they just wait for stuff to break and then send somebody to fix it. in march of 2008, i-95 was shut down in philadelphia for three days because a bridge inspector happened to go to a store to get a cheese steak, happened to look up and saw a gaping hole in i-95 over his head. traffic was backed up baltimore to new york as a result. there is no capital program in the federal government. how can you run a government with no capital program and no idea going into the future of how you're going to spend and plan. this is nonsense way to run this railroad here. >> there aren't many recent examples of where government, republicans and democrats, have come together in washington to make more difficult choices. you have democrats and republicans come together 2001. the last time on a deficit reduction plan was probably under the first president bush in 1990.

and both parties seemed to learn from that, don't go down that road again. >> yeah, but that road got all twisted because they went andrews air base and put together a deal and said here's what we can do, we can get budget reform, two-year budgeting, we can deal with catastrophic health care, there was a lot of stuff, the house members, i don't remember who all was there but they were all republicans. and they made the deal and said we need revenue. and so they went to george the first and said you won't believe what we're asking but if we can do this package we need revenue, and you'll have to help. he said well, that's great because of my pledge to read my lips, this is really fun that you could come and tell me this. they said but we can do it for you. and dole promised that and so did it new. dole came back to us and in a bipartisan vote of 66-33 or something like that, we bought

the package. and it new had voted for it at andrews air base and he came back and went on the floor of the house, in living color and said as a member of the group out there, i voted for that, but as a member now individual i'm voting against it and i hope my republican colleagues will help. and along game newt and army and delay, and the democrats were thrilled, it was the end of george bush, and the beginning of newt. and that's -- >> similar dynamic today. you all, in your commission, were able to get buy-in from democrats and republicans. it had limited success. very limited success in the senate, and-house. how do you build a bipartisan coalition with congress? >> you do it with trust. there is no such thing as trust.

trust is the coin of the realm in the legislative body. that's all i ever did. i didn't want to be you know, anybody, i wanted -- i knew how to do. knew how to amend bills, knew how to construct them, knew how to go to conference, floor debate. i knew that. and there's no trust now. the coin of the realm is trust and there's no trust even among party members. look what's happening now within where one of the leaders of the house sponsored or helped some guy in a primary, knock off another guy that was sitting next to him. i mean, what is that. >> at the same time on the issue of trust probably even less trust from everyone out there in the country how they feel about washington. they can't trust washington now to solve their problems. >> only add on to the senator, one word, saying i think the next word is courage.

you have to have the courage to do the right thing. it appears, i mean, some in our profession, worry so much about keeping their job, whatever's going on in their head, that they are blind to the 15 million plus who don't have one. they are so worried well, if i do this, then this calculation and i have to raise you know, more money or this group is going to line up against me, the country is pulling on you for your service. have some courage, do what's right and the rest will take care of itself f. this is the only thing you can do, you know, that's kind of a personal problem. >> is that -- are they speaking out, are they mobilized, energized? >> i think every survey has shown that democrats, republicans, independents, tea party, libertarian, whatever you want to be, everyone is calling

for compromise. unfortunately, 500 some folks here i think are not listening. they are talking among themselves. and this is our thing and we've got a position and we've got to maintain it. so i mean, the country is calling for compromise. no one can support total gridlock. i never polled gridlock but i don't know what the constituency is for gridlock. so you do it, and people hear it and you make your pitch, you used the word, can that be sold? and you take action. and move on. to the next thing. i think for me that's what this business is. i'm a public servant. this is what i do. >> i recognize this was appointed, not elected. the 1970s we had 10-plus years of corrosive inflation, went to take out a mortgage, 14, 15% was

common. the only thing worse than fixing inflation was not fixing it. and of course in 10 days he took the prime rate up to 20%. really how short our memories. the last time we had unemployment over 10%. and certainly had an impact in the rust belt, companies depending on leverage and debt and borrowing costs, it created a foundation shortly there after for a remarkable recovery, and 30 years of really sustained economic growth. and i look at that moment as probably as good an example of shared sacrifice as i can think of at least in my life time, when everybody was impacted by it. and tried to buy a house it was hard, the only people who at that point benefitted were those who had money and could invest it and get a decent return. all of the rest of us were struggling during that. there is no easy answer here. and it's going to take a group

of people, it's going to take a group of people who have a real sense of their responsibility and their role and lead. >> if you're in a town member of a member of congress trying to sell a plan like this, in six mlts down the road they say easy for you to say, you are travelers insurance, you have a comfortable living, what are you prepared to sacrifice? >> whatever i'm asked. i'm serious about this. we talk about can you sit down and do bipartisan work and bang out a solution that everyone has to hold their nose to but in the end you know is a pretty good framework for moving forward. they have done all of the heavy lifting so whatever they ask of me, my own personal story, why am i here, my father came out of service, started a tiny printing business. it enabled me to be the first person in my family to go to college. and hear i sit. so how do you not feel some

