the head protection without this part of it. this was found in a cellar that was first dug in 1607 and then filled in by 1617 when another structure was built on top of it. >> how many people were doing this work here? >> well, we have a pretty small staff. i'm the curator, and then i have an assistant who helps me with the processing of the material cataloging. and then we use quite a few volunteers to help in that process as well. especially in the washing and sorting out materials and numbering. but that takes a special person. they have to undergo a lot of training for that because they're very small numbers. we joke by the time we're through with them they can get jobs in the mall writing people's names on grains of rice. so we're training them for this future. and other staff members, my

besides my assistant are two conservators who work mostly on the iron artifacts. but any material that needs to be stabilize they'd will do. so that's the cura to rial side of things. >> my name is don warke. i'm wound telephone archaeologists on staff, but i do some conservation in the lab. what i'm doing this afternoon is conservation of lead objects we see on the site. lead also has to be preserved. it's a fairly simple process. a lead object will come into the lab, and depending upon how badly it corroded, we usually use a microscope with the procedure. basically, we'll take a scalpel and remove the service corrosion with the scalpel, using the microscope.

and after that's done, we take the object and put it into an acid bath. which removes the remaining surface corrosion from the object. we put it through a water rinse to remove all of the remaining acid. and then we put it in another solution that essentially finishes the process of the corrosion removal process. and then the lead object will go into a vacuum chamber or water or remaining water is essentially removed from it, it's totally dried, and then what we'll do is we'll take the object and put two protective clear coatings over it. so after that's done, it's basically hermetically sealed. it's not opened, exposed to the environment, and hopefully, it will remain in the condition

it's in while in perpetuity, and then possibly if the object is good enough, it might go into our museum. it's a pierced lead plate. now what they might have been using this for i really couldn't tell you. it could have -- you know, a strainer at the bottom of something possibly. i really couldn't say for sure. we'd probably have to research it. sword hilt. if you've seen swords, it's the basket. you'll grab the sword here and then the blade will come out this direction. it protects an individual if the another individual is slashing, trying to slash his hand, a hand guard. it will protect the hand. we found a number of those. michael is preserving this one.

i'm dan gamble, and i'm one of the conservators here at jamestown. i've been here about 11 years. this is michael lavin at the air abrasion unit. he's our senior conservator. and right now, he's working on a sword hilt. and the process that he's doing right now is called air abrasion. and basically, what it is it's a mini sand blaster. and instead of sand, we use aluminum oxide. and he's removing the rust from that artifact. you can see the big chunks of rust there are coming down to a darker layer, which we call the magnatite layer. that's the last true form of that artifact. so all of the rust, the heavy rust, will be removed. we use air abrasion probably

most out of all of the operations in conservation. and it's mostly used for just iron. we do everything from sword hilts, which you have here, to pieces of armor, to tools, to various other things. but it's the safest way to remove the rust that we had found. you can see that he's being very careful. he's not shooting directly at the artifact but is kind of shooting off to the side. and the rust is coming off somewhat easily, but it takes a little bit of work, a little bit of patience, and a lot of skill. takes a long time to develop the skills to be able to do a piece like that. it's normal for us to sit here eight hours a day doing this. and we enjoy it. we really, really enjoy it. and i'm holding a rapier hilt

that came out of what we're interpreting as our corps d' guard. i want to explain one of the processes that are vital to conservation and that's the use of the digital x-ray equipment in order to take a picture through this artifact to help guide us. we knew what it was when it came out of the ground, but it was corroded with all of this iron oxide. what we're aiming for is this nice and dark, almost black magnetite layer. so let's drop it into the x-ray machine. this is our digital x-ray cabinet. the x-ray source is up above. this does the majority of the artifacts that we find. the digital portion of it is the sensor, about 40 centimeters by 30 centimeters and the majority of the cost of this piece of equipment.

so we have already warmed it up. let me go ahead and turn it on. and instantly, the pictures should start appearing. now, what you're looking at is an x-ray through the artifact, and if you look at the sword guards here on the outside, the areas that are in bright white are where there's still some existing metal left, but the areas that are gray, that shows you that there's actually no metal in this. you can see the metal kind of ends right about there. and what that tells us is that we would not be able to

electrolacize this object. we would have to use air abrasion using the aluminum oxide under pressure, pushed through a very narrow carbide tip to blow away the surface corrosion product. and stopping at that black magnetite. there's only little pockets of iron, existing iron left, but this is a very important artifact and one that is most likely going to end up in the museum, complete rapier hilt from a fort period building. >> well, i have been working on the project since the beginning, since 1994, and gosh, i hope i retire still doing it. i think even if we should stop the project outside, there's still would be lots and lots of work to do inside. actually, archaeology of the future will be working with the collections that have been excavated in the past.

