with able to take advantage of that, creating the idea that in some sense the united states had reclaimed despite very few instances of marshall glory had been able to stave off the mightiest empire in the world. >> who sent henry clay to ghent, and how many other americans were there negotiating? >> james madison was president and so he was appointed by madison. with him in ghent was john quincy adams, who was minister to russia at the time. albert galleyson who had been secretary of the treasury was also sent. james baird of delaware. those were the four primary negotiators. >> and what did he do about it? was he speaker at the time? >> yes, he was speaker. he resigned from congress, from the house.

>> and did he come back after that, to the house, right after that? >> right after. in fact, he was elected to the house of representatives while he was -- while he was still under his diplomatic commission. and people made -- his opponents made something of an issue of that and so they held another election and he won overwhelmingly again. >> this is all from lexington, kentucky, his home. and you mentioned lucretia and this is a book that has her throughout the book and it is unusual, you don't normally read about all that. how often did she come to washington? >> at first she did come frequently. she did not come that first short time that he was in the senate. she did come the second time that he was in the senate, and she came with him when he was first elected to the house. in fact, she was in washington when he received that appointment to go to ghent, and her brother-in-law escorted her and the children back home once the weather -- it was still

winter and so they waited until spring and so she went home. >> go over. she had 11 kids. >> yes. >> go over the fact what happened to those 11 and you mentioned the six daughters. >> yes. >> that died by what age? >> four of them died as children and of two of them, susan and ann, the two older of the oldest of the daughters, they lived to adulthood and married, both of them married and had children of their own. susan died likely she was in new orleans that's where her husband lived and she likely died of either yellow fever or malaria, some tropical disease. she was 22 when she died. >> what about the boys? there were, what, five boys? >> the oldest was theodore. and theodore was -- had an accident when he was a kid and had to be tripanned, meaning that -- pendel, her brother-in-law, was a surgeon,

opened the skull and released the fluid, pressure. took a blow to the head. >> was there anesthetic then? >> yes, they'd use laudanum, that sort of thing. but it's a pretty grotesque procedure nonetheless, and all the family regarded that as the beginning of all the trouble. of course, theodore was an erratic youth who ultimately went crazy. they had to commit him to the insane asylum where he lived until 1870. didn't know any of them after a time and it was very sad, because he was quite lucid for periods early and would implore clay and lucretia to come and get him as though there'd been some mistake made, but a few years that stopped and he was virtually a catatonic case. the other boys were troubled, and they troubled henry and lucretia a great deal because they were bounders. they had drinking problems.

thomas especially was -- had to be bailed out while clay was secreta secretary of state out of the philadelphia jail because he couldn't pay his hotel bill. ashland had the check that clay sent for his hotel years to settle up thomas' account, clay was secretary of state. the exception to the boys is henry. henry jr. was a model kid, disciplined, eager to please, never gave a moment's trouble. and paid for that in a way because clay hovered. he was a loving father, but he was also somewhat -- he liked to be in control. the only time that we've ever found that henry jr. did something against his father's wishes was when he volunteered to go to mexico and fight in the war there and, of course, he was killed. >> and that year was? >> 1847.

>> so, henry clay lived -- 1777 until 1852, he was 75 years old when he died. but before we do more on henry clay, how about the heidlers, how many years have you two been married? >> 29 and counting. >> where do you live today? >> we live in colorado springs, colorado. >> what do you do today? >> i teach at the united states air force academy. been there since 1993. and i'm a professor of history there. >> first -- >> first of the permanent civilian in the history department. in '93 congress had mandated that the military academy particularly west point and the air force academy, hire a certain percentage of their permanent faculty as civilians. no -- not necessarily military experience. for a variety of reasons, and i

was one of those first who came in. now there's 20, 25 and 30% of the faculty there are civilians. >> how many courses do you teach a semester? >> two, usually. two. >> how big are the classes? >> they're very small. that is one of the things that attracted me there. i have not taught a class with over 20 people in years. usually between 10 and 15. >> what's the number now between men and women? >> women, the numbers have increased. i believe it's over 20% now. when i first started, it hovered around 10% to 15% but now i think it's 20%. >> but in henry clay's time that wasn't true. >> no. >> what is your profession? >> i'm a historian, too. i'm an academic. i taught a number of years in maryland and followed her to colorado and taught in the colorado state university system there until the late '90s and we were working on a large project

at the time which was the five volume encyclopedia of the american civil war, and we weighed the workload, the commute i was having to make and decided it would be best for me to devote full time to this and that's what i've done ever since. and we managed to get that project out, write some other books and then, of course, this one, which i don't think we could have done as quickly if i'd been in the classroom. >> no. >> the state schools are a little bit more demanding in terms of class size and numbers. >> when did you leave colorado state university at pueblo? >> about '98, '99. >> '99. >> and how many total books have you two put out? >> 11 or 12. >> and we so about the encyclopedia on the civil war. what else? what other books? >> we've also written on the war of 1812, so we got to know mr. clay a good bit during that project, or those projects. we've written two books. we've written a book on andrew

jackson. our first book together was actually a book that deals with jackson's invasion of florida in 1818. and the constitutional implications of that invasion because it was spanish territory. >> let me divert for a moment. i want to come back to the two of you. there was a speech you talk about in your book that henry clay gave about andrew jackson that you say started the big division between the two of them. tell us more about that. >> well, it was as a result of that invasion. he made the speech in january of 1819. decrying jackson's actions as unconstitutional. >> where did he make the speech and how long was it? >> in the house of representatives. and it went on for several hours. >> was he speaker then? >> yes, he was speaker -- >> he wouldn't be that today. >> from the very moment he became speaker, he began using the process of going into the committee of the whole. which would mean the entire

house was in committee session. and he would simply designate someone to preside over these committee debates so that he could participate. because that was one of his greatest talents was as a public speaker. >> explain the atmosphere on that speech, in that three-hour speech. >> yeah. >> who was in the gallery? >> oh, the place was packed. >> why? >> clay. whenever clay spoke as we say as we assess his legislative career, seeing clay rise from his desk was like seeing a curtain go up on a first-rate theater production. he had all the props. he had a great voice. he had a natural way of speaking. he wasn't deflammatory. tended to be more conversational. he spoke without notes. and never printed text. and he could -- he wove illusions and create ed

metaphorical analyses that were captivated. and sometimes they couldn't gavel the crowds down. in this particular speech he was in fine form. a lot of people thought it was probably one of the most serious mistakes that he ever made in his career. because he made an enemy out of jackson with his speech. and jackson never forgave someone who crossed him. >> what did he say about andrew jackson? >> well, he said that he had violated the united states constitution. because congress had not authorized this military move. not just into foreign territory. but jackson clearly violated his orders by not only -- he was supposed to go down there and chastise seminoles who can had accused of making raids into the united states. he chased a few seminoles but he spent most of the time