a -- what their adjusted -- modified adjusted gross income is, and whether they're an active participant in an employer plan. you'll see in my testimony, i have two pages worth of charts that talk about who can and can't make contributions. before you didn't have that. and everyone could go in, and the banks -- the banks could say, come on in. and we'll set up your i.r.a. that's the difference. that's the difference now. >> thank you. mr. chairman, could i yield the balance of my time to the gentleman from oregon? >> yes. >> i just wanted -- >> there's only 30 seconds left, but you'll get your own time in just a few minutes. >> then i'll wait. thank you. >> i yield back. >> mr. paulson is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. we've had a lot of good discussion. i actually appreciated the testimony and the hearing. one thing we vice president

haven't talked about are e somes, programs that allow workers to cumulate substantial amounts of retirement savings as opposed to other retirement plans. there are studies that show that the value of the retirement accounts of an employee that works for let's say an s-esop, would average $100,000 in 2008. and you compare that to only a $45,000 average with an average 401(k) account. so i think these statistics definitely show that esops have been tremendously successful when it comes to workers saving for retirement. and mr. sweetnam, if i could ask you, should congress make sure we protect esops as successful savings retirement vehicles, and also attempt to simplify the defined contribution retirement system, as well? >> when we looked at the retirement simplification, when i was part of the treasury

department, we thought that the esops were perfectly fine. and we didn't -- we didn't try to modify them at all. and i -- you know, under my personal thoughts are, you know, i've dealt with the -- with esops and fsops over my career, and they provided very good benefits for people. so i think that, you know -- i think one of the things you're hearing from everyone here is that we shouldn't be cutting back on retirement benefits, and esops and s corporation esops are an important benefit. and i think that everybody is fine with continuing on. >> ms. miller, you're nodding your head. should esops be used at that

structure, serve as a model as part of tax reform or just having that encop compass? >> i think it's important to maintain them. i'm not sure i can say they're a model. when you're dealing with an employer and what they should be doing, when it fits a situation, it's a wonderful thing. but it doesn't always fit a situation. so -- >> sure. >> i think it sits alongside other retirement programs. >> good. and let me just ask a question for some of the other panelists. too. there's been some mention of some of the current law, the nondiscrimination rules that apply to 401(k) plans that make sure that lower-income workers also can benefit from these plans. and can you talk a little bit about how these rules work from the perspective of how a tax incentive can help a small business owner afford the contributions that would be required for those type of rules? anyone? >> i can speak to that. i think, you know, most commonly, if you're dealing with a small business who is -- probably their accountant has said go see and so-and-so about

putting in this retirement plan and they've gotten to the point where they're finally making some money, and they're coming to the end of the year, and it's like, oh, wow, i have this, you know, $30,000 sitting there, and i'm going to take it out as a bonus. and i'm going to pay all sorts of income taxes on that money. and so you can show them how if they put in a qualified retirement plan and make a contribution for themselves, and save on that from income tax purposes, they can use some -- or close to all in some cases of that tax savings to make the required contributions for other people. and that way, then you say to them, okay, you can take this bonus home, and you can write out a check to uncle sam for 28 or 31% of it or 36. or you can put in this plan, and give that money to -- you find out the receptionist's name when you go in, and give that money to your employees. and most times, they're very eager to have retirement savings themselves and help other -- their employees save, as well. so that tax incentive, though,

is the key part of it. you have to show them how it can be better used than to just take it home. >> good. anyone else? is. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. mr. bloomenour is recognized. >> thank you, very much, mr. chairman. i apologize. i've been in the budget committee, defending the interests of the ways and means committee. >> thank you for that service. >> it's a pleasure. and i'm sorry that i was not able to be more of a part of this -- i had a chance to review some of the material, and i -- it strikes me as something that would be -- that our time is well spent. with all of the vagaries that are surrounding tax changes, some of the budget pressures, retirement security seems to me to loom very large. and i appreciate advice and admonition from the panel members about looking at the big

picture. about things that encourage employers to provide a range of choices. i know at times it may be bewildering, which is why i have supported the automatic i.r.a. enrollme enrollment. it's why i'm the co sponsor on the esop where it's appropriate, it's very powerful. but i was struck by something mr. john said about the experience in great britain. be careful about tinkering. about taking an already con foufd and confusing system, and with all the best of intentions changing it again. it seems to me that with your help and advice and, mr. chairman, the committee zeroing in on things that truly are refinements, not sea change, i

am willing to explore all sorts of modifications in the tax code, including in some cases raising tax these are things that a lot of people are relying on. these are things that it takes a while for the consumer to be educated. and there are opportunities for a whole host of unyou intended consequences if we are not careful. so i just -- i wanted to express my strong support for the committee working on this for the advice and counsel about refinement.