obligation to be involved and do whatever is asked. i certainly feel that way. whatever it is. whatever the compromise is that moves us off where we are, you got to step up and do your part, i think. >> since we are approaching a pretty remarkable moment, we talked about a lot, at the end of this year unlike any one i think that i know in my adult lifetime where so many decisions have to be made in such a concentrated period of time, you have a limited amount of time in order to bring everybody together. and you're almost certain, you will be doing it right after an election when feelings are most raw, so looking at from both sides, both from the position you have now and also from your former position as a senator, how do you -- how would you recommend the congress deal with that right after the election, put it off? to bite the bullet if you can in

the lame duck session in the first month or two of the new term? >> no, i think it's going to be between november 6 and december 31st is going to be chaos in congress. absolute chaos. the fine guys that were defeated, new ones waiting to come in. and you have a flood of as bernanke says a fiscal cliff of the you extend the bush tax situation, $3.8 trillion over 10 years, and then you're going to have to take the payroll tax back. i haven't heard the aarp talk about the sacredness of the payroll tax while they watched it go down. i suppose when they raise to the 6.2 grover will call that a tax increase. then you got sequester coming in and let me tell you, there will be hair and blood and eye balls

all over the floor and they will do something, they will do something. they may do a 6 month extension, you can bet that's the closest thing that will come. then the new president or the old president, whoever is elected, is going to come in in january and say i never knew these figures were this bad. i'm so shocked. that this country is in this unsustainable totally predictable situation of deficit that matches anything in portugal, spain, ireland and italy. and italy only owes 2.6 trillion. we owe 16 trillion. what the hell is a trillion? nobody knows. so a trillion if you spend a buck a second right now you would hit a trillion in 32,500 years. if you spend a million, since the birth of christ a million a day woyrnt be at a trillion. the big bang theory of the universe was 13 billion 600

million years ago and that isn't even close to a trillion. that's where we are. for god sake and you just like rock for brains. but we're -- >> we're at 8% employments, sluggish growth. can you sign on to what president clinton talked about the framework of simpson-bowles but don't implement until you have growth back? >> bill clinton has been the greatest ally for us, he, i know he went to the president and we visited with president obama, i know he said to him for god sake, you did this by executive order and got 11 of the 18 to vote for it. that's 60%. as he said krin on the, wrap my arms around that and take it. and he would have. and he told the president that. >> but would you take now, you're saying delaying the cutbacks until the economy is growing again. >> we put in our proposal.

i say to people when everything fails read the 67-page report. and it uses a word of shared sacrifice. you didn't hear anybody talking about that all day. and uses words like going broke. and so it's not a mystery to americans but you can't get there with just fluffing it. what the hell was your question? i want to be slur i answer that, george. what was it again? speak out there. >> i think you did. let me bring this -- mayor nutter. what did you find you couldn't address, you couldn't cut, you couldn't -- people would absolutely say no way, no how we're not going to do it. >> well, the fact of the matter that every department and agency in the government had to take a cut. i had to cut police services. i did not lay off a police officer. didn't play off a firefighter,

didn't lay off a sanitation worker but we reduced the size of the government by 1600, cut down overtime in the police department 30%. crime kept coming down. unfortunately we lose 15 to 18 officer as month. we were not able to hire as many as i wanted. have not been able to put 18 firefighter. we kept fire deaths at historic lows, so part of it was really more about what we were not going to do while maintaining the core services. i don't know when a recession is going to be over. technically it is over but its after effects. die believe, though, this is not going to last forever and i had to be prepared for growth going forward or people would not stand for massive cuts. certainly in public. they were not going to stand for massive cuts in programs that affect children or senior, our most vulnerable. but where we could cut administratively, become more efficient, get rid of services.

every service we provide has a stitcy. that's why we have three hours of shouting and screaming for all the stuff we were going to do. there are some things that are essential and some things that are good to have. we kept the essentials and cut back on the good to have stuff and i would only say to you, george, i mean i'm vice president of the u.s. conference of mayors. if you want to see leadership in action, democrats and republicans, more than half of my colleagues i have no idea what party they are in because you know, i think there is no democratic or republican way of sweeping the street. we do what we do. that's where you see great leadership and innovation on the ground, all back at home that mayors are providing, again because we have to. there was a guy on the video as we were standing to the side, this is what i say back home. we have to get things done. you get things done by making tough decisions, every mayor's got constituencies that are upset about whatever it is that they are upset about.