and we make discoveries in the lab. not everything is discovered in the field. i think people are under the misconception that all the discovery is in that moment outside, but it happens inside as well. and quite a lot, too. so yeah, there's enough to keep us going for a really long time. >> a complete piece.

>> you're watching american history tv on c-span 3. and joining us now live from the historic jamestown settlement, bill kelso, the director of the jamestown rediscovery project, the archaeological project, and senior curator, bly straube, who are going to spend the next hour with us. and taking your phone calls and your comments and questions as well. thank you to both of you for joining us on this beautiful saturday afternoon. we'd like to invite our viewers to be part of the conversation, obviously. here are the numbers to use. if you're in the eastern of central time zone, 202-737-0001. for viewers in mountain pacific zones, 202-737-0002. you can also participate by twitter. our handle is @c-spanhistory.

we'll try to read some of those tweets. we'll hear from bill and bly straube. i understand, bly, you have something with you that was discovered on the project today. can you show it to us and tell us what it is? >> yes. wonderful things show up all the time. today the archaeologists uncovered this wonderful medallion from a german stoneware bottle. made in germany near cologne. it's unique. we don't have one like it so i'll have to do research to figure out who it is depicting. it would have been a bottle that would contain beer or wine, so for alcoholic beverage. >> you had mentioned in the hour long preview, the documentary we just saw, that you had to learn how to read the artifacts 1 1/2 million artifacts you've uncovered in the last 20 years or so. what do you mean by reading it? what's the most important part of that? >> what i meant by that was that

i have to learn the context of each of the materials. why they were made, where they were made, what their purpose was, who may have carried them to jamestown, what their use may have been in jamestown. it may have been different from their original usage in england. and it becomes very complex when you try to put all those stories together, because each material type has a different kind of story to tell. >> we will get to our phone calls in just a moment. bill kelso, let me ask you a basic question about why you chose that spot in 1993 to start digging. why that spot on the james river? >> that's a fairly complex question. there were indications in historical records that one in particular said that the church of the early 17th century was in

the middle of the fort, and the one above-ground survivor from jamestown that we have is a brick church tower. so, i thought maybe in that vicinity there could be some remains of the fort. we also had, bly and others looked at some artifacts that what turned up inadvertently through utility trenches and things like that that seemed old enough, military things. and it was an area that just was not yet explored enough to say that this was where the fort was and conventional wisdom was that the fort had washed away on the western end of the island. we're not quite on the western end. but as it turned out, the fort not only did not wash away, but it's basically all here. >> we have callers waiting with questions and comments for both of you. let's go to jonathan in san diego. go ahead, jonathan. >> caller: good morning, or good

afternoon out there. two quick questions. in your taped piece mr. kelso mentioned that jamestown gets second billing if you will to plymouth in the mythology or the common knowledge of how the new world was colonized and i wonder if you could elaborate on that. and then second, he also mentioned the lost colony in roanoke, which even preceded jamestown. i'm wondering if there's any new work or any new findings down there that's of any interest. and thanks for putting on these type of programs. they're great. >> okay. your first -- the first question was what again? i didn't quite hear it. >> the first question was why does the jamestown settlement in his perception, i guess, quoting you from the -- >> plymouth, yeah, yeah. >> take a second billing to jamestown -- or to plymouth, rather, i'm sorry. >> well, yeah.

every year we have thanksgiving right? that just focuses again on plymouth, it's sort of an automatic thing. in the 19th century, the story of the earliest english settlement began to come from historians out of new england. and there was a lot of focus on that. although you do the math, jamestown was settled 1607, plymouth in 1620. and another thing is -- and then after the american civil war, the histories were also written mostly by the victors who, of course, was the northern states, so that had something to play in it. and also the site, the actual site, was gone whereas the town of plymouth exists. so without that physical evidence that we now have, i think the jamestown story was minute niced.

