mr. cronon, you are an environmental historian. what does that mean? >> so i would say environmental history is a relatively new kind of history that emerged in the 1970s and 1980s, which tries to see the role of nonhuman nature. plants, animals, diseases, the landscape, geophysical processes in american history. or in world history. it's not limited to -- >> not just recent history, but -- >> all the way back to the glaciers or however far you want to go back. i think the great insight of

environmental history and mark's book is really a fulfillment of this vision, is that we understand the world better, we understand the past better, if we don't treat human beings in isolation from the rest of creation, from the rest of nature. we are in nature, our lives are dependent upon natural systems. and our relationship with other organisms. and many, many historical phenomena aren't fully explicable if you see us isolated from those relationships. >> is it your viewpoint that history in the past has been taught as a series of personalities and more of events rather than, say, all of the factors, including the environment, the topography, the climate? >> well, i -- certainly if you were to talk about the history of history very broadly, you could say that the farther back you go, the more the impulse is to see history in terms of the role of single individuals, or great leaders, and abraham lincoln told the story of the civil war in terms of one

person. but i would say over the last 100 years, really, there's been a greater and greater tendency among professional historians to think about groups of people, institutions, large processes, but often, before environmental history, nonhuman things were not much a part of that. so we could talk about the history of the supreme court. the history of the congress, the history of the standard oil company. but we wouldn't always situate them in their larger natural context. that's been the contribution of environmental historians. this is c-span 3, with politics and public affairs programming throughout the week and every weekend, 48 hours of people and events telling the american story on american history tv. get our schedules and see past programs at our websites. and you can join in the conversation on social media sites.

i'm bill kelso, i'm the director of the jamestown rediscovery project, archeological project. it's been going on for 18 years. and what i'm going to do is to give you sort of lecturettes at different places about the property, and talk about a little bit about the history of jamestown, a little bit about geography, and a little bit about the history of the project. and then we'll go to each of the sites that are open right now, the trenches. you were promised this is in the trenches, so we're going to get in the trench. at least one of them. and you are on one of the few islands you can be on in the james river. that's one of the reasons it was chosen as the first colony. we're about 35 miles from hampton roads, or the opening to the ocean. the river goes forever into the mountains of virginia and gets different names and different branches. but at richmond, there are water falls. and it's not navigable from here

to there. and that was important, because the colonists found that out. they didn't quite know it in the beginning. that gives us a setting. jamestown. the whole idea was put together by a man you probably never heard of, captain bartholomew gosnold, and he was a privateer, had captured some spanish ships in the late 16th century, and therefore gave all these riches to the queen. so he was, you know, a favored guy. and so he had the idea of establishing a colony after he knew something about the fact that there had been one already tried, at roanoke island off of north carolina, which became famously known as the lost colony, and it's still lost, by the way, no one has been able to find it. find the people. that was in the 1580s.

so this is 20 years later. he felt that there should be a permanent colony. and one attempt he made in 1602 you may have heard of if you're from massachusetts or the new england area, that he set up -- he tried to put in a colony on what we think now is elizabeth isles. there's a town named gosnold up there next to martha's vineyard. lasted six weeks. the indian trading didn't work out the way he thought it would. so he went back, nobody died. but he had the experience of how to navigate over to the new world. he then went back and he had connections. and that's the way it works. still works that way. his -- one of his -- some of his relatives were in -- it was a courtier in the court. so he could get the charter that sir walter rally already had. to colonize in the new world. so he had the legal means to do it. he had another relative who was

one of the richest merchants in england. so he had a way of funding an expedition to virginia, and sew put the scheme together in a little place called otly in otly hall near ipswich in new england. and had a connection through another man who brought in captain john smith, and they all got together and they decided they were going to try and do this colony. formed the virginia company. joint stock venture, one of the earliest, if not the earliest modern corporation was put together. and in the late 1606, they decide to bring three ships, 105 colonists, all men, and -- well, men -- three boys. and left in late december of 1606. well, if you may know, may 13th is where they land on jamestown island. so that's a long time, and that was a problem. and they came in here with a

food deficit right away, because it took too long to get here. they were instructed to go 100 miles from the coast, so that they would be protected from any raids from spanish. and that was the real fear, although they had a treaty in 1604 where they were not supposed to be worried about them. but you can't go -- as i was saying, the falls of the river at richmond, can't go 100 miles. so the fallback was to settle on some island that was strong by nature, is what -- it's a quote. strong by nature means it's surrounded by water, so it could be protected. they also decided, and this is important, they said they chose the island too, because the channel was so close to the shore they could tie the ships. now, the channel -- that ferryboat out there is in the channel. so the conventional wisdom was that they tie the ships there, that's where they're going to have the fort, where the fort was built. and then it washed away, and that's the story i got.