some will -- go through their election and some win, some will lose. they are trying to do the right thing to run their city. >> where do you think your own party has fallen short here in washington? >> well, i mean, it didn't help that we didn't hold onto the house. kind of put a -- cramped the style a little bit. i think that you know, forcing more and more votes to take place, i'm not all caught up in the intry cassies of washington. i think the senate where there is a majority, for me to give the senate leaders advice but i mean, i think you have to keep pushing, you have to keep pushing, keep fighting and if folks don't want to take action make them vote. i was a legislator, 14 1/2 years on city council. it was not a d and r thing, again at the local level. but i think putting these ideas

out and staying unified, you can say whatever you want to say about the republican party, yes, i'm a democrat and i'm partisan at least two day as year, but right, wrong or indifferent they seem to stick together. and i think certainly be more helpful and beneficial to the president if the democrats would line up and this is the agenda, what we're trying to get done, these are the reasons and be bold in their actions. >> and mr. fishman, i wonder if you can address one of the things we know as difficult as the debt and deficit problems are and you hear it across, around the world, if we fail to make investments we need to make in education, if we fail to make sure that our infrastructure is world class, is on par with china, on a par with the rest of the world we're not going to be able to have the kind of growth we need in the future and that in the end, growth will also be the biggest driver of reducing

our deficit. can you sell that idea across the business community? >> business people usually pretty good talking about priority, making choices. we live in a world of limited resources and infinite demands so most of these people get the notion of you can't do everything and you have to pick your spot. i don't think that debate, i don't think we had a rich discussion of priorities and choices. we've been trying these last ten years to do everything simultaneously. and you're right, it's all important. everything is important. i loved your numbers on the defense department, thank you, i'm going to use that one. but it falls into choices and priorities. i think the business community gets it, honestly. i think they get it more than most people give us credit for. the other piece of this, i think, that is so important is insurance business, you don't know what you don't know. one of the biggest buyer of

securities has been japanese. they had a tsunami, their energy industry is upside-down. they had to shut down all of their nuclear plants. wouldn't be unreasonable decision for them to make to take those dollars that would have been directed to financial investment and put it into infrastructure along the lines you were describing, their priorities, is that more pressure on the treasury market over the next 5 to 10 years? i don't know but i began to recognize that there is a gio political element of this that we don't control. we can get very wrapped up in the debate about the dollars that we spend but someone's got to lend them to us. back to your question earlier, how much time do we have. what we don't know are the gio political factors that could turn that upside-down. >> could happen in greece in the next four weeks. >> exactly right. and you can see that around the world. so far we've been -- we had good leadership, we've made sound

decisions. this is difficult and the longer we wait the more painful it will be. i'm certain of that. it's just arithmetic. it's not complicated. the longer we wait, the more difficult the consequences will be but there is a factor of what we don't control. i worry about that a lot. i really do. >> judy woodruff brought this up with paul ryan. what would you say richard murdoch who won against dick lugger in indiana says one side has to win here. it's not the time for compromise. >> i was shocked and lugav a dear friend of mine, he was helpful to me in my leadership and to dole. we counted on him because he was such a remarkable brilliant centrist. i believe this gentleman that won said we have to step up the partisanship and that's his hitch. i would cite the case for him of paul wellstone who came to the

u.s. senate when i was there, to stick it in jesse helms i believe it was his earthy phrase, and he got to know jesse and after a year jesse and wellstone were sponsoring legislation together. there is some softening agents in there, but they are not like they were before. the softening agents in the senate are not there, the sharp edge people are there. and then you have a couple leaders you know, you've got harry and mitch and they are both a cupful prize fighters and they love the ring. they are good at it. and they know how to hold their troops. you can tell one of your member you mess around too much with the other guy they are going to make you the chairman of the journal committee. or the ranking member. >> you don't sound that optimistic. do you think that these issues are going to be addressed and solved particularly in the u.s. senate with the rules as they

are right now? >> that things can be soxed with the rules the way they are now. >> basically 60 votes to get anything done. >> the hold, dole and i finally said we're not going to go for that. we didn't have to have a written rule. we said who's got a hold on this piece of legislatetation and the secretary of the senate would say so and so and we'd go to them and say get that thing off of there. well, first i've got to have this. we say we can't give that you, we'll give you that in six months, but get that off of here. we have legislation, we're here to legislate, now a days they are here to do fundraisers, we would have nights where we couldn't get a quorum because they were raising money in detroit or l.a. and now it's ten times worse. but you have to have a discipline and you have to say look, you got to use a little courage, they don't want a hot vote but the filibuster, don't mess with that because that's an

