assaults on our position probably came from the direction of the ambush. so we could pretty well concentrate most of our firepower. then again i did have indirect firepower weapons to help us out. >> what about the fire support? >> yeah, artillery -- and again, one of the guys wounded in my -- in the initial assault was my artillery f.o. but they had backup. their rtos, or their radio telephone operators were also skilled fire support guys. so we did get artillery support, particularly as we knew we were going to turn off the air coming in. we could do some night -- we used to call them night defensive fires to put them around the perimeter.

there was artillery at -- and the lz slips me. it's probably in the book. >> still at falcon. >> yeah, yeah, right. >> tell me about that night. >> i guess about -- the hour slips me, but we were getting these intermittent radio calls from -- we initially thought it was probably the north vietnamese who probably captured some of our equipment and they were using our radios to try to get us out of our relatively secure position back into the ambush area. but we were getting this -- one radio call was fairly consistent, and it was from -- the call sign of that was ghost 46. if you get an opportunity to interview john jennerette, that would be -- because his experience is one that i cannot

imagine. i cannot imagine how -- what that must have been like. but at any rate, we got these calls. i was convinced that there were people still left in the ambush site, and that we needed to do something to try to get support for them or get them out. and at some point we decided we needed to go. so i basically made the decision i was going to go to patrol and go out. i don't know if you interviewed fred or not. said captain, you cannot leave this perimeter and go out on a patrol and try to -- you've got more guys in here that you need to worry about and who's going to -- because the x.o.'s wounded. i've got lieutenants that are down. i've got a number of my key ncos, and i'm going to go out on a rescue mission. not even knowing what's out there.

so klug said i'll do it. he takes a patrol and some stretchers that had been dropped off by the medevac guys who were coming in to go out into the lz. we're assuming we get a single radio call. there's not a lot of folks out there. i don't remember the number, but whatever the number was, we took enough guys to do two-man stretchers. so i would imagine the -- maybe 15 guys went out. we did send a medic with them. his name's daniel torres. they get into the lz, or into the kill zone. so i sergeant klug calls back and says there's not one guy out here. there are a whole lot of guys out here. and we can't bring them all back. so i said, okay, you need to make a decision. he said i can't leave them out here, because some of these guys

are really in bad shape. we need to try to get them back. at that point tully had come in with his company and had brought his medical team, which gave us additional medical support. and he said some of these guys need treatment. i knew that i had missing folks from my unit. so part of that sojourn into that pure hell was looking for "a" company guys. the other guys i didn't -- there was -- there was some concern, but there was more concern about the guys from my company. >> sure. >> and that's reflected in the book. when you really -- when you believe that you have rescued everybody, brought everybody back, and then some months later

you find out that one of the guys is -- was still out there. and i think we went back out there in april. i think it was april. and found parts of his equipment that basically says he never got out. after some investigation, some of the guys in his unit basically thought that they saw him getting on a helicopter because he was wounded. the only reason that we realized that he was missing is we had gotten a letter from his mother that had basically said she hadn't heard from him since december, november/december time frame. so you go back out there and you find this guy. it makes it a tough piece, because you never want to leave

anybody back or at least think that you left them. >> tell me about the next day. >> we got up the next morning, and then went back into the lz. by that time some of the units from second of the 7th were doing the same kind of searching for american bodies. i -- >> did you realize then kind of what had really happened up and down the line? >> right, because we could see. because we walked going back into the kill zone, we walk up the same trail where these guys had just sprung the ambush. lots and lots and lots of wounded, dead folks. and i'm saying lots and lots.

