wept to the lodge, i said what does that mean. does he want me to stay or not. bob says i think you should go. you can do better on the outside. >> so they poisoned him against you? >> well, i always thought so, but you've heard more of the tapes than i have. i haven't gone back to hear the tapes. >> not all of the tapes. there are discussions. what i wanted to ask you was what have we missed? what discussions did the president have about watergate that wasn't in the tapes? >> i don't know if stuff from camp david was on tape. >> not all of it. >> some of it was. one of the nights i was up there talking with him, in december of '72, he was talking about

kissinger, and talking just the two of us. he waves to me to go into the hall, meeting in one of the bedrooms. he said the next administration, kissinger is gone. and just vents. and walk back and resume the conversation. if i had any intelligence, i would have realized that place was bugged. there were other times nixon gave clues but i didn't believe he would do that. >> you tell a story, you sent somebody to paris to photograph a woman -- >> get a photograph, published in a french newspaper. ted kennedy dance white gold maria pia, who was in the swinging society of paris. somebody sent a clipping from europe, nixon said to me i want that picture.

we thought teddy kennedy would have been our opponent in '72, and he would have been a tough opponent, i think would have been tough. and we tried through normal ways to do it, couldn't. just didn't turn up on any of the news services or contacted people in paris, couldn't get an answer. so i called a guy in new york by the name of jack o'hara, not jack o'hara -- >> mull kay hee. >> his lawyer, pat o'hara. and said pat, will you go on a plane to paris, get me that picture, which he did. came back, delivered it to the white house. i walked in the oval office, when the president called me in the next time, i walked in and i said i've got something i think you would like to see. i dropped that picture on his desk. he picks it up, swings around with his feet under the table behind his desk and laughs

uproar yusly. that should have been a good clue he didn't want to laugh into the microphone, but it wasn't, i was naive. but we got the picture. never used it, but it was good insurance if we thought we were going to run against him. >> that would have appeared in the newspaper at some point. >> yes. by the way, nixon called in kissinger in that same meeting, said henry, come look at this. and henry looked at it and laughed. henry loved that stuff. >> well, nixon probably was a little jealous that henry could be photographed with starlets around the world. >> yeah, we had those conversations, too. >> i read that some of the vindictive or desired for revenge came out when the

president was drinking. >> uh-huh. >> what was it, he couldn't hold his liquor? >> again, the complicated personality. i don't want to say he couldn't hold his liquor. there were times when i thought nixon came close to going too far with his wine at dinner, sometimes his scotch. he could pretty well control it. he could have a drink or two before dinner. and always a bottle of wine. vintage wine. very good wine that he would save for himself and other people at the table would be left with the drinks. i thought he went too far. there were never a time when i was with him he was not in complete control of his faculties, never dangerous.

but there were two or three phone calls i suspect were listened to when i thought he was over the edge. april 30th, when he fired halderman and he sure sounded one night he called me, i was up sitting, my dad was sick. and he had just come back from russia. so it would have been in 72. my dad had a heart attack, i was in massachusetts. i got a call from the president at 2:00 in the morning and he is incoherent. i couldn't make head nor tail out of what he was saying. he would say something and slur off and it was a long silence. well, i am connected with one telepho telephone. we didn't have cell phones. i went to a neighbor's house, i have to make a phone call, don't ask any questions. it is 2:00 in the morning, i need to get a telephone so i

could get disconnected from nixon, call the white house switchboard. called the switchboard, got minola, the valet, i said something happened to the president. i am connected to him on the phone, but i think he is passed out. get in, see him quick. he was at camp david. she called me back in 20 minutes said he is fine, he is asleep. the next day, the president called me, said he was on heavy doses of sleeping pills, that jet lag had gotten to him, could well be. but there were times when he would call me in the middle of the night, 2:00 in the morning. hope i'm not bothering you, this was awful. is it all right to talk? he would sleep two hours, would wake up, want to do some work. and he would call me. and he did not sound like he had been drinking. but he wasn't as clear with it as he normally was. times he would get up in the night couldn't sleep, i