automatic fanny kicking machine. it's going to kick your opponent in the fanny, you're going to love it, then it's going to kick you in the fanny and you're not going to love it but, there is a way to break that easily. it's just three words. bring your cot. in other words, don'ts listen to the threat of a filibuster. just say we're setting up cots in the cloak rooms and we're going to filibuster and we're going to have round the clock, bring your cot. that would shape up a lot of guys. >> mayor nutter, you talked about the importance of making sure that everyone take as cut, that you took cuts. flip the question around. i would think one of the advantages when it worngs the local level, people actually can make the direct connection between the sacrifice they are making, the taxes they are paying, the cute backs and the benefits. what were the benefits that people saw sort of immediately or over a reasonable period of

time. >> i think the first was, and this is maybe a little less tangible, one, they saw that we had a plan. and some parts they might actually agree with and some parts they hey hated. but it was constant communication with the public on a regular basis. this is why we're doing this, this is what this is about. we talked about shared sacrifice, a million times a day to help people understand that this was fair. might not like it but it's fair. and everyone is doing their part. we talked about the fact that we would not compromise on public safety, that we were committed of course to education, that we are still focused on even in the recession was worsening, that we were constantly out trying to get jobs and provide economic opportunity. that we were running this government with integrity. there were some challenges with that in previous administrations. but it was a constant barrage of information, we did do eight town hall meetings. i jokingly said it was a dumb

idea. actually, may not have been the brightest, but we were out there. on a regular basis. so, because our basic philosophy was you have a right to be upset, you have a right to hear from us, all the top level folks, you have a right to let us know what's on your mind and we're going to tell you why we're doing what we're doing. i think when that exercise was over and the next budget came, frankly, things continued to work but we were steadfast in what we were trying to accomplish. i think people got the message that they are not just throwing everything up on the wall to see what sticks. here's the plan, what we're trying to accomplish and we communicated that public safety was not being compromised, that we were focused on our police officers, firefighters, correction officers, ems and the like. the things that people truly cared about. i announced, i mean we have 70 swimming pools in philadelphia. i made that big announcement i

said we would only have ten open. this was in november so i had a little lead time. everybody is upset. it's november. calm down. we struck up a public private partnership, ended up withing 46 open and every summer since all 70 have been open. a hockey foundation stepped up. we have five ice rinks. we can keep two. they said we'll run the other three. this is a time you also have to show that you are out there, you are hustling, working, driving an agenda, getting your private sector involved, getting the philanthropic community involved. we had people sending us money on their own. we got to have these pools open. that kind of stuff. so people want to see action. they want to see leadership. that's the other word. we talked about trust, talked about courage, and in the end you want to run for office, then be a leader. if you have a deep-seated need to be loved and admired, this is

not the business for you. work 18 pet shop somewhere. >> we've got courage, trust, fairness, balance, let me throw out another word, senator simpson. use this in the context of your plan. not just avoiding a catastrophe but painting a picture of what america can look like if a plan like this is implemented and what it's going to mean, just to the average man or woman sitting at home. >> first, just a comment on the mayor. if you're a leader you're taking flack by the ton. and you said if you want to be loved, go somewhere else. but learn to -- i had my skin ripped off a hundred times and it grows back double strength. my dad ran for public office, he was a governor and senator, some guy hollered at him simpson, i

wouldn't vote for you if you were jesus christ. he said if i was jesus christ you wouldn't be in my precinct. an attack unanswered is an attack believed. and furthermore, you are entitled to be called fool, book, bone head but never let them distort who you are. i can see that's the real issue. but i'm an optimist. i believe these guys, they are all talking about what they have to do. i do have hope and i just -- it will come before december 31st because in a room, somewhere, guys like paul and chris will sit down and they will draw -- there is no need to study it any further. you had all of those things and everything is out there. there is nothing hidden as to what you do. you have to have a blend of revenue and you can't cut

spending your way out of this. you can't tax your way out of it and you can't grow your way out of it. we didn't have a single economist who said you could have double digit growth for 20 years you couldn't grow your way out of this so you have to have the blend. if you're in a situation where like coburn working with andy stern, that stereotyping was something. did andy turn on your group, isn't he that commy. then no, coburn. those two guys put together our recommendation what we do with the defense budget. if you can't get that done, and forget the stereotyping and that's what's out there now. you say dick durbin signed on to our report and they say dick durbin? god, what is this? so it's names now. i can tell you that i really feel you're going to see people come together and drop all of the phony stuff. and the bony stuff is i'm not

going to touch medicare, medicaid, social security and defense. those people are fraud. total fraud. and here's one. every cent of revenue last year, everything, excised, sales, everything that the federal government brought in, went to only three programs. medicare, medicaid and social security and we borrowed everything else including the wars and homeland security and culture and infrastructure and research and development. that's where we are. >> back to last august and this relatively unprecedented stalemate over the debt limit last august. we saw the downgrade of the u.s. fiscal position immediately coming out of that. did it seem like that was a moment when the world was watching and where the country was watching and said it's not working. what were the, if any, practical