when i came out here the first time in 19 -- 1963. so anyway, the 104 come in, they have a rough summer. rough is an understatement. more than half died in the first summer. and they began to realize what a difficult operation this was going to be. and how really underfunded they were. understaffed, underfunded. that sounds like most nonprofits like ours. but anyway, jamestown has never changed, i guess. so -- but they got through that. then and smith finally leaves, but when he leaves in '69, there's another period that was known as the starving time. 1609, 1610, and the name tells you what happened. there were probably own 60 people left alive out of 215 that -- in 1610. so they pack up, they leave, and so this would not be the first

permanent english settlement, had not at that very moment a new supply group come in, the real resident governor, lord delaware came in with over 100 troops, and they jump-started the operation. and from that point, the colony is going to make it. okay. that's thumbnail history, the earliest years. the reason i'm sticking to the earliest years, most of what we found archaeologically dates to that period, and that seminole event has been a really important thing for our understanding what we found beneath the ground. so if you'll follow me down here, i'll show you where we started and why. a lot of people wonder. where do you start digging? >> when i first came to jamestown, i was so excited because i just read in a footnote in a history book in

ohio, where i'm from, that there was a jamestown. mostly american history, the modern american history, the part that is the european offshoot of american history, begins at plymouth. and the whole story, and we have the thanksgiving and everything. and it's reinforced every year that that's where everything begins. but there was this place in 1607, not 1620, successful attempt to plant a colony. and that's jamestown. but it failed. i mean, that's the impression you get when you read any standard history. and maybe hopefully that's changing. but so when i came out, i said, i want to walk the ground where john smith and pocahantos walked. i came out here and there was a park ranger here. and he said you're going get wet because it's out in the river. gone. and you can't do that. but i got looking around, and i wasn't an archaeologist, but i looked around and i saw a cut through the soil in the bank, not far from here, and it showed

three different layers of soil. and that's important, as i'll show you how we work with that process. there was a pile of clay, you could tell it had been put in, and there was a ridge behind it of clay. under that was a dark black layer of rich dirt, the top layer said civil war, and had some civil war artifacts. then under that, the dark layer, it said colonial, and had pottery sticking out. and under that is indian, and there were stone tools. i said, well, what is this black layer? i said, that looks pretty interesting. and -- we were on at that time a piece of -- it's really not part of the national park. you're on private property. this is owned by preservation virginia, which is then known as the association for the preservation of virginia. and he said, well, we've never had a chance to really look here. he just gave me that look like

hey, maybe something is here. and i said what's that. so put that in the back of my mind, became an archaeologist, started working in virginia, georgia, caribbean, other places. but i always thought, no one has really proved that that fort had washed away. on the horizon was the 400th anniversary of the settlement here. and i thought, wouldn't it be a great thing to do, is to actually find what's being commemorated, 1607, 2007. so i talked to the landowners, preservation of virginia, for ten years, actually. and tried to say, look, here's a plan, let's do this. and i said, i'm sure it's there. you know. and -- i mean, i wrote that out. we're going to find this. and so they agreed in 1993, began digging right where you're standing, right here. now why? why here? well, the -- my theory was, because the church tower that we were standing next to is a 17th century architectural feature.

and i thought, well, one of the documents said that the church was in the midst of the fort. if that's a church, then if i dig about here, between here and that sea wall, i'll come up with a different color soil where upright logs of pallisade, it was clear there was a palisade of a triangular shaped fort would begin to appear. i started by myself. right here. one shovel, one wheel barrow. and i couldn't -- i mean, i couldn't hold back. i wanted to go -- i knew i had a grant, wouldn't kick in for a couple months, and get other people. so i started here. and i -- and the first day, i was digging right under the grass and i came up with a piece of pottery. and he was roped in, and this woman was here with her son watching this guy, pretty skeptical. and she finally said to me, "what are you doing?" like those -- do people know you're out here digging in sacred properties?

and i had that pottery. and i just looked at her and i was pretty manic at the time, because i knew this pottery was old enough to be james fort. and i'm going, "i'm finding james fort" and she sort of backed away with her son. come on, bobby, let's not upset the nice man. i hope she came back with him. that was '94. 1994. and here what we had done, luckily enough, was to dig in -- this place which turned out to be a filled-in cellar of a building that we have replicated above that we found pieces of, by finding where a post had been put in the ground and left a dark circle stain in the soil. and each one of them, they make a pattern. and there was a cellar, and it was full of what -- we found an intact helmet. you can see armor that came out of this pit that's in the exhibit before you go. please see that. and the dates of coins. all this stuff was coming out of here. and it was military enough, it was old enough.