recognized the phone call was just handling him. >> these were the times when you would not do what he asked you to do? >> yeah, absolutely. >> you've said, i've read it, you said there are hundreds of things, or 100 things he asked you to do that you didn't. >> uh-huh. there were times when i knew couldn't and shouldn't. another a complicated person. >> uh-huh. >> how did you know? >> if i sense it was a middle of the night deals where he was just ranting, i'd let him rant and listen, and you'd agree with him. he wanted me to fire all the people at bureau of labor and statistics one night, he called me. and i called george schultz, i said george, he wants to fire the head of the bureau of labor statistics, and all the people over there, so they're all

against him. george said don't do anything until i'm back. he got on a plane, was in pittsfield, flew back and talked to the president. there were many times i did not do what he said, got the person involved who should stop him, times i didn't and wish i had. there were an awful lot of things he'd ask you to do you knew you couldn't do, couldn't do, shouldn't do. >> you say he didn't know how to unwind? >> didn't know how to unwind. i remember one time after gosh, after the teamsters endorsed nixon, which i arranged in '72, i went out to california to be there for the teamster meeting down the road from san cla amenity. i was there when they endorsed him, front page story the next day. the next morning, he was exuberant. he says let's go for a ride. we go outside into the golf cart, which he then drives with the secret service following, i

was never more nervous in my life because he's driving up and down the roads, here is where kissinger has a house, he is showing me this stuff, he is not a good driver, not paying attention, he was in a golf cart. it was his way of celebrating. that's about as far as i saw nixon go. genuinely taking a moment out to celebrate something. he didn't have the capacity to relax. another time at san clemente, i was there for dinner, just the two of us. so we go up to the upstairs library that looks out over the pacific. he said this is where i brought brez nef, this is where we talked about this. went through the entire conversation with him. that's relaxation for richard nixon. i found it kind of interesting i suppose, but i could have engaged in more stimulating conversation than to relive his negotiations brez nef that took place in this room. nixon was so totally focused, i

don't think the man knew how to wind down, which is why you would get middle of the night calls, which is why he was so intense about everything he did. he didn't know how to cool it. >> recount for us, please, the episode after he learned that george wallace had been shot? he was concerned about bremer. >> we were concerned bremer would turn out to be an ally of a right wing group, or somehow some crazy involvement with us. figured any connection with us the president would be impeached on the spot. so he called me in his office, and this will be in the tapes i suppose. jokingly said well, you should have finished the job. i am kidding. he says this is bad if any of our people have anything to do with this.

he said it would be great if it came from the left. so he said what can we find out about? i sat down at the table in the executive office building and called mark felt, with the fbi. said mark, tell me what you can tell me. this is probably 5:30 at night. it has been three hours since the shooting. and they had his apartment co cordonned off. had a series of phone conversations with mark felt in which the president was sitting pan at that miem, telling me what to say, whispering loudly, i am sure mark must have heard it, relaying all these instructions. find out if there's any literature inside, mark, is there any political literature inside, anybody been in yet. he is saying i don't know if there's report on that. call me back when you find anything. meanwhile, the president said --

this was howard hunt, how about your friend, cia guy, could we get him to go out there and find out what's going on? maybe plant some literature? i said call him. i went back to my office, called him, and said could you do anything, could you find out anything. i said probably too late. and hunt's response was i'm sure they got the place sealed off, i can't get inside unless you can get me inside. i said i'll call you if i need you. i never called back. told the president and we kept waiting all night or not all night, waiting for the next three hours for reports from mark felt, which came either directly to me in the president's office or to me in my office, and then i would call the president and talk. as it turned out, he was -- he had been stalking nixon as well. so there was no political gain or loss, except wallace being on the sidelines was a help to us.

>> nixon was pan at that miemg in your office? >> his office in the ov. he was making gestures, trying to read his lips as i talk to mark felt. must have been five or six conversations like that. >> chuck, this is what i find, i can't understand about the watergate period. i see no evidence he sat with you at any point and said what was hunt doing. he knew hunt was involved. >> sure. he wanted hunt. no, no, go back to the thing that -- ill fated conversation about brookings. turns to halderman, says i want somebody that can do these black bag jobs, do what the fbi needs to do. we need to protect national security. now thought about it later, should have said mr. president, you can't do that out of the white house. and i regret i didn't, but i didn't. i always thought he knew what

