when action should have been taken. because i have an e-mail, mr. miller, from a man who appears to be your deputy, mr. ericson, who on may 3, 2011, did issue the interim report and said, here i'm quoting, our purpose in issuing the interim report was to alert gsa to potential waste and abuse so gsa could take steps to avoid future issues. please be advised that the investigation is an going and no personnel action should be taken until you have received the final report. now, with respect to some notion that maybe the officers of the agency or even the administration should have taken

action. is it your view that personnel action could not have been taken until april when the final report was released? or had become known? >> representative norton, i believe the e-mail is dated july 25, 2011. >> it is. but it says on may 3rd. >> well, we gave the interim report on may 3rd to miss johnson and the deputy administrator susan brita. on may 17th, we personally briefed the administrator. and in july 25 -- again, there's the second report. the second report -- >> when was the final report alluded to in this e-mail -- when was that final report? >> the final report. >> received. >> the western region's conference is april 2nd. >> that's my question. nothing could have taken place until that final report.

>> but if i could explain. the e-mail deals with the hats off report as well. that was an employee reward program. and we gave a draft report on the same day in may. >> so does it allude to both or to only one? i want to get on to my next question. >> i believe mr. leads confused the two. >> what does it refer to in terms of a personnel action? >> in terms of personnel action it refers to the western region's conference report. >> that was my question. thank you. precisely my question. no action should be taken until the final report. let me go on to the next question. because i am seriously concerned about whether we have a culture in the western region, whether we have a culture in the gsa. one incident of this kind, one event, one conference of this kind has outraged the public enough. but there were suggestions, mr. miller, in your report that this

was not an anomaly, that similar events or conferences had taken place, that in 2006 and 2008 there had been conferences with fairly lavish catering, that this was not an outliar but rather consistent. are you looking at the conferences of the western region in 2008, in 2006, do we have a culture in the western region that needs closer inspection beyond this particular conference? >> representative norton, we are looking at conferences in region 9. there are many conferences in region 9. there have been western

>> that's the western region. >> no. there is no western region, first of all. of gsa. there are -- >> are we talking about the same thing? i don't want to waste time. >> no. there are ten regions of gsa and the district of columbia which would make it 11. it appears that regions 7, 8, 9 and 10 got together to do a conference and did the conference every two years. they called the conference the western region's conference. as far as i know there is no such thing as an eastern region's conference or southern region's conference. it's only the western region's conference. >> so is there, have you looked at those conferences that were alluded to in your report in 2008, 2006, or if not, do you have any intention to look at those conferences to see whether a culture has developed or was

developing in these regions in the western part of the united states? >> representative norton, we are looking at conferences in region 9 right now. the older western regions conferences will, one, be old. already the 2010 conference is -- >> do you have any notion that there was a culture there that needs to be examined and to be rooted out? that's what i'm really getting at, mr. miller. >> the witnesses, many of the witnesses say that the western regions conference in las vegas was not materially different than the previous western regions conferences, i believe in new orleans, in oklahoma, and at lake tahoe. >> if the gentle lady would yield. we sent 23 additional letters to other agencies. the committee intends on investigating the whole practice of conferences, team building. >> you mean other regions or

agencies. >> no, other agencies. additionally i would like to make the record very clear, since other gsa regions or groups that could make a region, didn't seem to have these conferences the first question under any administration should be why does one need it? the second one that begs the worst question in some ways when i look at new orleans as a location, if you are the western states, who would think that going to new orleans was the logical place to go if in fact as i understand, new orleans is not within any of those groups' regions. so i certainly think as we look at a pattern that apparently began and continued probably through every administration since hoover, that what we want to do is bring it to an end under this administration. i think the gentle lady make as good point and we'll be expansive in unnecessary conference meetings, perhaps