wow, this is james fort. but it took many years to connect all the dots to be able to tell where and how the fort laid out from that point. i wasn't sure if we were on the west side, the east side, inside, outside, you know, for a long time. but we went ahead and announced in 1996 that the fort -- some parts of this fort is here. as it turned out, almost 90% had escaped erosion. and so many people came over here and so many died, their possessions were just scattered and buried in things like a cellar, ditches, wells, it just -- wherever there is a hole in the ground, it got filled with some pretty amazing artifacts. so right now the collection goes over 1.5 million objects have been found. over the 18 years. the way it's done, you open up an area, usually on a ten-foot

square, find a streak that goes through, palisade lines, say okay -- and just follow these things, a square at a time. and then a big area to understand it all. and we'll see a big area when we go at the next stop. all right. let's head to the trenches. if you all would just go up on the hill, and i'll go down on the trenches here. all right. this is probably the largest trench that we have ever opened up at one time. and what you're looking at is the site of a -- the 1608 church. if you are saying to yourself, what church? these orange flags mark the giant post holes that were dug down as much as six feet or

maybe eight, twelve foot between each one of these posts. so if you can begin to imagine a post coming out of these holes here, another, and each one, you can see there's a pattern to where the orange flags are located. so i knew from a description written by a man named william strachy who was the chronicler of the whole operation, in 1610 wrote the church is 24 feet wide and 60 feet long. so the minute we begin to find these enormous post holes and 12-foot centers, it began mathematically to add up. so we -- what we do, as i said, we'll open an area, that is take it down to the grade that has not been disturbed. and this is it right here. and at that point look for outlines of soil that has been dug into before.

and every place that that -- someone dug beneath this subsoil level, this clay, is detectible. if you have one of these. and you scrape down -- really carefully. it's hard to show up, because it's dry. but this is mixed soil right here. there's a little yellow splotches and lighter stuff and darker stuff. but on the sides, it's very uniform. that's never been dug into before. but this has. now, these purple flags mark what do you think? >> graves? >> graves. exactly right. there are four graves here that line up in extreme eastern end of this post hole pattern. and that really tells -- is the telling evidence that said this is the church. so the important people are buried in the chancel. we know also from records, and

there's a continuation -- a continual interplay of what we find in the ground with what's in the records and what's in the records, where can you find in the ground, back and forth. and we know from the time period the church stood was from 1608 to 1616, according to record, there were four people buried. four people that would have had status to be buried here that we know. there's the original cleric reverend hunt could be here. he died very close to the time when the church was put up in 1608. could be. and he could -- i would assume that he would be this guy right here. there was a knight, then two captains that died during that time. we have a plan to actually uncover the remains and see if we can identify these people beginning next spring. i think they should be marked. i mean, the whole church was just -- the location lost. although there was a spanish spy map, and that's what this little sketch is based on, that had an

x. and always thought x might mark the spot, you know. and it does. this is where the church is. just a little off center -- it's in the midst, but not exactly in the center. i had my ambition to walk where john smith and poke hpoke hasn' as as i walked. i got to pocahantas. there is a post hole there and one right here. this makes a rectangular space that would be the chancel. pocahontas marries john rolf in this church in 1614. so i guarantee you i'm standing exactly a little deeper than she was. but this is where pocahontas stood when she got married. they stand right in the chancel, in the center. you've been to weddings. that's kind of, wow, you can actually do that with archaeology. now i want to get you to come

down and we're going to get in the trench down there. and just we'll gather out into here. and we have danny smith here, digging away with dan smith. and he is -- you can tell them what you're doing there, danny. >> okay. if my voice can hold up. so what we're doing is difficult. we're digging into a well. and this well happens to be in the southwest corner of the church. now, it looks like that's just a coincidence, though. but we wanted to make sure that it didn't relate to the church. so thus we dig into it, see if we can find diagnostic or dateable artifacts.

