bill kelso, the director of the jamestown rediscovery project, the archaeological project, and senior curator, bly straube, who are going to spend the next hour with us. and taking your phone calls and your comments and questions as well. thank you to both of you for joining us on this beautiful saturday afternoon. we'd like to invite our viewers to be part of the conversation, obviously. here are the numbers to use. if you're in the eastern of central time zone, 202-737-0001. for viewers in mountain pacific zones, 202-737-0002. you can also participate by twitter. our handle is @c-spanhistory. we'll try to read some of those tweets. we'll hear from bill and bly straube. i understand, bly, you have something with you that was discovered on the project today. can you show it to us and tell us what it is? >> yes. wonderful things show up all the time.

today the archaeologists uncovered this wonderful medallion from a german stoneware bottle. made in germany near cologne. it's unique. we don't have one like it so i'll have to do research to figure out who it is depicting. it would have been a bottle that would contain beer or wine, so for alcoholic beverage. >> you had mentioned in the hour long preview, the documentary we just saw, that you had to learn how to read the artifacts 1 1/2 million artifacts you've uncovered in the last 20 years or so. what do you mean by reading it? what's the most important part of that? >> what i meant by that was that i have to learn the context of each of the materials. why they were made, where they were made, what their purpose was, who may have carried them to jamestown, what their use may have been in jamestown.

it may have been different from their original usage in england. and it becomes very complex when you try to put all those stories together, because each material type has a different kind of story to tell. >> we will get to our phone calls in just a moment. bill kelso, let me ask you a basic question about why you chose that spot in 1993 to start digging. why that spot on the james river? >> that's a fairly complex question. there were indications in historical records that one in particular said that the church of the early 17th century was in the middle of the fort, and the one above-ground survivor from jamestown that we have is a brick church tower. so, i thought maybe in that vicinity there could be some remains of the fort.

we also had, bly and others looked at some artifacts that what turned up inadvertently through utility trenches and things like that that seemed old enough, military things. and it was an area that just was not yet explored enough to say that this was where the fort was and conventional wisdom was that the fort had washed away on the western end of the island. we're not quite on the western end. but as it turned out, the fort not only did not wash away, but it's basically all here. >> we have callers waiting with questions and comments for both of you. let's go to jonathan in san diego. go ahead, jonathan. >> caller: good morning, or good afternoon out there. two quick questions. in your taped piece mr. kelso mentioned that jamestown gets second billing if you will to plymouth in the mythology or the

common knowledge of how the new world was colonized and i wonder if you could elaborate on that. and then second, he also mentioned the lost colony in roanoke, which even preceded jamestown. i'm wondering if there's any new work or any new findings down there that's of any interest. and thanks for putting on these type of programs. they're great. >> okay. your first -- the first question was what again? i didn't quite hear it. >> the first question was why does the jamestown settlement in his perception, i guess, quoting you from the -- >> plymouth, yeah, yeah. >> take a second billing to jamestown -- or to plymouth, rather, i'm sorry. >> well, yeah. every year we have thanksgiving right? that just focuses again on plymouth, it's sort of an automatic thing. in the 19th century, the story of the earliest english

settlement began to come from historians out of new england. and there was a lot of focus on that. although you do the math, jamestown was settled 1607, plymouth in 1620. and another thing is -- and then after the american civil war, the histories were also written mostly by the victors who, of course, was the northern states, so that had something to play in it. and also the site, the actual site, was gone whereas the town of plymouth exists. so without that physical evidence that we now have, i think the jamestown story was minute niced. minimized. >> memphis, tennessee, is next -- eugenia, hang on a moment. >> go ahead, bill kelso, and finish your comments. >> well, the lost town, bly could speak to that, there's really exciting things that have been found just in the last few weeks. >> yes, it has to do with a map,

400-year-old map from the -- that has been in the british museum, and it's been recently discovered that there's a patch, very interesting patch, which when back lit was discovered underneath it was the outline of a fortification. and it happens to be in the area where historian jim horn believes the colonists from the lost colony went, the areas to which they went. and we've done some preliminary work there, found some interesting artifacts that looked like they could be 16th century, so this is all brand-new and we're just sort of on the cusp we think some pretty exciting discoveries. >> caller's from memphis next eugenia, go ahead with your comments. >> caller: my husband's ancestors came to jamestown in 1616 and then we see him in elizabeth city, i find him in elizabeth city.