even challenge paid for so they can give them to each other. i thank the gentle lady. >> with that we go to the gentleman from ohio. one of the gentlemen from ohio, mr. turner. >> thank you, mr. chairman. miss johnson, i was fascinated by our opening statement. you said you had been during the clinton administration, returned during the first year of the obama administration but it was not the same gsa you left. i want to agree with you because i believe that when you theft clinton administration and returned after the first year of the obama administration, you would have been joining an administration that had a completely different culture than the clinton administration. a different culture than the bush administration. this is an administration that believe when's government spending is occurring, when taxpayers' dollars are spent that jobs are being created. that was the crux of the stimul stimulus, i voted and many voted against. because the american people actually believe that when taxpayers' dollars are being

spent that debt is being created. now, i have some examples of that spending that gsa was doing. mr. foley, you said you weren't aware that the tuxes were paid for by the taxpayers. this is one of those examples of gsa spending miss johnson under your leadership. includes the conference logo and everyone was given one of these. this is apparently i'm told a black jack dealer's vest so that everybody could feel fast they are in character when they get to the conference. in addition this were given a directory with everybody's picture and they are assigned characters and roles on the page i opened, one is assigned cher, one is assigned sammy davis jr., elvis and celine dion. additional items were give tune the people that were there including then and now book on las vegas, signed by mr. neely himself. thanking them for being there. this was printed in china. the vest was made in china.

they were given other party favors while there, all gsa spending taxpayers' dollars spending. and they were given a coin, a commemorative coin we'll call at gambling chip for this aspect. it's a commemorative coin commemorating the stimulus, again you know, a program that most americans believe did not work. it's celebrating a program that has not created jobs in ohio and that is not -- we have not stine a turnaround in our economy. but the questions that i have is you know, how much did these items cost, the tux, the coin, the book, the participatory directory. and were stimulus dollars used for this. i was talking to brad miller earlier. i appreciate his hard work, and we have under which gsa falls and it would seem to me one we have a problem all of these items are purchased and made from china so we're stimulating china, not the united states.

the second thing is what slush funds exist in gsa that these types of moneys could be moved. it's not just an issue of who approved it. who in the organization would ever have that type of authority to use taxpayers' dollars to buy a black jack dealer's vest with an event logo on it? so one, i want to know from you miss johnson, under you, how is it that something like this gets approved for expenditure, what type of funds were used to buy these things. what is your policy with respect to buying things made in america since all of these things were apparently made elsewhere. including the t-shirts the participants given made in el salvador. also i would like mr. robinson to give us an answer on that he will give us a commitment that he will tell us the source of

these funds that were used to buy these and specifically in gsa's budget how is it that this type of money could be laying around so it could be used in this slush fund manner. this isn't just an approval process, this isn't just someone brazenly violating their authority. this is an issue of money and a budgetary process being available in gsa to be moved when congress has a tremendous amount of priorities and needs in this country, that those moneys should have been applied to in addition to reducing our national deficit annually. miss johnson. >> mr. congressman, i'm just as appalled as you are by those examples of expenditures. when i learned about the extent of them and the nature of them i began disciplinary action, some of which is confidential and i cannot share at this point, i fired the two political people who were in the chain of command to me and i resigned.

>> i think the gentleman, i think you had a slush fund question in there. >> mr. robinson, and also miss johnson, one other thing before we go on. the fact that you continue to say you don't want to interfere with an investigation by not approving a bonus is so outrageous that i think everyone in the room is shocked. not approving a bonus is not interfering with an investigation. mr. robinson will you assure us you will tell us how these moneys are available in gsa so we can on a congressional basis stop it. >> yes. i'm happy to get that information to the committee about the budget where these items were purchased. my understanding from the i.g.'s report is that one of the glaring problems that we had at the time was that the budgets were diffused out into the regions, since then as part of the response to the report we pulled the budgets back into the central office cfo so that there is controlized control over the budgets. >> thank you. we go to the gentleman from virginia. sorry. mr. miller?