still a 350-year-old well. we're actually widening the hole. the well is actually about -- it was a wooden barrel lined or cask-lined well, about 2 1/2, 3 feet in diameter, we're widening the hole five feet in diameter so we can put a steel casing in here in order to protect this as we go down. we have six more feet to go, probably? six or eight feet to go. even though this doesn't relate to james fort in all likelihood, we'll still investigate this one because we're almost to the bottom anyway. >> okay, thanks. and wells are interesting to archaeologists because we'll probably hit water in another couple feet and the well went four feet below that, and anything that's been continuously wet will survive. organics. we'll probably find a barrel down there. one of the barrels and any organic things. leather, wood, even metal is in better shape beneath the water because it keeps the oxygen away. a lot of oxygen away. we also found seeds, plants in

other wells. in fort wells, they'd be old enough. it's a treasure no matter what. we just can't resist. >> it's amazing that all this is still here to be excavated. >> it is. and nothing substitutes for being here, standing on this soil. do you agree? that's what keeps us going, you know, to come to jamestown and experience it. this is 18 years of digging. we're not finished yet. there are big places inside the fort we haven't even looked at inside this one acre. so archaeologists can go on a long time. and fortunately young people on the staff will be available hopefully. it was pointed out that john smith was located pretty interesting place, and that was the ladies of the apba in 1907 decided to put it there. he's actually right where the

main entrance to the fort would have been. it's kind of eerie, you know, that there would be that decision to put that there, not knowing anything about the fort. not even -- all pretty much convinced the fort wasn't even here. if you want to just sort of come on up to the rope and go into the edges where you can see down in. this is maryann richardson and don wormsley, more staff archaeologists who are working this side now. i mentioned the church was in the midst of the fort. most of the public buildings were in the midst of the fort. there was a storehouse, there was horde guard, where the armor would be kept, where the soldiers would go on duty would suit up. sort of a locker room for the guys. and right next to it in a blacksmith shop site that are

marked by the posts we found more than two dozen sword hilts. found just as one of our most interesting visitors showed up, the queen of england. in may of 2007. she came down. walked down the stairs which are right behind you there and looked at that site. and we're finding all these arms and armor, and i was supposed to take her around one-on-one and make sure she had a reflective moment about the history of jamestown. so, i thought, well, i got to come up with something. i was pretty nervous. so, i said, we're looking at the swords and maryann was actually working on them at the time and said, well, this is the first time that this english equipment has seen the light of day in 400 years. i thought, what if she says i would like to have them back, thank you, it still belongs to us. not really, though. anyway, and what we're doing right now, maryann and don,

maybe you could tell us what you're up to. >> okay. what you're kind of looking at is the footprint for one of the post-and-ground structures that were shown over there at the other part of the site. so, we're just taking down each of these trenches and post holes looking for any kind of diagnostic artifacts that will help us -- give us a good firm date for this building and hopefully what it was used for. >> this is a good example of when it's wet you can see the color changes. >> what items have you found in here? >> let's see. we just pulled out what looks like maybe a little glass petri dish from one of the post holes. it's the fifth complete vessel we've ever found here at jamestown. always fun to find something that's still intact when you're digging for little pieces. that was found. and this post mold was dropped in after they pulled the post for this building, so we're doing some research to see exactly what it was used for. but just a lot of little pieces of pottery.

there's a piece of bone, for instance, sticking out of this wall right here. let's see, i saw a piece of -- yeah. here's a piece of lead shot from the floor. i mean, there's stuff that was just trampled in. you're welcome to, you know, pass it around. >> i'll show you a couple other sites down here. in 1610 when delaware came in, he said he cleansed the town. filled wells. i haven't mentioned the other wells. incredible collections of artifacts and they built two long row houses. we knew they were built by 1614 but we didn't know where they were, outside the fort or whatever, right in here, we're marking them 20 inches above the original evidence. the cobble. and they were built with cobble foundation. wood doesn't go into the ground. but these are buildings that

were built to last and more like what was being built in england. half timber, they were said to be two stories. and this one had six rooms because we found three fireplaces and all the crosses marked graves that we found in here. and this dates to we think 1607, this is a 1610 building it's already being built on top of a burial. there's a record of who died in august, middle of september in 1607 there's a whole rash of these gentlemen, soldiers. there was an older man and younger man buried together. in the same shaft. there's a record of an older man dying in 1607. so, i think we're going to be able to put some labels on all these burials. then there was a burial of a boy, of age 14, we can tell that by the forensic development of the bone. and he had many problems, health problems, one of which was an arrow was in his leg.

the arrow point is still there. he also had -- his entire jaw had abscessed and it was almost gone and a broken collarbone. those remains actually are in an exhibit at the smithsonian. have any of you heard about the written in bone exhibit at the national museum? you have? good. you ought to see that. because it's about what forensic anthropologists can learn from skeletal material, from modern murder cases on back to the boy, and one other person, i mentioned earlier i will talk again about. right over here. as we were looking for the west wall of the fort, we went out here, mathematically it seemed like the fort was bigger than we thought. we started trenching in this area. interesting well, the artifacts