so that was the issue at hand for us. in terms of what the state department does he a getting to the issues at hand, the one that i wanted to ask you about was a quote from a columnist last week. here's his question. you can answer it. osama bin laden lived in five houses in pakistan, fathered four children there, kept three wives, had two children born in public hospitals. through it all, the pakistani government did not know one single thing about his where

dltds bts. can this possibly be true, he asks? i don't know what the -- what is your opinion on that? >> mr. royce, on that 17% figure, i would like to just underscore and that projection had already been a work for the bureau -- >> and ambassador, you and i don't really have an argument about that. it's the overall decision by the state department to not live within the constraints put by the congress in terms of the total number of bureaus and the easy way to get around it was not to elevate you to bureau status within the existing -- i just want to explain that. we're good on that. but it's the agency, you know, it's the department that i think needs to play by the rules that

are set out in terms of the constraint. but go ahead here. >> with regard to the issue and we do find it remarkable but we still to this point do not have any evidence that suggests that the pakistani government per se had any knowledge of bin laden's

whereabouts and we have no conclusive evidence that the pakistani government knew where he was. >>. >> let me ask you in africa, let me get your thought here the relationship with al qaeda. after the easter attacks on a number of churches in nigeria, it left dozens of people dead. and islamist fighters have now descended on the northern part

of the country. top leaders of al qaeda's north african branch have been seen in the area reportedly. so i would just ask you, what is the outlook there? i had a muslim governor of a northern nigeria providence tell me that he was very, very concerned with the change in the islam bringing a lot of money with them but there was always from the gold state who would then set up shop and begin expressing a different type of islam and he was concerned with

his security in northern islam. i'd like your insights here. >> thank you very much, sir. we are deeply concerned by what is going on in nigeria. and i would say that whoever is not the principle driver, it is certainly the case that extremism in the north a and nigeria is being expressed in intrareligious strive and there have been a lot of attacks on churches. that is obviously the case. we are deeply concerned about any connections that boca horam which is a cluster of organizations may have in particular with al qaeda and it

seems clear that some of their trade craft, some of their ability to carry out terrorist attacks was learned from aqim. we continue to encourage the nigerian government to engage communities vulnerable to extremist violence and those problems are considerable. >> and the department is going to work through to other relevant agencies and international partners to identify ways that we can erode the capacity of boca horan to carry out the u.n. compound that was bombed and also to prevent attacks against our friends and their interest in nigeria as well. >> well, if i could interject,

the observations that he made to me, as long as you have the importation of religious leaders with the students, according to him he had been in this particular madrosa which was across the street from where he was educated, a very, very different curriculum. if you indoctrine nate and raise young kids with that type of ideology, as long as these schools, some 600 of these schools continues to do that, in pakistan, and now that they are doing it in nigeria and have been doing it for quite a while, you've got to expect problems from the graduating class and you talk a lot about addressing these different factors. but to me it seems that the

brainwashing and indoctrination of this type of ideology so early in life, when you're teaching people to commit jihad and giving them that absolutist view point, which now this particular boca horam wants to -- if education itself is a sin and the goal is simply to indoctrinate and brainwash, without solving that problem, without shutting that down, the rest of it doesn't seem too persuasive to me. our inability to shut down those 600 schools over the last generation is something that is beyond me. it's beyond me why the pakistani government won't do it and my concern today over what's happening in nigeria is the

same. >> if i may sir, the world of islam is profoundly complex and there are groups, individual donors and the like who advocate beliefs that involve a strong anti--western sentiment of the kind that you are describing who are funding activities far from their own homes and this is indeed a major problem. the ability to crowd out or combat extremism, an important extent on the ability of those countries and donors to provide the social goods such as education that will make those schools unattractive. >> all right. but we provided the schools in

pakistan or helped do so. i went and visited some of those schools the last time i went back. those schools have been blown up. all i'm saying is that until those schools are shut down by that government in pakistan and for the united states and certainly for troops in afghanistan for people in southern russia to come from central asia, it's a problem getting exported today and going on in the schools and the ineffect you'll effort to get it shut down. >> if i may, sir, just one more point and that is that we do approach other governments with regularity and intervened and

tell them about individuals who are supporting extremism in ways that lead to violence and the unacceptable outcomes that it brings with them. this is an activity that we embrace in a number of different channels and it's going to keep us busy. and the considerable amount of turn that is going on in that world has led to the kinds of rise in extremism that we have seen in some areas. and we also know that in particular there are socioeconomic grievances in places like northern nigeria that need to be addressed and extremists and i want to just mention the issue thaw raised. i think it's important to recognize that northern mali has