>> if i may, i wanted to clarify that on page 11 and 12 of the report we identify those items, we identified the $1,840 for the vests for 19 regional ambassadors to wear and the 6 thousand $325 on the commemorative coins. and as far as we can tell no stimulus money was used, the money was paid on government purchase cards and taken out of the federal building fund building operations. >> just a quick follow-up. so that's $100 apiece for the vest, and the challenge coin looking things are about 20 bucks apiece when those of us who buy them out of our pocket spend less than a dollar apiece. is that roughly right. about $20 apiece, 300 coming to $6300? >> yes. 6325 for the coins, i'd have to

go through the math. i'm not as quick with the math. >> mr. conolly, do you give out challenge coins? >> i haven't done that. >> down at quantico you can buy them have them made with your name on for about a dollar. you got to ask how gsa managed to spend $20 having them made. with that the gentleman is recognized. >> if i could say, i am told i'll get a discount if we have your face on one side and mine on the other. >> that certainly will give great value for its rarity. >> that's what i think. thank you, mr. chairman. mr. chairman, i want to thank you for your opening statement. i think you struck exactly the right note. this isn't an opportunity for partisan exploitation. this is an opportunity for the oversight government reform committee to look at an agency where something went dreadfully wrong. i think mr. chairman you struck the right tone as did the ranking member and i thank you both for the way you began this hearing. mr. miller, you're the inspector

general of gsa. how long have you been in that job? >> congressman, i was confirmed by the senate in july 2005. >> 2005. between 2005 and when miss johnson's office alerted you, were you ever aware of the fact that excess spending and raucous behavior and perhaps inappropriate use of resources was going on in the agency anywhere? >> we always look for that, sir. >> i mean, specifically talking about this kind of conference, because as you pointed out, this is not the first time this happened. happened in new orleans, in other locations. did any one at any point ever bring to your attention or did you discover independently, that this kind of thing was going on so that you could intervene to prevent what sadly came to a crescendo here? >> well, we rely on gsa employees to tell us. we did not have hotline complaints about this

conference. and i do commend the deputy administrator for bringing it to our attention. >> susan brita. >> susan brita. >> she did that at the direction of the administrator, is that correct? is that your understanding? >> it's my understanding. but we have the administrator here. >> i'm just asking you as the i.g. what your understanding was. was your understanding miss brita was acting alone or at the direction ever martha johnson? >> i viewed the deputy administrator as the alter ego of the administrator. >> so the sequence was, though you had been on the job since 2005, the first anybody in the agency alerpted you to this kind of excess, for this kind of occasion, was when susan brita acting miss johnson's behalf alerted you to the fact we think something's wrong here. >> miss brita came to our office in december 2010, and alerted us. we did not get any hotline report on it. >> when were the events in

question? when did they occur? >> october 2010. >> so about a month and a half or so later. >> yes. >> okay. did she indicate to you how she was made aware of these, of this information? >> she said she had heard rumors and heard things, overheard conversations. >> now, your view of this matter if i understand miss johnson correctly, took about nine months, correct? >> we started in earnest when miss brita brought the complaint forward. you do have to understand that there are a lot of documents to go through. part of the problem is that the funds came from different sources as the previous question illustrated. we had to identify funds on purchase cards, in building operation funds, money budgeted to the -- >> so it's a complicated affair. >> it is. when you talk to witnesses, you know, turning over the proverbial stone you find 50 more stones and you never know

what's going to crawl out from under them. >> so it took nine months to be fair, and to go through all of that. >> sure. >> is that correct. miss johnson indicated in her testimony that she was a little surprised it took that long. she also indicated that there were many conversations and meetings between you about this and other matters of course. did you have conversations with the administrator about the length of time it was taking and were you giving her interim reports as to what you were finding? >> i believe we had a few. i also -- she mentioned the regional administrator was appointed in region 9. in august of 2011 i personally briefed the regional administrator about this, shared the interim report, and i advised her to get a handle on the regional commissioner's travel. have the financial officer take a look. >> 25 more seconds. i ask you quickly, maybe the chairman will indulge your