and i wondered exactly where elizabeth city was in reference to jamestown. >> well, it's now where hampton modern hampton is. actually, virginia beach, it was a larger county at one point that took almost all of hampton roads. so it's not far from here, probably 20, 30 miles. >> raleigh, north carolina, next up is betty. go ahead with your comments. >> caller: hi, bly, this isty fitzgerald. ancient planters and we just had dr. earl imes, a curator from raleigh and we're all excited about what's going on the pimlico. and we're excited when you come down, we'll see you in the fall, and i've been coming up there regularly. now, my question was, of course, i have the bellarmine jar, and that's what i'm doing my article on right now,

b-e-l-l-a-r-m-i-n-e, you call it by another name and you also know why we don't celebrate -- well, we know some things that were done by henry adams but we don't use those names. you can't, but i can. why don't you use the word bellarmine jar? >> you want to fill us about betty's comments there. >> sure. we use the term bartman, which means bearded man, because the jugs actually have a face on the neck which has a bearded man. that's the german term. bellarmine is really a collector's term. it actually started in the 17th century. they began calling these jugs bellarmines after cardinal bellarmino who was very upset with king james for the way he was treating the english catholics. and it was done in a sort of satirical way. the dutch and english

protestants started to call the jugs that held alcohol bellarmines as a sort of jab at bellarmino. >> bill kelso, in a recent article you talked about your perception of the urgency to do much more archaeological work there at jamestown over the next 20 years because of the -- because of the rapid decomposition of materials and iron and things like that. how much work is left to be done at jamestown? >> it's indefinite. we have found recently that not only was it a one-acre triangular fort but it was expanded to the east, maybe doubled in size. we spent 19 years looking at this one acre. and archaeology is a little bit slow, but we really haven't been that slow. but just because there's been so much here. and so it may have been originally a four-acre size fort.

and so, you know, do the math there. and then the actual town developed to the east. throughout the time that this was the capital of virginia, almost 100 years, and that has only been just superficially looked at by the national park service archaeologists, so there's no -- i would say there is just an indefinite amount of area to look at in the future, far beyond my career, i would say. >> and your work is complicated there by the fact that that area was used as a civil war fort, fort pocahontas. >> right. yeah. in 1861, the fort pocahontas was built by the confederate army. and it -- by wherever they scooped to get earth to put up bank to protect the guns, the

original -- the original 1607 settlement was being disturbed. however, where they piled the dirt, that was preserved. but so we decided that we needed to see the most preserved part of the fort under the fort, and so we looked archaeologically at the earthworks first because you had to get through that to get to the earliest site. so, that's the reason that we had to remove some of the fort, but i'd say we dismantled it, because we recorded it all. and the artifacts that were in that dirt pile were unbelievable, as a matter of fact, too. now, as far as preservation goes, and the time limit, i'd say we know for one fact that the armor and arms and the metal objects are probably going to be gone. because what we find there's not a whole lot left of them if they're in dirt deposits.

whereas when that confederate earthwork was built, some armor was found that had survived. we can compare the two and see it's in much better shape. there's real metal in the part that was found in 1861 and now, you know, it's almost gone. that's the urgency. plus the burials, too, will be gone. >> let's go back to the callers. dallas, texas, is next. chase, good afternoon. >> caller: thank you. would you comment, sir, of your examination of the forensic remains of those skeletons, the stature of these men. it looks to me like john smith was kind of small. was that exceptional? how big were these guys? thanks. >> well, they tend to be shorter on average. but not a whole lot. and we have just finished studying a large number from a

major burial ground that proves this. we're getting more statistics on that. >> i think that the whole thing about john smith being small, i've searched and searched and have not found any documentation that actually says how tall he was. and i think it all kind of stems from this illustration that was done when he is fighting a native. and the native is towering over him and he's sort of below. and i think it was done on purpose to make it look like david and goliath, that john smith was really super worthy to defeat this native. but i don't really think that he was any shorter than anyone, the average person. >> and the site of the jamestown settlement there is the site -- the church there was where james -- john smith married pocahontas, correct? >> yes. uh-huh. we found that site, started finding it two years ago and excavated it through the end of last year. it's a super important place.

because the wedding is interesting. and it's interesting to know exactly where pocahontas stood at one point which would be right in front of the altar. but the marriage itself ended what was called the first paletine war. so a period of peace went after that because -- as long as paletin lived, that is. it's a very significant find and a significant event. >> the next caller's from note tommy nutoma, kansas. carine, hello. >> caller: thank you. i teach fifth grade history. and i wonder what are most important topics that i should relate to my students. and if you have know suggestions for resources besides the dvd from today, i'd be interested in knowing those suggestions. >> well, that's a huge question. i don't have my bibliography with me.