been a troubled area for many years. it's been the traditional haven of al qaeda for a number of years since that group was largely pushed out of the traditional region in algeria and it's a very sparsely populated area and barely under the control of bomaco. the u.s. has invested a number of resources in helping reclaim that sanctuary and extent the writ of the government there. unfortunately, those efforts are at a halt now because of the coup. i would say there's not been a large influx of resources in somalia. what there has been is a rebellion, the latest in a long

series going back over a century and this has disrupted all of our ability to work against that region with the regional partners and in the last few years in that collaboration, we're deeply concerned about the swalgs in mali and working in particular with others in africa to see to it that they return to democracy and return to our collaborative efforts to rid northern malia. >> the profile of many of these extremists are engineers, they are people of middle class background. certainly bin laden is an example of that. the muslim governor i know came up with the radicalism.

we have not stopped these people from indoctrinating kids. and until that is done, the problems will expand. >> mr. benjamin, we need again. it's kind of like groundhog day. we come to the same part of town and discuss the same issues. to my understanding, a foreign terrorist organization has got to do several things to be a terrorist organization and they must threaten the security of the united states or u.s. nationals. in 2004, the mek gave up their

weapons to the united states military. sense that time, name one terrorist act that the mek has committed since 2004. >> it is not our contention that the mek can be -- has committed an act since the group was disarmed. >> there has not been an act of terrorism by the mek against the united states since they gave up their weapons to us. is that right? >> we do not allege that there was such an act. >> do they have the capability today, 2012, to engage in such a terrorism act against the united states? >> we have not come to a

conclusion on that. >> you don't know whether they can -- i mean, you're the guy who is supposed to tell us about terrorism and the world. you don't know whether tek has an ability to commit a terrorist attack against the united states? >> mr. poe, no one has been in to inspector otherwise investigate what is in the camp right now and we also cannot rule out the possibility that the mek may have weaponry elsewhere. >> well, you don't know that. you don't have any evidence that the mek has a stockpile of weapons some place. you have no evidence of that, do you? >> i can't go into the intelligence record on that in this setting. >> well, let me ask you this. since i have seen all of the intelligence that you have furnished this committee, myself, ranking sherman and others, is there any new evidence since the last briefing we got by your department and the cia?

>> and if there is, are we going to get a briefing on this? >> sir, we'd certainly be happy to entertain a request for another briefing from the intelligence committee. i think it's safe to say that there is always intelligence coming in and frankly i don't know what exactly was in the briefing that you got which was quite some time ago. this is a dlib bra tif process and we are working hard on it and we are not finished. but i do want to emphasize that as the secretary has said, given the ongoing efforts of the closure of the camp, the mek's main paramilitary base will be a factor regarding the mek status. >> last year in may when you were here you told me that the

state department was going to, quote, make a decision within six months on whether to continue the designation or de-list them. we are a year later. how much longer is it going to be before you can make a decision? >> well, i certainly regret the fact that while my prediction on that was incorrect. i cannot give you a date certain. as you know, the parties are in court on that as well. we are working as fast as we can and as i said before and as the secretary has said, the closing of the camp will be a key factor in any desession. >> without going into any classified information, have you received any new information in the last year about the mek's activities as a foreign organization? >> we have received communication in june and had an

exchange between our attorneys and theirs about this issue. >> have you received any information that they are a foreign terrorist -- it's a specific question. not what you've received from them. have you gotten any information in the last year that the mek, who doesn't have any weapons, is a foreign terrorist organization? >> that goes to the question of intelligence which i just can't discuss. >> i'm requesting the briefing through the appropriate chairman that we have that confidential intelligence. when i was in iraq with other members of the committee, we want wanted to go see camp ashraf. one reason by malaki declined us to let us visit the camp ashraf

was because the united states continues to put them on the foreign terrorist organization. is the united states succumbing to the keep them on the fdo organization list? >> absolutely not. >> our decision is entirely going to be ornt merits, and we are not keeping him on the list because of anyone else's concerns or views regarding the group. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. pope. >> thank you, mr. chairman. before i begin, may i ask unanimous consent of my statement be entered into the record? thank you. i just came back from egypt and libya over the break and have some views about what's happening in both those countries. from the united states point of view, does the arab sling and