was going on because -- and ellsburg, i was sure he approved it because of that conversation in the oval office. i mean, thought ehrlichman must have gotten his okay. turns out he depuidn't. >> after the election in '72, i am surprised nixon didn't have a conversation about hunt and what to do about it. >> had two or three in january. he knew i was involved. then everybody knew i was involved. the question was amnesty. he felt bad, lost his wife. i felt responsible. i didn't know we were paying money until he called me and told me so, which i recorded to

john dean. he was a white head doing an honest investigation. i was never in any of the meetings, coverup meetings if you go back, look at the stuff. i was being set up, you're right. bill bitman, hunt's lawyer came to see me in january. i agreed to see him because hunt asked me to. i was appalled by his approach. it was very heavy handed. and i cut him off. i said look, if you talk to me this way, i cannot help you. if you will just be quiet, i'll tell you what i want to do. as a friend, not to keep anybody quiet or anything else. i don't care about that. just as a friend, he should not go to prison because he was doing what he thought he was being told to do by the white house. so if he did go to prison, i would go to the president and ask for amnesty or pardon or ask

for some relief. you have my personal assurance on that. that's not to hush you up or anything else, but it is only because he's a friend and i brought him in here, i feel responsible. i guess i knew he wasn't testifying -- no, i didn't know if he was testifying. he said plenty that signaled he was volatile if not black mailing us, letting us know we better take care of him. but that wasn't the reason i would talk to the president. i never did talk to the president. however, walking between the west wing and elb one night with ehrlichman, and one other person, there were three of us. may have been ken cole who worked for ehrlichman or may have been bud kroeg. no. i don't know. there were three of us walking along. i turned to ehrlichman, said

john, you know, i'm going to be leaving here. but if you guys allow hunt to go to prison, to get convicted and to take the wrap for this, i am going to come back and talk to the president. i'm going to tell the president -- no, before i leave, i'm going to tell the president i want to be sure he pardons him, before i leave this white house. and ehrlichman didn't say a word to me. i never did it. i did it so ehrlichman would think i was doing it, but i never raised it with the president. later ehrlichman said i had done it. and the president went into a frenzy. that was december when he called me over to the white house, december of '73, and he's sitting up in the lincoln sitting room with all of the tapes out, transcripts in front of him, and he says did i promise clemency for hunt? i said no. are you sure? did i have a conversation with

you in which i promised it? i said no, positive, no. and you may remember this turned out to be one of the charges in watergate, but it did not happen because i didn't ask him. but i told ehrlichman i was going to because i wanted to be able to come back to ehrlichman and get him to help me. i figured i was going to be gone, those guys are going to be on the inside. i wanted to keep my leverage. so when i said something, it wasn't true. but the president and i did talk about these things. talked about liddy, talked about hunt. and in one conversation which is i am sure on the tapes, i said the president said does it get here into the white house. you've heard the tape. >> yeah. i think it is in january. >> january. and i said yes.

he said to halderman and ehrlichman? i said yes. at that point i figured it out pretty well. you probably heard the tape of the 14th, i said to the president, i said you have to get who is responsible for this and get him out of here. i also said in a conversation in march on the phone he should get special counsel and investigate it openly. get the thing out. at that point i really did realize he was in deep danger. >> well, you must -- you knew how that halderman system worked. did you think it was possible $300,000 could go to somebody to undertake an intelligence operation without him knowing? >> no, i had every -- will, i didn't have any question that he approved what went on. but ying anybody was stupid enough to break into democratic national committee, and didn't think halderman would approve

it. >> you think he approved general political intelligence? >> strong or of or higby, hollad was too smart for that. >> why weren't you involved in discussions in political intelligence at that point in the '72 campaign. >> there was a meeting every week of the brain trust of the campaign. then the fellow that came in to replace john connelly, me, halderman and this was sort of the strategy session. the intelligence issue never came up once. and i was not part of the staff

discussions or the staff process of approving it. the only time i heard about it was when hunt came into the office and i have attributed that to the fact that mitchal and i did not get along. >> do you think the president knew you were being set up to take the fall for watergate? >> yeah, i do. i hate to say that because i would like to think that he had as much reflection for me as i did for him. but i think he knew it, i think he had to know it. >> how do you explain that since you described how close you were. >> well, i don't agree with derwin, but that's the survival of the fittest. i was below him on the food chain. if the president is thinking how he is going to save himself, anybody is expandable. >> last two questions.