but i know that there is one volume -- well for fifth grade, i guess it would be a little complicated. but there's a volume of original documents that teachers might want to look at before they talk to their students. it's called "jamestown narratives." and it collected most of the original eyewitness accounts of the first 15 13 to 15 years, these things that were written about jamestown. the most important things, of course, i think really is the park and partially a national park because the first representative assembly met here and the virginia assembly is still meeting since 1619 and also the first africans came to this country in 1619, same date. so our diversity that we have, our diverse nation begins here. and bly, you might speak to other important things. >> yes. well, i think some of the most important discoveries have come up through the archaeology.

and you can get some of that information from our website, the historic jamestown website. we try to put videos of our recent findings and interpretation of the artifacts. a real important thing to get across to children is that we didn't start with a bunch of lazy gentlemen who would rather bowl in the streets than work to sustain the colony. we have found a very completely different picture here. it was a very active, vibrant place. >> bly straube, in our tour through your archaeology lab, i notice a lot of flags from foreign countries. what were they about? >> yes. i placed flags near the ceramics from the different countries where they were produced to show the visitors how diverse and varied. we have materials from turkey, china, portugal, france, italy, germany. so it's not all material from england. this is a very cosmopolitan

world. people are connected and they're collecting the best wherever they can find it. >> calling from nearby hampton, virginia, we say hello to russ. >> caller: hello. first i wanted to say it's wonderful to watch something like this. i taught some online colonial history courses and i live down here as a retired army officer in hampton. dr. kelso mentioned the important date when lord delaware turned back the colonists who were evacuating the failed colony at jamestown. and he -- lord delaware had actually landed at fort algernon on point comfort which is today's fort monroe, which has just become a national monument. my question is to what extent dr. kelso feels that any investigation by the national park service where ft. algernon and later ft. george was, would maybe possibly reveal some of the great findings that he's had at jamestown.

>> well, i don't want to say anyone that it couldn't be found, you know, the actual site, because it's there somewhere. i got to study that. and the area where the fort was first built, algernon, it was sort of on a sandy spit. all this has been built up over the years. and exactly where at ft. lenore you can find it and then, of course, the construction that is going on at ft. monroe has just been astounding. to build the fort and all the buildings and to bring landfill in and so on. it would be complicated, but it's not impossible. i'd be the last one to say it's impossible to find the fort. >> here is rochester, new york. and patricia -- excuse me, david on the line. hi. >> caller: hi, thank you. dr. kelso, i read your book. i recommend it to everybody. it makes archaeology exciting like a detective story and i recommend it to everybody.

>> good. >> caller: quick questions. i have a neighbor whose name is jim rolf, and he claims he's a descendant of john rolf, is this possible? second, did you have anything to do with the movie "the new world" and how accurate do you think it is? thank you. >> okay. there are a lot of direct descendants of pocahontas and john rolf. did you say his name is rolf? i think you did. >> i think he did. >> it's possible he is related. i think it's possible you're related. now, "the new world" yes, we were all a advisers, bly and a were advisers for that. i think it's accurate, the scene, the jamestown they built to me was very accurate. and it gave me for the first time the feeling of -- empathetic feeling of how insecure it was when they were there. now, the events are scrambled, you know, it's not -- it didn't claim to be a documentary.

so i think it -- i really enjoyed the movie. bly can talk to that too. >> we are speaking -- >> it was all filmed here in virginia. >> we are speaking live with bly straube and bill kelso from historic jamestown and taking your phone calls. the numbers are 202-737-0001 on the eastern and central time zones. 202-737-0002 for mountain and pacific. and we'll also read tweets if you use the handle @cspanhistory. elizabethtown, pennsylvania. this is patricia, go ahead. >> caller: hello. thank you for this program. i, too, have read your book, mr. kelso, and found it very interesting. i have two comments. one is relating to the previous caller. my husband is descended from pocahontas and john rolf through pocahontas' grandson -- granddaughter, excuse me, jane rolf, who married a man called robert bowling. my mother-in-law's late

mother-in-law was a bowling. a few moments ago the commentator said to you this was the church where pocahontas married john smith. and as you know more than i, it was john rolf she married. but i notice that a great many people make that mistake, thinking that pocahontas married john smith. it's a pity about that. i think john rolf kind of gets pushed to the background. thank you very much for this program. it's of great interest. >> thank you, patricia. >> thank you. >> let's go to ft. lauderdale. david's on our line in ft. lauderdale. hi, david, go ahead. >> caller: hi, dr. kelso, i would like you to comment, if you can, about the trend of american high schools starting american history off at 1870 instead of where we should be

the discovery or, rather, the colonization of america. they seem to be blowing off early colonization, the founding, and everything, all the rich history leading up to the reconstruction. we've been told by our chancellor that we have to start at 1870 starting two years from now and i'd like you to comment on that. >> wow. >> i think you should fight your chancellor. >> yes. >> get that -- there's so much that begins at jamestown. i just have to say, the representative assembly. what is a more important topic today than politics? and to go back and see, you know, that it just didn't all suddenly happen, you know, in the last 20 years i think it gives everyone a much better perspective of what's going on and affecting them in the present. and the past is prologue, they say, and i think that's very true.