answer. one of the critiques of gsa, too much autonomy for these ten regional offices. and not enough top down management. i wonder briefly if the two of you would address that. >> in light of this incident i would agree there was and therefore there needed to be more central control of the financial structures. yes. >> i agree as well. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> would the gentleman yield. >> absolutely. >> what's the highest ranking, highest paid person in each of these ten areas, in other words, when we talk about decentralized control, are we -- we're talking about relatively large amounts of people in these regions. what would be the highest paid, for example, mr. neely, what was his pay or the person you put in over him in that region, what was their pay? >> i'm sorry, congressman, i don't know. i can certainly see if i can get you that information. >> mr. robertson, would you

know? >> i think the gentleman hit on something which is we appreciate things being centralized but one of the questions is, do we have high ranking high paid civil servants in these regions going every back, because they're not responsible, perhaps we're paying more than we should support responsibility not met. >> my understanding is that in -- i believe all the regions, the regional commissioners are paid more than the regional administrators. >> but more than $100,000? >> significantly. >> i believe both of them are over that number, yes. >> thank you. >> mr. chair. >> yes. the regional commissioners are paid quite a bit. the regional administrator is at the gs-15 level. >> which would put him quite a bit below sas. mr. chaffetz is recognized for five minutes.

>> thank you, mr. chairman. ms. johnson, with whom did you collaborate the development of your testimony submitted? did you collaborate with anybody in the development of your testimony? >> i wrote my testimony, and i discussed it with my lawyer. >> anybody at the white house? >> no. >> anybody within the gsa? >> no. >> question about why not fire mr. neely? you know, he's still being paid by the taxpayers. he's on administrative leave. he's still taking his salary. this is somebody who took a conference with a budget of $250,000 and made it over $800,000, spent $75,000 on a bike building exercise, or rebuilt a grand total of 25 bicycles for $75,000. $2,000 in-room party, yearbook and a souvenir book at a cost of $8,000 to the taxpayer. $6,000 for the stimulus coins. they were given out at one of the two $30,000 parties that were given. keep in mind, there are only 300

people at this. and a top hat program, recognition program, that has fraud. so my question is to the chief of staff, why is he still an employee of the united states government? >> my understanding is that disciplinary action has begun against several individuals involved in planning and executing -- >> why does it take so long? you were given this report in february, correct? >> yes, correct. >> what does it take to actually be fired from the gsa? >> there's a long standing due process that career employees are entitled to, as part of their employment. we've begun that process, among other disciplinary actions for several individuals that were involved in planning and execution of this conference. >> my question is, why did he get a bonus? didn't the president of the united states issue a pay freeze? >> i wasn't part of that decision. >> you're the chief of staff. you're telling me you're not involved in any sort of bonuses. >> i was not involved in that bonus. >> who was? >> the administrator and there's

a performance -- >> ms. johnson, why were you giving out bonuses when the president said there was a pay freeze? >> the senior executives were entitled to bonuses under our -- were entitled to bonuses. i don't believe the pay freeze affected those bonuses. >> would the gentleman yield for just one question? >> as long as it doesn't take some of my time. >> the gentle lady just seemed to say entitled. i thought it was that they were possibly going to be granted. entitlement seems to be a question the gentleman may want to follow up on. >> i apologize. i did not mean entitled. >> oh, i think you did mean entitlement. i think that's the fundamental problem that america gets and that government doesn't get. there are a lot of good federal employees who work hard, they're patriotic and frugal with their money. but when you see this widespread abuse of money, and then you -- you, as the former administrator, said, well, they were entitled to it. that's where there is frustration just steaming out of