but more than -- more than i'd seen in -- more than i had seen prior or more than i would see in any one given battle. so it was one of the reasons -- you know, i think larry guinn, one of his comments was there's no real glory in war. anybody who's said that has never been in war. because this was -- this was -- what happens when you encounter that much violence in that short period of time and how -- i'm searching for the words here to try and describe the emotion of going in the next day. >> yes. >> because i'm thinking

long-range as i'm going, how do i get these guys? because this is not -- for a lot of these guys, this is not the end of the, you know -- a number of them were scheduled to rotate in december. i mean, but for a lot of the guys, there was going to be a next day. there was going to be another battle, and there was going to be -- i'm thinking how do i motivate these guys and how do i make sure what they're seeing here today will serve to keep them alert? then the question in my mind is how do i, as a company commander, keep them safe? >> what did you tell them? what did you do? >> we talked. we talked about the need for preparedness, the need for not being careless.

and we always have discussions about taking care of your equipment and making sure that everything functions and that you don't -- you don't lose sight of where you are. because the early part of there it was more pacification. we kind of went around and handed out medical stuff. this was a rude awakening for us because up until that time, i think we had -- i had -- up until that time i had one casualty in the company. this guy was killed. he went out of the perimeter and either didn't remember the password or didn't say the password quick enough. and on the way back into the perimeter he was shot.

this is -- i don't know whether you talked to freddie owens yet or not but this was one of freddie's buddies that died in freddie's arms because again -- and i won't say it was carelessness but it was a lapse. a mental lapse. and so we talked an awful lot about that. now, again, the rest of the guys went back, 2nd of the 7th, 1st of the 7th, these guys went back to thanksgiving dinner and whatever. and we got back and my battalion commander said we have another operation and it's -- we weren't back very long before we were out in bong song. but i think a better unit, because i didn't have to tell them, make sure you got your water make sure you got your ammunition, your weapon is ready to fire. you don't need to be smoking on

a trail so these guys can pick you up. you need to make sure that security is out. once burned, you become a better unit. and i think they became a better unit as a result of that battle. >> what was your morale like? >> low. really low. again, i had lost people, and i think all of it. i think if you watch the only time in this -- after the war, the only time i've seen hal moore break down is when he talks about this feeling that he had that was a commander and that he survived and his guys didn't survive. that we all -- he just expressed it a little bit -- with a lot more passion than a number of us. but again, my morale was really low.

first of all, i'm going, what the hell am i doing here? why am i doing this? what is this really all about? again, i'm 25, 26. what do i know about -- what ordained me to be this leader? because i went to the infantry school or whatever, ft. bening or some guy in rotc told me to -- it just makes it -- you start to question your ability to be able to manage this. and then you have to start sitting down and writing these absolutely horrible letters. you know, i regret to inform you that your son died in -- and there was no -- there's a form letter that you can do, but my mother would have been absolutely livid if she'd received a form letter from somebody that said, you know,

the president regrets that your son was killed and whatever. so i used to do those myself. and that's a hard, hard task. >> looking back at albany now, what are your thoughts? what do you see in your mind's eye actually when you think of that now? >> waste. what a waste. what a waste of young people's lives. you know, i don't know in those 17 guys what they might have been, could have been. and again, i know this sounds melodramatic. but who knows that robert hirsch, my radio operator, who was -- had often talked about what i want to do in the future, do i want to go to medical school, do i want -- suppose this was the guy who would go to

medical school, become the next great ben carson, brain surgeon, whatever? those are all things that you think about in hindsight. >> this is what you thought about over the years? >> this is what i thought about over the years. for a number of years until joe wrote this book, until joe and hal wrote this book, i would not, first of all, be able to do this interview, nor would i have been able to sit down and talk to anybody about it. because when you first called me i said, you obviously have the wrong guy because i do not want to talk about what happened to me in vietnam. and in a lot of ways i'm still reluctant to do it. for a lot of the guys that you will interview here -- and this is not a criticism. for a lot of the guys that you will interview here, this is their life. they are locked here.