sorry i wasn't with you more, but i think your contribution is very important. and this hearing, i think is very important. thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. and to another ways and means member who also serves on budget committee, dr. price. >> thank you, very much. and i do apologize for not being here for the entire hearing. i want to thank you for your testimony on what i think is an

incredibly important issue. and i want to hone in and it may have already been discussed, but ask mr. vanderhei and ms. miller if you would, my sense is the small business folks at home, my people i talk to, tell me there are impediments and obstructions into both the employer and the employee being able to contribute to what might be a more open, flexible and i think you called it creative plan, ms. miller. if you had to identify the greatest impediment that the government puts in place to either the employer or the employee for setting up a flexible, responsive retirement plan, what would that be? mr. vanderhei? >> i'll focus on the responsive part of that. one of the major improvements we've had in this the retirement system in this country,

certainly since 2006, is the increase adoption of automatic enrollment and automatic escalation of contributions. for a variety of reasons, a number of employers have adopted a safe harbor approach. this automatic escalation. which unfortunately currently has a maximum cap of 10%. i think if you talk to most financial planners, they would say that in addition to what the employer is probably matching, perhaps 3%, you need, especially for employees start this process late in their careers, something more than just a 10% contribution per year. i think if there were ways for employers to decrease not only the contribution rate from perhaps 3% to 6% or more, but to allow those employees who want to automatically allow their

contributions to escalate over time, to go beyond the 10% -- >> you would increase the cap. >> yes. >> increase the cap. >> mr. president, on that same issue, there's some data in our testimony that shows that when you do that, it's like telling your kid a c is a good enough grade. you'll get a c. you tell him is the a is the grade you want, we'll get closer to an a. and the data we have seen shows that if you set that bar higher, even the people who don't do the automatic escalation, do more. because they see the bar, and they say, oh, that's what i'm supposed to do. >> ms. miller? >> yeah, i think one important point to make here is that auto enrollment isn't as popular with smaller employers as it is with larger ones. and the reason is that it's too easy. it's too easy to trip up and then you get hit with penalties on it. and i think we need to take a look at some issues that would make it easier for small employers to do this kind of

thing without incurring additional expense. and an example is if you are automatically enrolling, then when someone completes their year of service, you sign them up. but the small business, sometimes you forget that that date passes and you didn't do it. and you get to the end of the year, and whoever is doing your retirement plan work says oh, so-and-so should have been enrolled. but if they happen to have only missed a few months, that's okay. you can get them signed up. but if they were out for close to a year, the small business owner, to do this automatic -- this safe harbor correction not only has to put in whatever match they would have made, but they have to put in the automatic enrollment contribution, too. so the employee got them their salary, but they also get the employer money. and it just is -- it's just so much hassle, they just don't want to bother. and that makes no sense. to make the match, yeah, to not have to put the contribution in. also, small business deals with top-heavy rules, where if over 60% of benefits are for key

people, then there's a minimum contribution of 3% of pay, which is fine. but if the owner wants to be nice and let everybody contribute to the plan, even if they haven't had had a year of service in, suddenly they have to make the contribution for everybody, which, as i mentioned, if they're going to be short-term, they really don't want to. so they really are constrained by some of these things that are particularly difficult for small business, and really would be pretty easy to clean up. >> thank you. my sense is there has to be a right balance between this competitive and creative market we want out there, and regulation -- ms. miller, would you say that balance is -- has been struck right now, or are we out of balance? >> we have a -- there's room for improvement. definitely room for improvement. >> great. i think -- would appreciate each of the panelists, if you desire, to follow up on that score, identifying those areas where the regulatory environment is actually less helpful to employers and employees. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, dr. price. again, i want to thank our

panelists for excellent testimony today. some good information was trabz mitted to us, as many good points were made. and with that, this hearing is now adjourned. this weekend on book tv on c-span 2, live coverage from the los angeles times festival of books. coverage starts at 2:00 p.m. eastern, saturday and sunday. saturday at 3:30 p.m., by