and you need to -- people -- i think it's really, really awful that these history courses are being dropped. people don't understand what's going on, i don't think. >> it must be an important part of british history as well, bill kelso, because you're going to be recognized we understand in a couple of weeks or later this year as a commander of the order of the british empire. so certainly, the british have a keen interest in one of their early colonies. >> yeah. that's a comment. it's not really to me. it's to jamestown, jamestown is, if you think about it, it's the first permanent colony of the british empire. it's where it began. and from there the 13 colonies and finally it goes around the world and it's india and australia and it's huge. and of course the colonial empire, there was a lot of violence. there was a lot of unfairness and things that went on, but the traditions are out there. and it starts at jamestown. its language, rule of law,

representative government, goes -- and it's embedded in these countries now even though the british are gone. so it's -- i think that the honor points to that sort of thing than it does more to something just for me. >> we're showing our viewers some pictures of you and queen elizabeth visiting the site there. what year was that? >> yeah. 2007. the queen was here. and in two weeks i was given a notice that i was supposed to give her a one-on-one tour of the fort without crowds, you know, just very together. and she said, well, they said she wanted to have a reflective moment. and so, you know, i was kind of -- i was pretty petrified about that. what am i going to do? so anyway, i did mention as we came to the center of the fort that this is where the british empire began and she kind of almost -- she didn't wink, but i could just tell that that's why she was there and that's i was

standing there at that point and that's why she visited jamestown 50 years after she first visited jamestown as a matter of fact. >> here is burr ridge, illinois, and hello to anna. >> caller: hello? >> you're on the air, anna, go ahead. >> caller: oh, okay. hello to everyone. i wanted to know, have you found any remains of pocahontas and i wanted to know if you did, what age did she die of, young or older? >> pocahontas died in england and is buried in england, so we have not found any remains of pocahontas at jamestown. that's the straight answer. and she -- let's see, her age, what would her age be? >> early 20s. >> yeah, early 20s. >> tell us about some of the remains -- >> but she was buried at gray's end in england. >> tell us about some of the remains you have found there at jamestown. >> well, we have excavated a

number of burials. one of which i think the most important of which it was a burial of a captain. we know it was a captain because on the coffin what was left of the coffin there was what looked like a spear, but it turns out it's a leading staff which a captain would carry in front of his troops. and the remains are of a man that was age 36, and that's when the real mastermind according to john smith behind this whole operation here was a man by the name of captain bartholomew gosnold. people don't hear about it, he died that first summer. was only at a jamestown a few months. but he had connections to the crown to get the charter, to form the colony. and he had the connections with money, merchants in london to

finance the venture. so, a real unsung hero and i think that's probably of the one most important discoveries made. it's not absolutely positive it's him. we even did dna testing, but all of the evidence right now is circumstantial evidence, points to the fact that this captain was remains of gosnold. >> bly straube, outside of remains, what is the most significant find or group of finds that you've seen in your years there? >> oh, goodness. that's really a hard question. i'll tell you one of my favorites, though, it's a roman oil lamp from the first century a.d. and a real surprise. but an object that someone in england, in london, because it's a type of find you would find in roman london context, someone treasured it and brought it with them to the new world. >> let's hear from gillette, wyoming, next up. eric, hi there. >> caller: hi. my question is outside of the marriage of pocahontas to john smith, is there any

archaeological data regards to any other intermarriage or interbreeding with colonists with other native american women and subsequent offspring to that region? >> i think eric repeated my john smith/john rolf mistake. but go ahead. >> i know, i know. john rolf, not smith. no, we haven't. the burials that have been analyzed so far are european. by forensic studies, we could pin that down. there's really no -- we've never seen any native american burials here at this point. >> we have a question on twitter, bill kelso and bly straube that asks what would you like to see happen at dig sites when you have finished your

research? >> well, i can just speak to the site itself. we spent a lot of time trying to interpret the footprint that we find below ground of buildings and the shape of the fort and all without doing total reconstructions where we go to a point where we really don't some of the things the way the building looked. my first desire when i first came to this area 50 years ago was to come and walk on the grounds, walk the site of this first fort in 1607 fort, and i was told it was washed away in the river. but now people can do that. we'd have to do some three-dimensional markings for it to be interpreted. so i'm just hoping that in the future people can come here and they'll be able to understand it, understand this really hallowed place automatically by the way -- what we've put on the landscape. i don't know, bly might have more to say on that. >> we are going to spend the