they are -- i can do this once a year or maybe twice, but after that it is really hard for me to sit down and have discussions. everybody keeps telling me, you need to think about what if you hadn't done -- what about all the guys -- i mean, like last night. i'm in this room with a bunch of guys and their wives and their children and their grandchildren and whatever. not that i have any responsibility for them being there. there's a deity somewhere, he or she had control over whatever. but if i had done something different or just lay there on the ground and not done anything and the whole company -- i mean,

these guys wouldn't be here. and i don't want to make that sound like i had this great power over making it happen. but it is a reality. >> two questions. what's that do for you personally, and were you really actually thinking these things when you see this room full of men last night? >> absolutely. it's still there. i mean, it's still there. i mean, it is -- it is a part of you that you can put away for a little while. when they stare you right in the face and look at you -- i think sometimes they don't -- i haven't been able to successfully communicate this. sometimes i don't think they understand that i'm not the captain anymore. i am not the guy that pulls it all together, that leads them, whatever. i'm just me. >> they still see you that way.

>> oh, absolutely. it is -- >> you don't want that? >> no. >> why? >> because it's an awesome responsibility. it really is. i mean, it is -- i know -- and i know hal moore would never tell you this, but i know he gets tired. i know he gets tired of leading this organization. we're 40 years out. he still is leading this organization. >> 84 years old. >> 84 years old. i would not be surprised if hal moore says tonight, i have had enough. i'm going to do hal moore stuff. and i know he enjoys doing this, but again, at some point you have to step back. i guess a lot of it -- a lot of it is what you -- the other piece of your life. i guess in my case, the other piece of my life, what i do now is so rooted in you've got to

make decisions. sometimes i go home at night, and don't ask me to make a decision about what we're going to do for dinner or where we're going to go to eat. i've done that all day. all i want to do is put my feet up. turn on the western channel. and watch gene autry. that might sound -- i mean -- but it is -- and so when i come to these, when we have these discussions about -- and i always want to be socially correct. and i always want to remember who they are. and i always want to remember what they did. but sometimes i'll look in the faces of these guys and i don't have a clue. and it's not that -- it was so

long ago that i remember. there are some faces that i remember. and i don't know how to xhuk this, but there were 123 guys in this unit. >> yes. if they did what they a normally supposed to do as soldiers, them coming into my conscious is remote. it's like -- and i guess i can relate a lot of my life experiences after the military to the military. when i was principal of a high school, one of the commitments i made was, i wanted to learn the names of all the kids in the school. this is a school of 900. so i know i'm not. but what drives me to do that is

because when i see these guys, i mean, i saw a guy yesterday. i mean, i remember his name. because in the book, i don't remember him because he was a good soldier. and being a good soldier, the company commander doesn't pay attention. it's like in school. we don't pay attention to the average good kid. we look at the ap kids and we give them lots of attention, and we look at the kids on the other end of the spectrum. in the middle -- there's a great book written by a guy who talks about educate case and it's called "the neglected majority." and it is about -- it's so reflective of the world that we live in. those folks who are in the middle and who pay their taxes and vote and do whatever, nobody pays any attention to them. it is the high-flyers and the

low-achievers. and the health and strength of this nation is in that middle group. in my college years, i remember -- i cannot remember the name of the number one graduate from my college. i mean, he probably phi beta kappa, straight "a," whatever. i have no clue. in that middle group, there's a whole lot of guys in that middle group i do remember. maybe it's because i was in the middle group. and maybe on the low end of the middle group, in terms of achievement, accomplishment. i just -- and so i'm kind of circling back to, why do you want to be the leader? i didn't want to be the leader

in school. i think in my relationship with my parents and my brothers and sisters, because i was the second child and there was not a lot of expectation for the second child, at least in my mind. my father tells me that's a misnomer on my part. but i have an older brother who has my father's name, he's a junior, he was a high-flyer, he was an overachiever, and he got lots of attention. my reaction to that was, be a low-flyer and you'll get lots of attention too. so here i am, 67 years old now, and i walk into a room of men that i have not seen in a year, and i'm not sure what their expectations are. >> this is interesting commentary on leadership. and that book and your reputation precedes you.