minimized. >> memphis, tennessee, is next -- eugenia, hang on a moment. >> go ahead, bill kelso, and finish your comments. >> well, the lost town, bly could speak to that, there's really exciting things that have been found just in the last few weeks. >> yes, it has to do with a map, 400-year-old map from the -- that has been in the british museum, and it's been recently discovered that there's a patch, very interesting patch, which when back lit was discovered underneath it was the outline of a fortification. and it happens to be in the area where historian jim horn believes the colonists from the lost colony went, the areas to which they went. and we've done some preliminary work there, found some interesting artifacts that looked like they could be 16th century, so this is all brand-new and we're just sort of on the cusp we think some pretty exciting discoveries. >> caller's from memphis next

eugenia, go ahead with your comments. >> caller: my husband's ancestors came to jamestown in 1616 and then we see him in elizabeth city, i find him in elizabeth city. and i wondered exactly where elizabeth city was in reference to jamestown. >> well, it's now where hampton modern hampton is. actually, virginia beach, it was a larger county at one point that took almost all of hampton roads. so it's not far from here, probably 20, 30 miles. >> raleigh, north carolina, next up is betty. go ahead with your comments. >> caller: hi, bly, this isty fitzgerald. ancient planters and we just had dr. earl imes, a curator from raleigh and we're all excited about what's going on the

pimlico. and we're excited when you come down, we'll see you in the fall, and i've been coming up there regularly. now, my question was, of course, i have the bellarmine jar, and that's what i'm doing my article on right now, b-e-l-l-a-r-m-i-n-e, you call it by another name and you also know why we don't celebrate -- well, we know some things that were done by henry adams but we don't use those names. you can't, but i can. why don't you use the word bellarmine jar? >> you want to fill us about betty's comments there. >> sure. we use the term bartman, which means bearded man, because the jugs actually have a face on the neck which has a bearded man. that's the german term. bellarmine is really a collector's term. it actually started in the 17th century. they began calling these jugs

bellarmines after cardinal bellarmino who was very upset with king james for the way he was treating the english catholics. and it was done in a sort of satirical way. the dutch and english protestants started to call the jugs that held alcohol bellarmines as a sort of jab at bellarmino. >> bill kelso, in a recent article you talked about your perception of the urgency to do much more archaeological work there at jamestown over the next 20 years because of the -- because of the rapid decomposition of materials and iron and things like that. how much work is left to be done at jamestown? >> it's indefinite. we have found recently that not only was it a one-acre triangular fort but it was expanded to the east, maybe doubled in size. we spent 19 years looking at

this one acre. and archaeology is a little bit slow, but we really haven't been that slow. but just because there's been so much here. and so it may have been originally a four-acre size fort. and so, you know, do the math there. and then the actual town developed to the east. throughout the time that this was the capital of virginia, almost 100 years, and that has only been just superficially looked at by the national park service archaeologists, so there's no -- i would say there is just an indefinite amount of area to look at in the future, far beyond my career, i would say. >> and your work is complicated there by the fact that that area was used as a civil war fort, fort pocahontas. >> right. yeah.

in 1861, the fort pocahontas was built by the confederate army. and it -- by wherever they scooped to get earth to put up bank to protect the guns, the original -- the original 1607 settlement was being disturbed. however, where they piled the dirt, that was preserved. but so we decided that we needed to see the most preserved part of the fort under the fort, and so we looked archaeologically at the earthworks first because you had to get through that to get to the earliest site. so, that's the reason that we had to remove some of the fort, but i'd say we dismantled it, because we recorded it all. and the artifacts that were in that dirt pile were unbelievable, as a matter of fact, too. now, as far as preservation goes, and the time limit, i'd

say we know for one fact that the armor and arms and the metal objects are probably going to be gone. because what we find there's not a whole lot left of them if they're in dirt deposits. whereas when that confederate earthwork was built, some armor was found that had survived. we can compare the two and see it's in much better shape. there's real metal in the part that was found in 1861 and now, you know, it's almost gone. that's the urgency. plus the burials, too, will be gone. >> let's go back to the callers. dallas, texas, is next. chase, good afternoon. >> caller: thank you. would you comment, sir, of your examination of the forensic remains of those skeletons, the stature of these men. it looks to me like john smith was kind of small. was that exceptional? how big were these guys? thanks. >> well, they tend to be shorter

on average. but not a whole lot. and we have just finished studying a large number from a major burial ground that proves this. we're getting more statistics on that. >> i think that the whole thing about john smith being small, i've searched and searched and have not found any documentation that actually says how tall he was. and i think it all kind of stems from this illustration that was done when he is fighting a native. and the native is towering over him and he's sort of below. and i think it was done on purpose to make it look like david and goliath, that john smith was really super worthy to defeat this native. but i don't really think that he was any shorter than anyone, the average person. >> and the site of the jamestown settlement there is the site -- the church there was where james