its outcome so far help or hurt or have no impact on ant anti-terrorism policy. >> it's an excellent question, sir. let me frame it this way. the arab spring and arab awakening presents everyone who opposes extreme imwithin an extraordinary opportunity. and that is to build the democracies in those countries, countries where people were denied their legitimate rights to build the kinds of democracies that would provide a place where people could express their dissent without turning to violence, where people would have a stake in the society without turning to violence. >> i understand that. are the transitional governments in both libya, egypt and tunisia for that matter, do you find cooperation is about the same,

improcedured or actually degraded? >> i would say that in the case of tunisia, it's undoubtedly improved, significantly. and in fact, my office will be conducting programs under the anti-terrorism assistance program there. there's no question there's been an improvement. i would say that we have good but decent relationship on counter terrorism with libya and our counter terrorism cooperation continues with egypt which is obviously a nation going through considerable -- major events. but we continue to work closely with them, and we are optimistic that that cooperation will continue into the future. >> thank you, mr. ambassador. with respect to pakistan, i have two questions, one is, first of all, is the united states government satisfied that after the tragic incident on the

border that we're back on track in terms of cooperation and collaboration with respect to counter terrorism? >> as secretary clinton said, this is eye complex relationship we have with pakistan, and there's no question that there has been something of a pause, if you will, caused by the tragic incident. we are hopeful now that pakistani parliament has concluded its deliberations, that we can continue to build the relationship and continue to get over the tensions of the past. we know this won't be easy, there are a lot contentious issues, we believe we're going again in the right direction. >> are they cooperating? >> on a number issues, they certainly are. >> on say 12th, you mentioned the parliament, april 12th, pakistan's parliament unanimously demanded the end of

all u.s. ground strikes in pakistani territory. what's the reaction of the united states government to that, an if they're cooperating with us, that seems to fly in the face of cooperation. >> well, we're still studying the resolution that the pakistani parliament passed, and we are engaging in talks with the government to see what the implications of that are. and, of course, this is a program that we don't discuss in public, so i'm afraid we can't go beyond that. >> well, without discussing the program, let's just discuss the policy. when with another legislative body unanimously does something that would suggest that certainly 59 least in the legislative side of that government they've taken a pretty firm position of noncooperation, it's not a classified matter that the

united states has deployed drones both in pakistan and across the border. should the congress of the united states not read into that a resolve to end cooperation at least with respect to the deployment of that technology without getting into the deployment of that technology? >> my own views, sir is that the important thing to do is to allow us to have our conversations with the pakistani government. and to see how it wishes to act on the basis of a resolution, which i believe is nonbinding. >> mr. chairman, i know my time has ended, i think this is an important development, and i understand the diplomatic niceties being express here by ambassador benjamin, i would simply say for the record that i

think this is a gray matter, and i think while the ambassador pleads for patience, and he deserves patience, patience is wearing thin, i think, in the congress on both sides the aisle on this matter. with that, i thank the chair for this time. >> thank you, mr. conway. i have one last question for the ambassador. just going through your testimony last year before the committee, we continue to see a strong flow of new recruits into many of the most dangerous terrorist organizations. i was going to ask you that strong flow is still in a state of play. what do you see. >> it's hard to measure the flow of recruits, but we have a strong sense that in many different parts of the world the terrorist groups are indeed

gaining strength. this is certainly the case in yemen, where a qap output in the arabian peninsula now holds territories in my statement, and where it has picked up membership. we have seen that, what is going on admittedly not in a qar situation, but that group has grown in strength. we believe the qim has also probably added some recruits to its ranks. the exception is probably al qaeda core in the federal administered tribal areas. that group is in, particularly difficult circumstances as i think is well known to this subcommittee. but i -- i believe that our work

in strategic counter terrorism, and particularly encountering violent extremism is as essential as ever, precisely because many of the peaks of this movement have been cut off and don't threaten us in the way they did before this there remains a large number of people out there who are are committed to violence against the united states, it's values and friends. and that's why i believe that we need to do what we can to cut o the flow recruits to these organizations. >> one of the areas where counter terrorism has been effective is with the philippines. do you see a continued joint special operations task force, philippines, do you see that continuing as it has? >> sir, i think that's a question best for the department of defense, but i would certainly agree with you that both on the military side and on

the civilian side we've had very good results in the philippines. and i think it demonstrates the kind of advances you can make with the robust capacity building effort and robust training between our military and others. and when i look around the region in particular, in southeast asia, i think that we have a strong model of what you can do with robust engagement in these countries, whether it's the philippines, indonesia or others. i would commend that to the attention of the committee. >> thank you very much ambassador, and thank you for your testimony here today. we stand journed.