gravies john ferrell and richard reeves on dwight d. eisenhower and jfk. 7:30, call in with your questions for steven ross, author of "hollywood left and right, how movie stars shaped american politics." eric alterman and his take on liberals and the cause. and at 5:00, a panel on surveillance and secrets with lori ran dr andrews, an ejake s on. the entire schedule is online at book tv.org. from the colonial era, prohibiti prohibition, to today, drinking, for better or worse, has always been a part of the american landscape. saturday night, live, on american history tv, a history of alcohol in america. watch our simulcast of back story with the american history guy. peter and brian regail with tales of beer and spirits in america. saturday night at 8:00 eastern. part of american history tv this weekend on c-span 3.

when i was embedded in eastern afghanistan, the soldiers started telling me, the u.s. government was wasting tens of billions of dollars on totally mismanaged development and logistics contracts. >> in funding the enemy, he follows the money in afghanistan, and finds corruption from top to bottom, right into the hands of the taliban. >> i was in one meeting where the brigade commander, an incredibly effective guy named colonel mike howard, this is not long after president obama took office. and the state department was out there saying, okay, we're going to give you a whole bunch of development money. you know, it's counterinsurgency. we're going to do this. win their hearts and minds. and colonel howard said don't send anymore money. send me contract offers. i need people. i don't need more money. >> douglas -- sunday night at

8:00 eastern on c-span q & a. and on may 6th, look for our q & a interview with robert caro to coincide "the passage of power," his multivolume biography of the 36th president. after 39 missions, the nasa space shuttle "discovery" today was transferred to the smithsonian and placed on permanent display. the national air and space museum hosted a welcome discovery celebration when the orbiter was moved from the dulles international airport to a smithsonian institution in chantilly, virginia. here's a look at some of today's events with remarks from secretary wayne clou and former astronaut, john glenn. >> good morning. thank you very much. it's a pleasure to be here. now you know why i have one of the best jobs in the world. i even have a general who reports to me. i noticed he didn't choke up, though, when he was introducing

me. i have to work on that. but under jack's leadership, both the museum on the mall and the museum here on the dulles airport grounds are two of the most magnificent museums in the smithsonian group, and so we are so proud of jack and his staff. let's give them a big hand. we are certainly pleased to be here with nasa administrator charles bowlen, and we value our great partnership with nasa and all that brings to us and all to the american people. and i'm proud to be here with our smithsonian regents chair, and many members of the board. i would like to ask the members of the board of regents who are here to stand up, please. paul? and, of course, it's always an honor to see our friend, senator john glenn, who is certainly a supporter of the smithsonian and a legendary pioneer of space travel.

"discovery" is just one of the many latest types of artifacts on display here in the national mall that senator glen used in his personal equation and exploration into space. you can see the fiberglass he was strapped in for g-training, or, and i love this one, the drugstore camera he bought and modified to take on his historic flight, friendship 7. and now this magnificent engineering marvel, "discovery," which will be a centerpiece here. the author, f. scott fitzgerald famously noted, there are no second acts in american lives. senator glen vigorously disproved that notion when he reprized his astronaut role at the age of 77. and now "discovery" begins its own second act as an engine of imagination, education and inspiration. as transportation secretary ray

lahood said on tuesday when it landed, that was a wow moment in american history, as thousands on the american mall and throughout the capital stood and cheered as "discovery" made its final capital stood and cheeres "discovery" made its final flight. in 2009 i had the great pleasure of introducing senator glenn at the j.h. glenn lecture. we were there to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the apollo program. he said something that struck me then. he noted that in 1969 people all over the world said we, we landed on the moon. that united all cultures across our planet. many, of course, if not most of us have some personal connection to the shuttle program and the "discovery". my own brother dan was a nasa employee for 30 years. and he worked on the "discovery" and the shuttle program from its inception. as president of georgia tech was touched when astronauts who were

georgia tech alums brought back flags from space for our archives. nine of them flew on "discovery". two were commanders who are right here, alan and doc. [ applause ] "discovery" and all the space shuttles excelled and bridging culture, the american shuttle astronauts represent ad full spectrum of our diverse society and work alongside counterparts from russia, europe and canada. the powerful message to young people every where, no matter where you are from, with hard work and dedication, by learning math, science and engineering you too might travel to the stars. as "discovery" embarks on its new mission it will continue to teach that lesson. although millions of people will have the chance to see "discovery" here in person, we can reach many more worldwide as we're doing at this moment