-- john smith married pocahontas, correct? >> yes. uh-huh. we found that site, started finding it two years ago and excavated it through the end of last year. it's a super important place. because the wedding is interesting. and it's interesting to know exactly where pocahontas stood at one point which would be right in front of the altar. but the marriage itself ended what was called the first paletine war. so a period of peace went after that because -- as long as paletin lived, that is. it's a very significant find and a significant event. >> the next caller's from note tommy nutoma, kansas. carine, hello. >> caller: thank you. i teach fifth grade history.

and i wonder what are most important topics that i should relate to my students. and if you have know suggestions for resources besides the dvd from today, i'd be interested in knowing those suggestions. >> well, that's a huge question. i don't have my bibliography with me. but i know that there is one volume -- well for fifth grade, i guess it would be a little complicated. but there's a volume of original documents that teachers might want to look at before they talk to their students. it's called "jamestown narratives." and it collected most of the original eyewitness accounts of the first 15 13 to 15 years, these things that were written about jamestown. the most important things, of course, i think really is the park and partially a national park because the first representative assembly met here and the virginia assembly is still meeting since 1619 and also the first africans came to this country in 1619, same date.

so our diversity that we have, our diverse nation begins here. and bly, you might speak to other important things. >> yes. well, i think some of the most important discoveries have come up through the archaeology. and you can get some of that information from our website, the historic jamestown website. we try to put videos of our recent findings and interpretation of the artifacts. a real important thing to get across to children is that we didn't start with a bunch of lazy gentlemen who would rather bowl in the streets than work to sustain the colony. we have found a very completely different picture here. it was a very active, vibrant place. >> bly straube, in our tour through your archaeology lab, i notice a lot of flags from foreign countries. what were they about? >> yes. i placed flags near the ceramics from the different countries where they were produced to show the visitors how diverse and varied. we have materials from turkey,

china, portugal, france, italy, germany. so it's not all material from england. this is a very cosmopolitan world. people are connected and they're collecting the best wherever they can find it. >> calling from nearby hampton, virginia, we say hello to russ. >> caller: hello. first i wanted to say it's wonderful to watch something like this. i taught some online colonial history courses and i live down here as a retired army officer in hampton. dr. kelso mentioned the important date when lord delaware turned back the colonists who were evacuating the failed colony at jamestown. and he -- lord delaware had actually landed at fort algernon on point comfort which is today's fort monroe, which has just become a national monument. my question is to what extent dr. kelso feels that any

investigation by the national park service where ft. algernon and later ft. george was, would maybe possibly reveal some of the great findings that he's had at jamestown. >> well, i don't want to say anyone that it couldn't be found, you know, the actual site, because it's there somewhere. i got to study that. and the area where the fort was first built, algernon, it was sort of on a sandy spit. all this has been built up over the years. and exactly where at ft. lenore you can find it and then, of course, the construction that is going on at ft. monroe has just been astounding. to build the fort and all the buildings and to bring landfill in and so on. it would be complicated, but it's not impossible. i'd be the last one to say it's impossible to find the fort.

>> here is rochester, new york. and patricia -- excuse me, david on the line. hi. >> caller: hi, thank you. dr. kelso, i read your book. i recommend it to everybody. it makes archaeology exciting like a detective story and i recommend it to everybody. >> good. >> caller: quick questions. i have a neighbor whose name is jim rolf, and he claims he's a descendant of john rolf, is this possible? second, did you have anything to do with the movie "the new world" and how accurate do you think it is? thank you. >> okay. there are a lot of direct descendants of pocahontas and john rolf. did you say his name is rolf? i think you did. >> i think he did. >> it's possible he is related. i think it's possible you're related. now, "the new world" yes, we were all a advisers, bly and a were advisers for that. i think itcc