the leadership qualities you exhibited. if i'm hearing you correctly, now, you just want to be one of the guys. and the burden of leadership, i mean, not necessarily a horrible burden, but i'm hearing a burden of leadership from albany, from this company, and going forth with this company after, is still with you. >> uh-huh. and i guess at some point, maybe i'll get comfortable with it. but i am not comfortable with walking in a room and guys coming up and saying, sign my book. and so what do you -- i mean, what do you say? no, i don't want to sign your book. no, you sign the book and whatever. when you do that -- i guess --

you continue to learn as you grow. when we -- and what really kind of made this or pulled this to some different level for me, when we went out to california for the screening of the movie, i had the pleasure of having some meaningful conversation with sam elliot. and in that conversation i made a mistake. i had a program in my hand and i asked him to sign the program. his personae changed and he basically said to me, i'm here for you guys, not here to be a celebrity. those weren't his exact words. but that was kind of his -- and that's kind of where -- i mean, the guys -- the valuable guys at

this reunion, freddie, fred clue, al montgomery, alan brown. it's not george. you know. they're not here -- >> why do you come back, then? that might be what you say but -- >> yeah. because maybe i need them as much as they need me. >> do they know that? that you need them like they need you? >> no, because i don't think i've gotten -- i don't think i've gotten in touch with my sensitivity to be able to communicate that to the men. and many other pieces. we never have time for meaningful conversation. it is -- for example, tonight when we go to the dinner, we will be overcome by lots of

stuff. so to sit down and have a meaningful conversation with these guys about what you see or how you feel, where you are, whatever, no, i've never done that. the only guy that i've spent, after vietnam, some quality time with, is don adams. and that's just been recent. because we go to football games together, he's a big georgia tech guy, we go down and spend time with him, i stay at his house. but we've never had real dialogue about the war and what we did in the war. i don't think we've reached that comfort level yet. and don is a funny guy. so a lot of our experiences are about funny stuff that happens, safe stuff that doesn't make you vulnerable or sensitive or maybe

my discussion of the sensitivity -- maybe it's probably therapy for me, i don't know. >> are you going to have those conversations? >> at some point. at some point. i mean, i -- it's -- it's a work in progress. as i am a work in progress. >> i guess as we all are. >> as we all are. as we all are. you're watching american history tv where every week we bring you eyewitness accounts of the people and events that have shaped our nation. saturdays at 8:00 a.m., sundays at 3:00 p.m., and mondays at 4:00 a.m. eastern on c-span3. mr. cronon, you are an environmental historian. what does that mean? >> environmental history is a relatively new kind of history that emerged in the 1970s and 1980s which tries to see the

role of nonhuman nature -- plants, animals, diseases, the landscape, geophysical processes -- in american history or in world history. it's not limited to -- >> not just recent history? >> all the way back to the glaciers or however far you want to go back. i think the great insight of environmental history, and mark's book is really a fulfillment of this vision, is that we understand the world better, we understand the past better, if we don't treat human beings in isolation from the rest of creation, from the rest of nature. we're in nature. our lives are dependent upon natural systems and our relationship with other organisms. and many, many historical phenomena aren't fully explicable if you see us isolated from those relationships. >> is it your viewpoint that history in the past has been taught as a series of personalities rather than, say, all of the factors, including

the environment, the topography, the climate? >> well, certainly if you were to talk about the history of history very broadly, you could say that the farther back you go, the more the impulse is to see history in terms of the role of single individuals or great leaders. abraham lincoln told the story of the civil war in terms of one person. but i would say over the last 100 years, really, there's been a greater and greater tendency among professional historians to think about groups of people, institutions, large processes. but often, before environmental history, nonhuman things were not much a part of that. so we could talk about the history of the supreme court, the history of the congress, the history of the standard oil company. but we wouldn't always situate them in their larger natural context. that's been the contribution of environmental historians. this is c-span3 with politics and public affairs programming throughout the week and every weekend, 48 hours of