through nasa and smithsonian websites. all this week people are sharing their "discovery" photos, comments and videos using flicker, twitter, facebook and youtube and on tuesday participants were able to use something called instagram. 3,000 tweets about spot the shuttle generated 10 million people talking about "discovery". the tweet ups have helped us and nasa bring our science and educational programs to the people of the world. we're especially excited about the "discovery's" potential to help and reach students and inspire young people every where. young people in the audience today we're glad you're with us today. they will grow up to be the next engineers and sign tichts to build the next advanced spacecraft. our scientists who discover a hospitable world today represent the best of that. maybe one of our young visitors

will even be the first astronaut to set foot on such a planet in a distant universe. "discovery" is not a reminder of the power of human ingenuity to solve great problems. it's a challenge to heed the wisdom of "apollo 8" commander, exploration is the essence of the american spirit. let's rekindle that spirit that we remember what we did before and that we can do again. thank you. [ applause ] >> thank you. our next speaker is himself an american icon. at 90 years of age he has served our country in many capacities and has contributed to the space program in many ways. in november he received the highest civilian award bestowed by congress, the congressional

gold medal for his pioneering contributions to space exploration. it is my great privilege to introduce another marine aviator who maid his historic flight to explains 1962 and returned to space 38 years later. ladies and gentlemen, it is my great honor to welcome john glenn. >> thank you. thank you all very much. hear happens it started with the pioneers who first lived in this new land that americans always have had a curious questing nature that has served us well,

what's over the next hill, what's around the next been. in the laboratory if we can learn how to separate out this chemical can we use to it do well whatever. explore they did. and it paid off beyond their wildest dreams. they sent scouts fold by wagon trains that notified the west over almost insurmountable obstacles. sometimes there were losses but they pressed on pap good day's trip for a wagon train was about ten miles as they made the six month journey to oregon or california. now, "discovery" behind me here, "discovery" in orbit could travel that ten miles in just two seconds. albeit at a little higher altitude. meanwhile new science break

throughs were changing our nation. in the airily 1880s railroads replaced wagon trains, gasoline engines brought on automobiles and in just 23 years after the last wagon train the wright brothers flew at kitty hawk in 1903. but for tens of thousands of years people looked up at the blue sky by day and the stars and moon by night. and wondered what was up there. could we ever go up there? what would we do if we could go up there? there seemed, to again, almost insurmountable odds against that ever happening. but we must count ourselves among the most fortunate people of all time to be living when we could realize that age's old dream to finally go up there. as we made suborbital and/or by

all the flight 52 years after kitty hawk. mercury and gemini developed our abilities followed by apollo and neil armstrong's never to be forgotten first-ever footprints on some place other than earth. we transitioned from apollo to a new vehicle, the space shuttle which was intended to broaden opportunities for orbital activities and it certainly did. space shuttle "discovery" is the star. i want has the most extensive record of all the shuttle free-throw shooter. it's 39 missions included a whole bunch of things but it became a science platform for nine flights, a satellite launcher for 12 flights, a telescope repair station, which charlie already mentioned and he was the commander of putting it up there on "discovery" that has literally rewritten the astronomy books for all time. and also served as a plain flat

out truck. it was the first space station delivery truck 13 flights it made to put together the space station that goes over us even today. "discovery" was truly a heavy hauler in construction of the international space station and that station is now doing continuing research with 15 international partners for us in the most unique scientific laboratory ever conceived. the unfortunate decision made 8 1/2 years ago to terminate the shuttle fleet, in my view, prematurely grounded "discovery" and delayed our research but those decisions have been made and we recovered and now we move on with new programs and possibilities unlimited. [ applause ] today we also honor those who

made "discovery" possible. the scientist, engineers who designed this most complex machine ever built, the technicians and dedicated workforce that kept it not only flight worthy, but flight excellent through these many years and the nearly 250 astronauts who flew on "discovery" represented here today by the 15 former "discovery" flight commanders. today "discovery" takes on a new mission. less dynamic, perhaps. but nonetheless important. it will be on display not only as a testament to events of our time, but also as an inspiration to future generations, to be a symbol for our nation of space flight that presents optimism and hope and challenge and leadership and aspiration to explore and to excel. and that