our ears. it is totally unacceptable. and for the president of the united states to look the american people in the eye and say well, we've got a pay freeze in place while you're getting bonuses and going on trips is totally unacceptable. tell me about -- let's look at the budget here. if you could put up the budget graphic. is there anything wrong with this number that you see over here, 3.8 $3.8 -- that should b billion spent by the administration. these are outlays in the first three years. is there anything wrong you see with that graphic, please let me know. this is the last three years of the bush administration, the first three years of the obama administration. i'm going to continue on. if you want to get back to me, that would be great. ms. johnson, can you tell me about results.gov, you highlighted as one of the great accomplishments of the gsa. what does it do? >> the results.gov, among other online websites, allows federal government employees, as well as u.s. citizens, to look at and access data about their

government. >> so when i type in www.results.gov, why does it come up blank? >> i don't know, sir. >> mr. robertson, you're the chief of staff. >> i'm unfamiliar with the results.gov website. >> so your -- now, this is the disconnect. you're the chief of staff, she is the former administrator, she cites it as one of just a handful of great accomplishments at the gsa, and you don't even know what it is? >> i believe that the administrator -- the former administrator's reference to data was about data.gov. >> that's not what she said. she said results.gov. i didn't go to it until you highlighted in your testimony, and i would appreciate the gsa getting back to us. i think that's terribly unacceptable. location solvers. my understanding, mr. robertson, is that the gsa employees people that are full-time planning coordinators, is that correct? >> that's my understanding, yes. >> okay. so in this particular instance, location solvers is hired, and

they were rewarded a $12,000 finder fee. why are we hiring full-time people to be party planners only to go out and hire a service that then gets a $12,000 commission? don't you think they would have given that commission back to the american taxpayers if we had done this directly? >> and i -- i do not understand that action either. i -- that was one of the outline -- >> i struggle to figure out what you do understand and what you do know. you're the chief of staff. we expect you to understand these things. i yield back, mr. chair. >> thank the gentleman. we recognize the gentleman from kentucky, mr. yarmuth, for five minutes. >> thank you. i would also like to commend you on this hearing and your opening remarks and the ranking member, as well. this is i think a very constructive hearing. i want to express my outrage at the subject under investigation, not just for myself, but on behalf of the 13,000 current and retired federal employees in my district. because as mr. chaffetz said, we

have many, many very responsible public employees, federal employees, who i know are embarrassed by association because of these instances. i have a question about this whole idea of conferences and the extent to which this practice may be common, not just in gsa, but across government. are there -- we already said this is not something that is held in every region, this type of conference. but do you have any idea of the number of conferences kind of internal conferences, that are held throughout the gsa organization? ms. johnson or mr. robertson? >> i don't have a good sense of the numbers. the numbers of conferences that i attended over my tenure, i can talk about. they included about five internal conferences over 26 months. >> over 26 months. that's a fairly frequent number.

are there guidelines within gsa for conducting conferences? i mean, it's kind of ironic, i think, that you have the agency that's responsible for facilities and at least in this particular case, you had to go to an -- they go to an -- a private facility outside of -- i don't know, that's an example, mr. chairman, of government spending, i guess stimulating the economy, but probably not in the right way if you have federal facilities that my house these -- >> yes, there are various -- there are various policies and rules per diem, for example, how much people can spend when they. yes, there are. >> would there be, for instance, any rules regarding the things that went on here, like, for instance, the hiring of a mind reader, entertainment bling, as we call it, these souvenirs?

are there any guidelines for those types of acquisitions? >> i am not familiar with direct guidelines around mind-readers and commemorative coins. i am aware that our senior executives should be operating under the common sense of no waste and would be preserving their budgets for other things. >> mr. miller, you've been involved in government and -- for quite a long time. are there rules and other agencies that you may be familiar with that are more specific as to the conduct of internal conferences or events? >> i think the rules governing gsa and gsa policy says that they are to plan conferences with the -- with an eye to minimizing costs. and that's from the gsa policy. so in terms of minimizing