>> that's not the way i saw it, but i think that's the way he saw it. >> would you tell us the story and you said you tell it in your book about asking, you're in prison, you're with a group of your former colleagues and you ask mcgruter what happened. tell us how that happened. >> well, dean and i were conversing in my room and haliburt and testimony was going on. he had brought there to testify in the trials, so, the three of us were there. and dean and i were talking and i said to john, i said, you know, john, we're all in prison because of watergate. why do you think we broke into the democratic national committee? he said, i don't know. i said, you didn't approve it,

he said, no. >> i never heard of it. very suspicious sits on the bed and we start idle chatter and we're all in prison now and it's all over with paying our price for this. why did we approve the watergate in the first place. why did we decide to go in there for intelligence? he got red in the face and agitated and walked out. and both dean and i just shook our heads because he was the guy, apparently, who gave up the green light. now later he told him the president told him to. that's ridiculous. >> what about mitchell?

>> the way you did about hunt, only more so because he told me once john mitchell want to come here and didn't want this job, i could never turn down mitchell. i could never do anything to hurt mitchell. i think there he really felt a special loyalty that worked differently with me because i was a young guy and career ladder moving up and here's an older man with $500,000 a year law practice in new york and nixon talks him to come down and his wife embarrasses him and he ends up disgraced. >> where were you the day nixon resigned? >> in prison at halliburton. >> how did you feel? >> well, i was relieved that it was over. disappointed because i would have thought he would have taken

his own troops with him if he was going to resign, pardon us. or commute the sentences. hopeful that probably jerry ford would do that. i really felt it. i really felt empthetic because i knew what an incredibly difficult thing that was for him to do. just to stand there and look at people in shame. how hard that would be for a man that proud. >> did he ever talk to you about a pardon for you? >> nope. >> did you see him afterwards? >> oh, yeah. the first week i was home from prison i got a call from him. i had said something negative about kissinger on television. and nixon calls me and it's like

old times and we're just chatting away and he is embulant and got one secretary of state and we've got to support him. i said, you didn't like what i said on television? i think we should let henry -- he was nicely telling me to lay off of henry. i'm sure henry called him. but it got us some real good conversation and that's when he said to me, you're not going to go into this religious business, are you? people in business would love to hire a guy like you. sometimes i'll come out and see you if maybe you'd let me a sunday morning and i said, i'll talk to you about it. but i don't know what i'm going to do yet. and i did go out and spend three hours with him on sunday morning. deliberately, he told him on the phone that i was coming out because i knew he liked sunday morning worship services at the

white house and he wouldn't go to church now and i would conduct a church service for him in his office. and i had got there and his leg was elevated and my wife was sitting in the waiting room. i figured i would be with him half an hour. i was there three hours and i never got to talk about what i wanted to talk about. all he talked about was watergate. his first question to me was, what did you go to prison for, chuck? he said, i told you to do that. i said, yes, i know. that's what i went to prison for. which story i had not told beyond my family, but my wife was laughing because here i go to prissen for the guy doing what he said, spend seven months in prison and he doesn't even know i'm there. he was really shot after he left

office. i saw him again a few more time s when he came to new york and saw him getting back on his feet. and always had a good relationship with him. and he was always very friendly to me. i never really spent much time with him after maybe the first three or four years. i was in new york for something and i called him and he said, come on over. so, we spent an evening together. and that was maybe the early '80s. but i didn't see him much from then until, until the end. talked to him a few times. >> did you feel, were you, when bud probe went back to see the president after he served his time. he felt he should apologize to nixon because he felt he had done something it hurt nixon. you didn't, you felt that the

blame could be shared. >> i didn't apologize to him because, basically, i was doing exactly what he told me to do. and i didn't really think i was involved in watergate and i had given him, turns out the assistant prosecutor told me i was the only one who had done this. i had given the right advice. get rid of the people who did this and hire a special investigator. technically, i left the conspiracy when i did that. but it didn't matter because i had already pled guilty. but i realized if he had taken my advice, he might still be president. so, i didn't feel i owed him an apology, no. >> so, did he disappoint you? >> sure, of course. but i also understood the man. families disappoint each other sometimes, but you're still family. >> thanks for spending time with us today. >> thank you, tim,